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Talk:Yu Shan

Latest comment: 3 years ago by 118.150.131.136 in topic References
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How High Is Yu Shan in Taiwan?

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Posted on WP:RD:
My Webster's Geographical Dictionary gives Yu Shan's height at 13,113 feet (3,997 meters) when the article Jade Mountain says it is 12,962 feet (3,952 meters). Anyone clarify? PedanticallySpeaking 18:53, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC) Two replies posted there:

  • Britannica (2002) says 13,113 feet also. Incidentally, they spell it with an umlaut over the u. - John Fader
  • Although both the Chinese and Japanese wikipedias say 3952m. Maybe one number is a result of a re-survey? - John Fader

Posted on WP:RD:

  • I went through my books and found many disagreeing answers. The following sources had these listed for its height:
  1. Columbia Encyclopedia, 1st ed. (1940), "over 14,000 feet" in the article "Niitakayama"
  2. Colubmia Encyclopedia, 1st ed. (1940), "about 14,000 feet" in the article "Mount Morrison"
  3. Brittanica (1941): 12,939 feet in the atlas
  4. Brittanica (1941): 14,720 feet in the article "Formosa" (v. 9, p. 514)
  5. Webster's New Int'l Dict., 2d ed. (1957): 13,599 feet
  6. New Catholic Encyclopedia: 13,599 feet (v. 13, p. 916)
  7. Brittanica (1974): 3997 meters
  8. Hammond World Atlas (1989): 3997 meters/13,113 feet
  9. Times Atlas, 8th ed. (1990): 3997 meters
  10. National Geographic Atlas, 7th ed. (1990): 3997 meters
  11. Columbia Encyclopedia, 5th ed. (1993): 3997 meters/13,113 feet
  12. Whitaker's Almanac (1996): 13,035 feet

Finally, the official Central Geological Survey of Taiwan's site (here) says 3952 meters, which is what the original article says and the Taiwanese should know. But isn't remarkable the range of these answers, varying by 1,700 feet? PedanticallySpeaking 14:34, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

I remember reading in a Taiwanese newspaper a decade ago that the Jade Mt is getting shorten because its peak is melting/crumbling, or something.......I cannot remember why or any details at all. --Menchi 00:49, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Columbia Encylc has separate articles on Mt Morrison and Niitakayama? Aren't they the same thing? --Menchi 00:51, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Climb Every Mountain

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Posted on User talk:Menchi:
Salve, Menchi! I saw your comment on the height of Jade Mountain re the Columbia Encyclopedia. "Niitakayama" and "Mount Morrison]] are the same thing as Yu Shan and the book does indeed have articles at both names for the mountain rather than a cross-reference. Another example of how you need to look every place information could be and not assume the editors and indexers know what they're doing. Ave! PedanticallySpeaking 15:29, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

山: 'Yama' or 'San'?

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Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

"Japanese called the mountain Niitakayama (新高山)" I was under the impression, after reading the page on Mt Fuji, that the appellation 'yama' was an old incorrect translation that refuses to die. Edit? Mang 10:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

This is the case for "Fujiyama" (should be "Fujisan"), but not necessarily for all other mountains. Bubbha 17:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think the history of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor is significant evidence that "Niitakayama" was correct. The Japanese would hardly have used the wrong name for what was (at the time) their highest mountain. Jsc1973 (talk) 20:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Name of article

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Latest comment: 5 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

I'm wondering why this article is named "Jade Mountain", when AFAIK that name (i.e. the translation of Yu Shan into English) is not used by English-language sources. I have always seen it as "Yu Shan" or "Yü Shan". So unless there is some good reason for having it under "Jade Mountain", I would propose a move. -- Spireguy 19:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

yeah go ahead and use the more common term . Blueshirts 18:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
I moved the page, to "Yu Shan." Let me know if anyone thinks it should be "Yü Shan" or "Yu Shan (Taiwan)" or something else. -- Spireguy 21:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
On the chinese wiki it says Yu Shan is part of the Yu Shan mountain range, not Central mountain range. Blueshirts 06:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Can someone comment on whether it has to be "Yushan" or "Yu Shan"? According to http://pinyin.info/news/2008/hanyu-pinyin-and-proper-nouns/ -> PDF -> section 2.2 it should be written separately. So why is the page title in one word? --JensMueller (talk) 18:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
It should be Yu Shan because it is two separate words, but I object to some of the wording in the intro to this article. It is sloppy and very opinionated. I will propose a rewrite in a few days and post it here for feedback. ludahai 魯大海 (talk) 10:15, 2 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
It should be Yushan because it is a single name (as Huangshan, Donghai, or the first page of your source) and it's become standard to only break off the parts of names if they get longer than two or three characters (Taiping Yang, Shanghai Shi, Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo) or are so famous that the parts make sense to English speakers as separate words (Chang Jiang, Qin Shi Huang).
Your source looks like it's just some people opining. For example, afaik, the absolutely proper form of official pinyin should be "Yu shan" ("Shanghai shi", "Zhonghua renmin gongheguo", &c.) because the people making the rules preferred French to English style capitalization; almost no English-language sources use pinyin that way. Your source would make it "Yu Shan", but on what authority? If it is an official government source for proper, official, and newly revised pinyin (which Pinyin's article doesn't support), you can take it over to WP:MOS-ZH and talk them into making it formal Wikipedia style policy. Minor points like this, Wikipedia can drive change in other people's understanding and use. — LlywelynII 07:33, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Sources for future article expansion

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Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

More about the mountain's names and history at the Taiwan Today source for the Mt Morrison info. — LlywelynII 06:07, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Historical Names and Heights

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Suggesting to add statements before "Under the Qing Dynasty...":

Yu Shan (Patungkuonʉ in Tsou, and Usavi, Usaviah, or Tongku Saveq in Bunun, meaning "jade mountain" or "the highest mountain" in the languages). [1] [2]: 187 


The earliest known written description of the mountain as 'Yu Shan' (Hanzi [zh]: "玉山", meaning "jade mountain") was in Taiwanfoo Chorography (Jiang edition) (zh:台灣府志 [ 蔣志 ]) in 1685[3] and Diary of Searching Sulfur (zh:裨海紀遊) in 1697. [4][1]


In the article section "Names" the statement

It was previously known in English as Mount Morrison,[3] a name sometimes mistakenly thought to honor the missionary Robert Morrison, but actually simply the name of an American captain who sighted it...

In section "History" the statement

Under the Qing Dynasty, W. Morrison, captain of the American steam freighter Alexander, sighted the mountain while departing from Anping Harbor (present-day Anping, Tainan) in 1857. His log was the first western mention of the mountain, which took his name in European accounts.

During the later half of 19th century, in his book of the expedition to Formosa in 1873-1874, Prof Joseph Beal Steere stated that the Westerners named the highest mountain in Formosa "Mount Morrison" to honor the well-known missionary Rev Robert Morrison. [5] In his well-known books about Taiwan "Formosa under the Dutch" published in 1903, and "Sketches from Formosa" published in 1915, Rev Dr William Campbell stated that stating Mount Morrison was not named after the well-known pioneer missionary of that name was a mistake.[6][7]

The word "mistakenly" in the article is suggested to be removed. It was recorded in Taiwan Christianity Church Journal (Presbyterian Church) that the name Mt Morrison was to honor Rev Robert Morrison by British Royal Navy Admiral Sir Richard Collinson in 1844. [8]

Other source stated that it was named after himself by Alexander Morrison, the agent in Takaw [zh] and Taiwanfoo [zh] branch of Jardine, Matheson & Co in 1859-1864. [9] [10]


Any stories later than 1845 contradict to known physical evidences. Early 19th century stories of western skippers of vessels trading to Formosa, where was not yet opened for trading, were very unlikely, until the time of the first foreign traders to Formosa with an under-table exclusive personal deal between some American merchants and Taiwan Circuit (zh:台灣道) Intendant (Tao-tai or Dao-tai, Hanzi: zh:道台) Yu Duo (zh:裕鐸) on June 27 1855,[11][12] and Treaty of Tientsin in 1858. Yu Shan had already been labeled as "Mt Morrison" on variety of charts derived from surveys before 1855. For examples, chart of "Formosa Island" published by British Royal Navy in 1845 [13], which was based on British Royal Naval hydrographic surveys by Admiral Sir Richard Collinson in 1841-1845 (the first modern survey of Taiwan east coast)[14]; "Chart of the Coast of China" derived from the same surveys commercial printed in 1855;[15] "The Island of Formosa" map of Taiwan[16] was based on a draft made by Commodore Matthew C. Perry of the U.S. Navy in 1854, which was based on the previous Sir Collinson's surveys, attached in the book of the records of the expedition to Japan "Narrative of the Expedition of an American Squadron to the China Seas and Japan" p572-573. [17]


"It was previously..." can be mistakenly thought to be "earlier than Qing dynasty" in this statement. It is suggested to be replaced by "during the later half of 19th century".

Yu Shan is the sacred mountain of Tsou and Bunun people. In the peoples sagas, on the summit the origin of the peoples took place, and the last refuge where the last fire tinder was preserved for the peoples escaped from the great flood. [1][2]

In Tsou and Bunun saga, before the days Yu Shan being the hunting fields of Tsou and Bunun, there were Salutsu people (a mythical little black people, maybe related to Negrito) occupied in north of Yu Shan. [2][18] In prehistorical times, Yu Shan was exclusive hunting fields of Tsou and Bunun peoples. Access was very unlikely for outsiders to the lands of head-hunting peoples.

In Qing era, in the aftermath of Japanese invasion of Taiwan (1874), the Taiwan aborigine policy was changed to "opening mountains and colonizing savages" (zh-TW:開山撫番) in which 3 Trans-Taiwan trails were constructed: the north, middle, and south trails. The middle trail, today referred as Patungkuan Ancient Trail [zh], started from the west end Lim-ki-poo [zh], bypassing Patungkuan [zh], east of Yu Shan area, crossing over 3000 meters high divide ridge of Taiwan, to the east end Posko [zh] was completed in 1875. Thanks to the trail, access to Yu Shan area for outsiders was then not improbable. [1]


In "History" section the statement

Under the Japanese, the anthropologists Torii Ryūzō and Ushinosuke Mori became the first people recorded to summit the mountain in 1900. In 1900, during Japanese rule, two Japanese anthropologists, became the first people to have been recorded ascending the mountain. They gave it the name "Mount Niitaka"

The "who" and "when" of naming as "Niitakayama" are incorrect in the statement.

Earlier than the said "first summit" in 1900, the name of Yu Shan had already been changed to "Niitakayama" (Kanji: "新高山", meaning "new high mountain") by the imperial decree of Japanese Emperor Meiji on Jun 28, 1897,[19] after the elevation of Yu Shan was confirmed higher than that of Fujiyama by Imperial Japanese Army General Staff Office Land Survey Department (ja:陸地測量部) in Jul 1895-Sep 1896. [1]

The first (non-aborigine) people recorded to ("civilized") summit the mountain were Imperial Japanese Army General Staff Office lieutenant Nagano Yoshitora [zh] and 2 aborigine guides during the land survey in Jul 1895-Sep 1896 on Sep 28 1896. Nagano's summit was not recognized among Japanese mountaineer communities at that time due to his expedition report to summit being suspicious.

2 months later, Saito Otosaku, the director of Lim-ki-poo [zh] Colonial Reclamation Agency (zh-TW:撫墾署), and 2 Tumpu [zh] tribe Vonum guides reported to summit on Nov 21 1896.[20] [a]

However, 2 years later, German explorer Dr Karl Theodor Stöpel [de] reported that in the way to summit, he found Saito's Japanese flag and pole under a rock on the east summit (much more technical difficult than the main summit) but not on the main summit. Dr Karl Theodor Stöpel and 2 Tumpu tribe Vonum guides Husung and Biung (the same guides of Saito's summit) are generally recognized to be the first (non-aborigine) people recorded to summit on Dec 26 1898. [21]: 89–92 [1]


Measurements of the Elevation of Yu Shan in Selected Historical Surveys [22] [1] [23] [24] [25] [26]
3292m (10800ft) British Royal Naval hydrographic surveys by Admiral Sir Richard Collinson in 1841~1845
3917m (12850ft) British Royal Navy Captain E W Brooker of HMS the Inflexible in 1858[27]
4232m (13967 Japanese ft) Imperial Japanese Army General Staff Office Land Survey Department (ja:陸地測量部) surveys in 1895-1896[22]
3945m (13020 Japanese ft) Government-General of Taiwan Provisional Land Investigating Bureau (ja:臨時土地調査局) surveys in 1904[22]
3962m (13075 Japanese ft) Government-General of Taiwan General Staff Office land surveys by Noro Yasushi (Kanji: 野呂寧) in 1908-1909 [22][28]
3950m (13035 Japanese ft) Government-General of Taiwan General Staff Office land leveling surveys in 1924[22]
3997m U.S. Army Map Service (USAMS), Far East Command in 1957
3952m Taiwan Combined Service Forces surveys in 1978
3978m (GPS WGS84 ellipsoidal height or geodetic height) (equivalent to orthometric height or geoidal height or height above mean sea level 3952m) surveying via Global Positioning System by National Cheng Kung University in 1995, and by CHSurvey Co. Ltd in 1999
3951.798+-0.072m Taiwan National Land Surveying and Mapping Center leveling surveys in 2003
3952.430+-0.045m Taiwan National Land Surveying in 2016-2017 [29] [30]

Notes

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  1. ^ Saito was in a scientific expedition team led by Prof. Honda Seiroku [de; ja] and together they climbed Yu Shan. Prof Honda did manage to collect many invaluable specimens in the expedition, and claimed to be the first to summit, but he did not reach the summit because of illness according to reports from Saito and the Vonum guides.[20][21]: 90 

References

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Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
  1. ^ a b c d e f g Lin, Mei-jun [林玫君] (Nov 2012). 玉山史話 [Yu Shan Saga] (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Nantou, Shui-li: Yushan National Park.
  2. ^ a b c Kano, Tadao [in Japanese] (Aug 1941). 新高雜記. 山と雲と蕃人と: 台灣高山行 [And Mountains and Clouds and Savages: Alpinism in Taiwan] (in Japanese). ja:中央公論社. pp. 312–315. 新高山(ウサビヘ) [Niitakayama (Usavihe)] {{cite book}}: |website= ignored (help)
  3. ^ Jiang, Yu-ying [in Chinese] (1685). 古蹟: 玉山. 台灣府志 (蔣志) 卷十 [Taiwanfoo Chorography (Jiang ed) Volume 10] (in Chinese). 玉山：在鳳山縣。山甚高，皆雲霧罩于其上，時或天氣光霽，遙望皆白石，因名爲玉山。
  4. ^ Yu, Yong-he [in Chinese] (1697). 番境補遺. 裨海紀遊 [Diary of Searching Sulfur] (in Chinese). 玉山在萬山中，其山獨高，無遠不見；巉巖峭削，白色如銀，遠望如太白積雪。四面攢峰環繞，可望不可即，皆言此山渾然美玉。番人既不知寶，外人又畏野番，莫敢向邇。每遇晴霽，在郡城望之，不啻天上白雲也。
  5. ^ Steere, Joseph Beal (2002) [manuscripts of trip to Formosa in 1873–1874]. "Introduction". In Li, Paul Jen-Kuei (ed.). Formosa and Its Inhabitants. Taipei: Academia Sinica, Institute of Taiwan History. p. 4. ISBN 978-9576719011.
  6. ^ Campbell, William (1903). "Bibliography". Formosa under the Dutch. London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co. Ltd. pp. 569, 588. ISBN 1-4021-5686-3. [pp.569] COLLINSON, R... states that after his survey..., he fixed the height of Mount Morrison and named it. [pp.588] MORRISON... but mistaken in stating that Mount Morrison was not named after the well-known pioneer missionary of that name.
  7. ^ Campbell, William (1915). Sketches from Formosa. London, Edinburgh & New York: Marshall Brothers, Ltd. p. 19. ISBN 957-638-377-3. [Illustration of facing page 15] Mount Morrison (pioneer missionary to China), [pp.19] Mount Morrison, 'a name which endears it to the Christian missionary...'
  8. ^ Lai, Rev. John (Dec 4, 1988). 史話043 甘治士湖 [History043 Lake Candidius]. 台灣教會公報 [Taiwan Christianity Church Journal] (in Chinese (Taiwan)) (1918).
  9. ^ Dodd, John (Dec 2015) [original published in 1888]. 泡茶走西仔反: 清法戰爭台灣外記 [Journal of a Blockaded Resident in North Formosa during the Franco-Chinese War, 1884-5] (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Translated by Chen, Cheng-san [陳政三] (Chinese translation 2nd ed.). Wu-Nan Books Inc [ zh-TW:五南圖書出版股份有限公司 ]. p. 100. ISBN 978-957-11-8183-7.
  10. ^ "Mt Morrison Name Origin". Sunriver (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Aug 20, 2019.
  11. ^ Davidson, James Wheeler (1903). "XXIV The Formosan Camphor Industry". The Island of Formosa; Past and Present; History, People, Resources and commercial Prospects. London and New York: MacMillan & Co. pp. 400–402.
  12. ^ Chen, Cheng-san [陳政三] (Dec 2015). 郇和環遊台灣首記. 翱翔福爾摩沙 英國外交官郇和晚清台灣紀行 [Avis formosan: Narrative of Visits to Formosa by the First British Consul for Taiwan Robert Swinhoe] (in Chinese (Taiwan)) (2nd ed.). Taipei: Wu-Nan Books Inc zh-TW:五南圖書. pp. 8–10. ISBN 978-957-11-8185-1.
  13. ^ Douglas, Fix (Jun 2014). "Charting Formosan Waters: British Surveys of Taiwan's Ports and Seas, 1817-1867" (map). Appendix: Formosa Island 1845. 漢學研究 [Sinology Research]. 32 (2): 47. Mt Morrison 10800
  14. ^ Dawson, Commander L. S. (1885). "Vice-Admiral Sir Richard Collinson, K.C.B.". Memoirs of hydrography including brief biographies of the principal officers who have served in H.M. Naval Surveying Service between the years 1750 and 1885, in two parts. Part II. 1830 to 1885. Eastbourne: Henry W. Keay "the Imperial Library". pp. 30–33.
  15. ^ "Chart of the Coast of China" (Map). (an ancient bookseller commercial link). Cartography by Captns. Kellett and Collinson, R. N. London: James Imray & Son. 1855. Mt Morrison 10800
  16. ^ "The Island of Formosa" (Map). (an ancient bookseller commercial link). 1856. Mt Morrison 108000
  17. ^ Hawks, Francis L. (1856). "Expedition to Formosa". Narrative of the Expedition of an American Squadron to the China Seas and Japan Performed in the Years 1852, 1853 and 1854 under the Command of Commodore M.C. Perry, United States Navy (map). New York: Ackerman Lithographers. pp. 572–573.
  18. ^ Li, Paul Jen-Kuei (Jan 2011). 台灣南島民族的族群與遷徙 [The Ethnic Groups and Dispersal of Taiwan Austronesian] (in Chinese (Taiwan)) (Revised ed.). Taipei: Avanguard Publishing [ zh-TW:前衛出版社 ]. pp. 168–169. ISBN 978-957-801-660-6.
  19. ^ Takashima, Tomonosuke [in Japanese] (July 5, 1897). モリソン山ヲ新高山ト稱スヘキ旨御沙汰アラセラレタル旨拓殖務大臣通達 [Mount Morrison to be named Niitakayama by His Majesty to the effect: notification from the Minister of Colonial Affairs] (image). 國史館台灣文獻館 [Taiwan Historica] (in Japanese). p. 4. [[article 00000121001 page 4] The Taiwan highest mountain Morrison, to be named Niitakayama by His Majesty, informed from Army General Staff Office on the 28th of last mouth, to the effect. Issued on July 5, Year of Meiji 30 (1897) by Minister of Colonial Affairs Viscount Takashima Tomonosuke.]
  20. ^ a b Takemoto, Taro (2021). "Thoughts and Practices of Saito Otosaku, a Colonial Forester, during his Early Years in the Japanese Empire". 林業経済研究 [Journal of Forest Economics] (in Japanese). 67 (1): 19–20. doi:10.20818/jfe.67.1_16. ISSN 2424-2454.
  21. ^ a b Stöpel, Karl Theodor [in German] (1905). "Montag, den 26. Dezember". Eine Reise in das Innere der Insel Formosa und die erste Besteigung des Niitakayama (Mount Morrison) Weihnachten 1898 (in German). Buenos Aires: Compañia Sud-Americana de Billetes de Banco. pp. 89–92. Messung 3870 m. hoch... Hier ober fand ich unter einem Steine... japanische Flagge und... des Leutnants Saito...
  22. ^ a b c d e Wong, Shi-hao [翁世豪] (Nov 2018). 玉山高度初解: 探詢陸地測量部新高山真高測量 [Decipher Height of Yushan: Searching How the Orthometric Height of Niitakayama by Land Survey Department Were Measured]. 歷史台灣 國立台灣歷史博物館館刊 [Journal of National Museum of Taiwan History]. 田野調查短論 (in Chinese (Taiwan)) (16): 171–189.
  23. ^ "Yu Shan and Maps (1)". Sunriver (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Jul 11, 2019.
  24. ^ "Yu Shan and Maps (2)". Sunriver (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Jul 22, 2019.
  25. ^ "Yu Shan and Maps (3)". Sunriver (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Aug 5, 2019.
  26. ^ "FAQ: What Is the Height of Yu Shan?". Yu Shan National Park (in Chinese (Taiwan)). {{cite web}}: |archive-date= requires |archive-url= (help); Check date values in: |archive-date= (help)
  27. ^ Le Gendre, Charles W. (1870). "Formosa Island and the Pescadores" (map). Library of Congress. Mt MORRISSON [Comr Brooker 12850]
  28. ^ Cheng, Anshi [鄭安睎] (Jun 2011). 第三節 山區地圖繪製與蕃地掌控過程. 日治時期蕃地隘勇線的推進與變遷 (1895〜1920) (PDF) (in Chinese). Taipei: 國立政治大學民族學系 博士論文 [PhD Thesis, Department of Ethnology, National Chengchi University]. pp. 60–61. (1908)12月起，野呂寧技師...新高山高度為13,075尺(約3,961.7公尺)
  29. ^ "Jade Mountain remeasured using latest technology". FocusTaiwan. CNA. Jul 11, 2018.
  30. ^ 最新玉山高度出爐 石碑標高3952公尺不變 (in Chinese (Taiwan)). CNA. Jul 11, 2018.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.150.131.136 (talk) 18:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

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