Talk:York/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Untitled

"York is steeped in history and culture, mixing old and new seamlessy and makeing it the most desirable place to live in the north of england."

While I thoroughly agree with the above, as the rest of the North IMO is festering shithole, it could hardly be more POV especially as it comes straight from a promotional website. Should it be here??? --JamesTheNumberless 17:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Look forward to seeing your contribution to the Lake District article, James ("The Lake District, in common with the rest of the North of England, and unlike Canvey Island, is a festering shithole").  :-)

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I know that there's more to York than the tourist side, but York has a vast wealth of folklore. It might be good to put some of that in here. Maybe not all of it, but certain items (such as Clifford's Tower) will help, I think.

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I removed Mrandyc's section on Local Politics and Activism. Granted, such a section would be useful, but a stub paragraph like that isn't really the best way to 'request' one. --Darac Marjal 11:29, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Roman emperors

I notice that the article about York says that "the only other city in which an emperor has been proclaimed is in Rome itself". I also notice that the article about Carnuntum (a town in nowadays Austria) says that "Septimius Severus, at the time governor of Pannonia, was proclaimed emperor there by the soldiers (193)". I feel there's something wrong here, but I am not an expert in roman history: is there someone that can clarify this out?

Interestingly, Severus died in York, just to keep the connection. A little research suggests that Severus was acclaimed emperor by his soldiers in Pannonia as listed under Carnuntum (http://www.roman-emperors.org/sepsev.htm) but the soldiers garrisoned in Rome acclaimed Didius Julianus, and Severus went to Rome to put forward his claim, and won out.

Constantine's father, Constantius, died in York and Constantine was instantly proclaimed emperor by his soldiers, but again he had to travel to Rome to squash a rival claim. (http://www.roman-emperors.org/conniei.htm).

Given all of that, I'm not convinced I can see a difference between the two instances. It is a fact often quoted about York, so is it worth leaving it in with appropriate disclaimers until someone who knows more about it happens along... Brickie 16:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

King's Manor

I'm sure this is in the city centre, rather than the suburbs- can anyone else confirm this...? Vanky 17:01, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is indeed within the city centre. I'm from York, and I can confirm that it's inside the inner ringroad, close to high petergate and the thratre royal

Technically it is outside both the inner ring-road and the city walls but I would hardly call it "suburbs". (The inner ring road runs pretty much past it so it is only JUST outside). http://www.york.ac.uk/np/maps/kmdirect.htm shows a map --Richard Clegg 23:34, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah.. It's just accross the road from the wall... Vanky 00:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Closer than that! St. Leonard's Place is a breach in the wall - the wall restarts alongside the King's Manor. Ian Dalziel 18:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

revert

I changed the disambiguation line back from "historic english county town" to "English City". Historic is a meaningless term, and York is a City. Hughcharlesparker 13:11:45, 2005-08-20 (UTC)

And besides, it's not a county town. Northallerton is the County Town for North Yorkshire. Brickie 16:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Census data

I included the 2001 census data for the population, and have referenced it. The other number doesn't seem to have had a reference.Alun 09:36, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The Retreat

I think it is confusing saying the retreat is in the walmgate area of the city. Most people (inc tourists) would assume this meant it is on Walmgate (street) which is inside the walls and a fair distance from its actual location on Heslington Road, on the boundary of the university. It is worth noting that The Reteat is adjacent to Walmgate Stray, however this is no way as well known as the street. MarkerPen 22:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - I was a student at York and lived there for 8 years. There is no way anyone with any local knowledge would say The Reatreat is in the Walmgate area of the city. --Zaphod Beeblebrox 02:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Edited MarkerPen 21:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Roman York

Removed the term "the Celtic Eboracum" (which was a hangover from a derivation previously removed) because it suggests a Celtic town.

Roman York is believed to have been built on a greenfield site - there is no trace of any habitation of the Brigantes.

Ian Dalziel 17:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I heard somewhere that the Brigantes may not have lived on the site of York, but it had been named - Eborakon, "Place of the Yew Trees" - as it was a river crossing and therefore a significant landmark. So the Roman name Eboracum is a Latinised rendering of Eborakon, which isn't quite what the original text said, but they were on the right lines.

However, I'm not sure to what extent "I heard somewhere" is a citable source on Wikipedia, so I'll leave the article be for the time being... :) Brickie 16:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at Roman Britain; but then can they be regarded as definitive? Kbthompson 16:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Claudius Ptolemaeus described it as one of the nine Brigantian poleis in the Geographia.[1] It may have been minimal, but there are sources from closer to their time to say it was Brigantian first, the Roman evolvement of it is undeniably huge though, they made it the joint-capital of Roman Britain, they helped it grow, without the Romans, York might still be a small village like Aldborough, North Yorkshire (which was the Brigantes capital!). - Yorkshirian 21:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The books I've read say that there is currently not archeological evidence of a pre-roman settlement at York, although there has been one found at Naburn. If there has been any evidence found it would be very interesting. If there were any contemporary sources that say that York was a pre-Roman settlement then I'd expect the history books dealing with the founding of York to mention this. Ptolemy is thught to have written between 127 and 148 A.D. which is at least 50 years after Eboracum was founded as a Roman town so it is not supprising it is listed but this does not indicate that it was a pre-Roman settlement. What he says is Below the Selgovae and Otalini are the Brigantes extending to both seas, among whom are the following towns and lists Eboracum, this seems to be just an identification of the name of the people who occupy the area and listing the towns in that particular geographical area. It doesn't make any mention of who founded these towns or if they were any settlements in the area of the towns in pre-roman times. The rest of the geography is in the same form listing the Roman name of peoples in an area and the towns. --Kaly99 22:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

Is there any evidence for the Celtic derivation? There was no Celtic town - the Romans could conceivably have adopted a name given to the fort by the indigenous population, but what evidence is there? -- Ian Dalziel 23:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The indigenous population were Celts?

New York named after York?

The article currently asserts that New York is named after York. This link asserts that New York was named after the Duke of York, the later James II.

And the WP article History of New York City (prehistory-1664) says the same. --GuillaumeTell 01:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Even so, the Duke of York was thus Duke of the City of York, and therefore New York was still named after the City of York, England. The "Duke of York" was just one of his titles and "York" was not James II's name, he was of the House of Stuart, making him James Stuart. So, it is perhaps best to say that they named New York after the City of York in honour of James, the then king's brother. Thus, I would also say that the article History of New York City (prehistory-1664) is slightly misleading. --Dotjay 11:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I'm quite happy to believe History of New York City (prehistory-1664) is correct in saying that New York was named in honour of the Duke of York, that cannot be the whole story as otherwise New York would have called York or Yorkville or some such. The New only makes sense in the context of there being an Old York. -- Chris j wood 14:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

One further twist on this. According to this page from the New York Senate, it was actually the colony of New York (the current state of New York, formerly the Dutch colony of the New Netherlands, give or take New Jersey) that was named after the Duke of York in 1664. The city of New Amsterdam did not become New York City until 1674, so arguably it was simply named after the colony. -- Chris j wood 18:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Question

In singer Omar Ebrahim's bio, it says that he's from "Greasbrough, York, England." Is this a neighborhood, or else a small town elsewhere in Yorkshire? Badagnani 22:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not very near York at all (maybe an hour's drive), and it's a village rather than a small town - see [2]. The nearest big town is Rotherham and the nearest city is Sheffield. The red circle on this Multimap shows you where it is. --GuillaumeTell 15:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I've made a page for Greasbrough with the relevant information. I've also informed the Internet Movie Database that their listing that he's from "Greasbrough, York" is incorrect; should be South Yorkshire. Badagnani 21:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

ghosts

on what basis is the following statement founded?:

"It is also claimed to be one of the most haunted cities in Europe."

claimed by whom?

what is the "hauntedness" index based on - number of sightings per capita, resident ghosts per square mile, the official ghost census?

this is nonsensical and has no place in a serious encuclopaedia.

i have removed it. (i'll put it back when someone shows me the names of more ghosts living in York than the next most haunted town or city, wherevr that might be)--Neal 16:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the follwoing links will be of use:

• A BBC North Yorkshire arcticle claiming York to be the most haunted city in the world following research by the Ghost Research Foundation International: http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/uncovered/ghost/most_haunted.shtml

• Paranormal database claiming York is the most haunted city in England, if not Europe:http://www.paranormaldatabase.com/yorkshire/Pages/yorkshire.htm

• An online travel guide claiming York to be the most haunted city in Euroep: http://www.e-travelguide.info/York/index.htm

• Another site mentioning the GRFI survey putting York as the most Haunted city in the world:

http://www.ghosts-uk.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=182

Hope these help. Evil Eye 09:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is the specific source for York at "Paranormal Database"; http://www.paranormaldatabase.com/yorkshire/Pages/york.php - Yorkshirian (talk) 16:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Mediaeval/medieval

Now that Grtjustini has changed one of the occurrences of "mediaeval" in this article to "medieval", I'm rather inclined to change the other five, too. I don't think that either spelling is exclusively British or American, and, to me, "mediaeval" has a sort of 1930s Merry England or current Young fogey feel to it. And I notice that a Google search of Wikipedia has 1m+ occurrences of "medieval", and fewer than 40,000 occurrences of "mediaeval". If no-one objects, I'll make the changes next weekend. --GuillaumeTell 00:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't shoot

Yes, I'm aware I may have caused some frustration in doing such a major overhaul of the page, but I feel it was necessary, and hopefully it has resulted in a better and more readable page. Hopefully at some point very soon, this page will become the backbone of a WikiProject:York, along with all related pages (see Wikipedia:Wikiproject/List of proposed projects for more). I hope this project will facilitate the eventual creation of an Open-Source Tourist Guide to York. In the meantime, I hope the new layout works.

--Graham Martin 06:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem as far as I'm concerned - too many general articles in Wikipedia illustrate the old saying that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. The History of York article needs more work, especially for recent centuries, and I hope to do some of that.

I'm a bit bothered by the section on the Quakers, which I feel would be better as a separate article - it sticks out as anomalous rather more in the new framework than it did in the old ragbag. --GuillaumeTell 11:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

OK -- but we seem to have lost an awful lot of information -- particularly in the history section. I know you have linked a main article there but when I see that done in other articles it is usual to include a summary of the main points. At the moment the article looks horribly denuded. Can I suggest that the History section is expanded, perhaps not back to what it was but at least to some summary of the main points in the town's history. The "origin of name" and "Quakers" section might be usefully incorporated in a history section. At the moment it seems like only the dull bits of the article are left. --Richard Clegg 11:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Graham, thanks for your work on this, but the history section needs fixing; we need more than three sentences on the history of a city like York, even in summary style! I suggest that we merge back History of York into the article for now. — Matt Crypto 17:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a couple more sentences to the History section in here - it wants to be fairly concise as there's a separate article, but it did seem to sort of shudder to a halt with mention of the Viking kingdom. A couple of sentences stating that York was a major city in England until the Industrial Revolution, and that said revolution largely passed the city by, leaving its medieval buildings intact, hence the tourism, seemed to do the trick. Any thoughts? Brickie 17:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

PICTURES

I doubt two pictures of Clifford's Tower is necessary, but I'm afraid I'll screw something up if I mess with it. Can someone remove the extra picture? Wingnutmax 01:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

City quirks

Possible additional section? There are many weird and wonderful things about York - lived there for the last six years. As mentioned above, there's loads of history, many stories of ghosts, etc. This means there's quite a lot of quirky events, festivals, etc. Another quirk is the many cat statuettes and other decorative cats around the city. We have a site dedicated to them (catsinyork.org.uk), which may be worth considering as just one addition. --Dotjay 11:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Sport section

Sorry to butt in, I 'watched' this page because I made a small addition to the 'see also' on York Mystery Plays (should you have anything you can add to that subject, please feel free).

I noticed this AM (due to changes), that there's quite an extensive 'match report' on York City. There is already an extensive article on York City, elsewhere, and here I would suggest "York City is York's football team in the Nationwide Conference" - with substantive information about the team being in that article. Placing it in two places, just makes it more difficult to keep up to date. Just a suggestion. Kbthompson 08:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree - it's excessive. Just a couple of sentences would be sufficient. Do go ahead Kbthompson and pare it down. A bit iffy 09:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Nightlife in York.

User:Yorkie99 wrote quite an extensive section on the subject, I reverted because I felt it was in the wrong place, but it wasn't quite vandalism, so I quote it (in full) here:

York has a large and vibrant nightlife with many people, including many stag and hen parties from the north east choosing to a night on the town in York. With its close proximity to Newcastle, Leeds and with the huge crowds that come to the races, most bars and clubs are full most nights. There are many many bars and pubs in York on both sides of the river. There is the legendary Mickelgate run with has many bars down it,including the popular Montys Rock Cafe and Rumours, aswell at the nightclubs Ziggys and Toffs. At the bottom are the clubs Nexus, the newly opened BPM, Flares and Reflex. On the other side of the river are hundreds of bars including a posh set of bars overlooking the river, including Bar 38, Orgasmic and Pitcher and Piano. Elsewhere there is a Varsity, a Yates,a Scream bar popular with students, the Evil Eye that offeres strong vodka shots and the bar Lendal Cellars next to the river. There is another posh section of bars, including Kennedys, Oscars, Slug and Lettice, The Biltmoor,and Vodoo Lounge. For younger types, back down near the river are the student friendly Lowther and Plonkers. Near Plonkers is the legandary Stone Roses bar which is known for quality music both live and from the DJ and football players from Leeds United and York City are regularly seen in there. To finish the night for younger student types is The Gallery nightclub, which is a largish club with two floors. One is for pop/cheese/dance whereas downstairs offers various forms of indie music and on one night has a hip hop night.

It's up to others to make the decision, but at the very least, it should find an appropriate section.Kbthompson 23:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we need a list of every pub in york. If that many are listed (as above) it will pave the way for every other pub to be mentioned also -- the article would be huge. Mdcollins1984 10:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

i think the section is worthy of going into the main article, as many people do come to York for nights out and the article justs gives information on what places there are to go and tells people where they are. Maybe remove some of the pu b names, but i would suggest leaving in the names of the nightclubs. (unsigned by York99 at 12:56, 15 November 2006 When editing, see Sign your name).

Hi, it is a well written guide to the nightlife, but as I was saying, the purpose of this page is as an encyclopaedia. Information like that is best placed in a York entry with Wikitravel (link to York); and much easier to keep up to date. I hope you will contribute, and we can find an appropriate place for this contribution. Cheers Kbthompson 13:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

couldnt a title of Nightlife be put in the main page of York and instead of having the article, have a link to the article in wikitravel?

-

I have just deleted the entire nightlife section, because (a) it read like a tourist guide and (b) lots of it wasn't true. "A large and vibrant nightlife"? Most bars full most nights? EIGHT clubs? If someone else wants to rewrite the section, go ahead, but the large number of pubs is York's most distinctive 'nightlife' feature, and that has been dealt with elsewhere.

Other edits I just made include deleting Judi Dench as a 'current inhabitant' - as far as I am aware she's not (and I'm fairly dubious as to keeping the Duke of York connection), and removing a bunch of peacock terms. 88.110.69.81 18:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization and grammar

There's been some great work on capitalization. I am left unsure about northern Europe and northern England. In the articles themselves, these are written as capitals (Northern). However, this assumes it is a place in its own right rather than the northern part of England or Europe. I would be interested in other's thoughts on this. --Vince 12:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The general Wikipedia rule is that the first word of the title of an article has to begin with a capital (there's one exception that I know about, but I think that's been faked somehow), but that subsequent words may or may not be capitalised, depending on various factors, and there is sometimes inconsistency there. A search, however, will retrieve an article if the first (or only) word is all typed in lower-case, but subsequent words are case-sensitive. So a search for northern England will retrieve Northern England, but northern england won't retrieve anything unless there's a redirect. You're quite right to put "northern" in lower-case in this article for the reason that you state. There are other cases where a link to an article has to be piped because the capitalisation of words other than the first one doesn't fit properly in the sentence in which they occur. A few edits ago, I had to pipe Rowntree Trusts because the article is (not very sensibly, IMO) is called Rowntree trusts. Hope this is moderately intelligible! --GuillaumeTell 17:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. However, my question was more about whether the northern part of England can be considered as a place in its own right and thereby be called Northern England. For example, one would say northern York but Northern Ireland. Incidentally, I did not know that Rowntree trusts existed so I have moved it to Category:York --Vince 19:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the northern England and northern Europe articles both rightly point out that these terms are vague and/or have had different meanings over time. Northern Ireland is another matter... --GuillaumeTell 21:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Coppergate

There were some Anglo-Saxon/Viking antiquities found at a place called "Coppergate, York," but I'm not sure where that is. Should it have its own article? Is it a neighborhood within the city limits? All I can find about it on the Internet is something called the Coppergate shopping center. Badagnani 01:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Coppergate is a short street in York between Nessgate and Pavement. In the mid 70s, some buildings adjacent to it and extending as far as the castle area and Piccadilly - a school, a sweet factory, a cinema, etc. - were demolished and the archaeologists moved in, as they do in York, and indeed a whole lot of antiquities were found. The site became the Coppergate Centre, an architecturally drab and non-notable (IMO!) shopping precinct, but it contains the Jórvík Viking Centre which is a major tourist attraction (and well worth visiting). There is some detail about this in the Jórvík article, but really the Centre needs its own Wikipedia article, as Jórvík is mostly about the historical period when that was what York was called. Then someone will have to work out which articles that link to Jórvík ought to link instead to the Centre and revise their links... could take a day or two! --GuillaumeTell 10:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Great info. If these things were found in just one street, I wonder what else might lie beneath in York and elsewhere in England! I have a video clip of an archaeologist playing a set of wooden Viking panpipes and showing various other things found there, including a tuning key for some sort of string instrument. Badagnani 10:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a note to say that I've now created JORVIK Viking Centre with material removed from the Jórvík article and stuff from the Centre's site and printed sources. --GuillaumeTell 18:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Photo Gallery

I've added a photo gallery onto the page and unless anyone has any objections I'm planning to move some of the photos that don't directly tie into the subjects covered on the page into it. If anyone has different ideas about ways of improving the presentation of pictures on the page it'd be great to hear them. Kaly99 20:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Clifton? Notorious?

*Steve Oliver, (presenter of 'The Pod' and noted music promoter) once spent some time living in York's notorious 'Clifton' district. 
He worked a as postman in East Parade, Heworth.

Clifton may not be everyone's cup of tea but 'notorious'? Obviously a PoV. Actually, '...once spent some time living in York's notorious 'Clifton' district...." and "...worked a as postman in East Parade..." are rather tenuous reasons for including someone (who I've never heard of btw) in an article about York in an encyclopaedia. And it's not verifiable, I cannot find any online source to check this against. Suggest that the entire entry is deleted. --Malcolmxl5 01:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it. On checking the user contribution, I find that this IP, presumably Mr Oliver, has been placing similar entries in every town that he has once lived in! I also find that he has an alter ego Podmaster2 where he has attempted to create a page about himself, some work he's doing, and some pantomime that he was once involved with! --Malcolmxl5 01:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Capital of the North

I don't want to start repeatedly changing other peoples edits so I thought I'd explain the reason I changed the information about York as the capital of the North. When the council of the north was in York was the Capital of the North, it was where the seperate government of the northern parts was based.

There's a weblink to the information about York being the capital of the North on the Tourist bureau website [3] and York by Richard Hall also talks about York as the base for the government of the north (Pages 45 and 90)

Unless there are sources that have different information I think the lead needs to be changed for accuracy.

Also I haven't seen any references to it being regarded as the capital during the early medieval or medieval periods but it seems to be in current use to describe the city.

--Kaly99 19:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Confusion on population.

The article seems very confused on what the population of York is. The article lede says:

The York urban area has a population of 137,505 while the entire unitary authority has a population of 184,900.

The section on demographics says:

The population of York is about 181,000.

The infobox says:

Population (2005 est / Urban 2006) - U.A. & City 186,800

Even given the differences between urban area and city, and between 2001 census and 2005/2006 estimates, these cannot all be correct.

The only one that cites a verifiable source is the demographics section, which cites the ONS Neighbourhood Statistics page on York, that gives a population for the local authority area in the 2001 census of 181,094 (which I guess is indeed 'about 181,000').

It is anybody's guess where the other figures actually come from. If you know, can you please add cites. Thanks. -- Chris j wood 10:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had a look and the 2006 estimate for the population of the York unitary Authority area is listed as 191,800 and 189,700 for 2005 on the Office of National Statistics website [4]. I feel it would be worth replacing the figures in the article with the 2006 figures as the most up to date but I can't find a seperate figure for the urban area for 2006 so the figure of 137,505 would need a seperate citation mentioning the year it applies to or removing. --Kaly99 18:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Quaker involvement in the city section

This section seems to stand out on its own, I think it might be better to move it to the History of York article or a new section on religion in York could be added to the article and some of the material incorporated into that. A section on religion would mean the information about the different denominations of Christianity active in the City could be included and allow York's Mosque and other religions to be mentioned. Has any got any opinions on this --Kaly99 22:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that History of York is the place. I'd vote for a section on religion in York, probably a summary of a main article which has its own page and links to/from History of York. There's stuff to be written about early and later Christianity, Roman Catholicism, non-conformism (Wesley and the Unitarians as well as the Quakers), different sections within the C of E (e.g. the St Michael-le-Belfry people), theological colleges .... --GuillaumeTell 01:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a great idea. I couldn't quite see how it would fit into the History of York article and there's definately enough information for an article. --Kaly99 22:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I've made an article Religion in York and I'll create a summary section in the main York article once it has some more information in it to summerise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaly99 (talk • contribs) 20:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Map of the City

I was looking for an inner-city kinda map to create with the neighbourhoods, but the only ones I can find "misses out" some areas... namely Tang Hall[5]. - Yorkshirian (talk) 17:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

That looks like a map of local government wards - Tang Hall is probably a sub-district in the Heworth ward. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 22:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:York/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Although the article has no in-line references, there is so much info here that I had to rate it as B-Class. Sections/sub-sections need juggled a bit, infobox needs to be standardised (a job for WPCities maybe) and then the article should be submitted for peer review - its going on for GA status. --Mal 05:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Priority would be to sort out the references. Then go for an independant review to see if it can get GA status. Keith D 21:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)