Talk:Yugoslav Cup

Italics

Why are Borac Banja Luka and Budućnost Titograd in italics in the Winners section? FkpCascais (talk) 04:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Because they were not in the Yugoslav First League at the time they reached the finals. Timbouctou (talk) 10:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks, I was just wandering and couldn´t really get there :D But I didn´t read the Key section... duhhh. FkpCascais (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

It can happen to anyone :-) Timbouctou (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Euro performance

What constitutes original research here? And how is including the performance of the Yugoslav Cup-winning clubs in Euro competitions (the main sporting objective of winning the Cup in the first place) an indiscriminate collection of stats, but including what internal subdivision they come from, for example, isn't?Zvonko (talk) 23:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that winning the national cup is just a first step towards the "real objective" of winning European silverware. Sounds suspiciously like one person's opinion to me. You might as well write a section on clubs' performances in the Intercontinental Cup in each and every article dealing with lists of national champions. So there's an issue with whether we need that information at all in an article which is about the Yugoslav Cup - and there's also the issue that the table is unreferenced, which makes it WP:OR. I don't see such a problem with saying in which SFR Yugoslavia republics the clubs were based in - that is perfectly verifiable and is nothing unusual in this sort of articles (e.g. see Soviet Cup). Timbouctou (talk) 23:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Didn't say it's the only one. It's one of the objectives/motivations for participating in it. I mean, are you claiming complete disconnect between the occurrence of "winning the domestic cup" and the occurrence of "participating in the Euro competition that winning the cup enabled you to participate in"? And to the point that including the info about the latter occurrence in the wiki article about the former occurrence is completely indiscriminate? The relationship between these two occurrences doesn't even approach anything described as "indiscriminate" in WP:DISCRIMINATE. Agreed that the table should be limited to Cup Winners' Cup and perhaps instances when winning the domestic cup got you an UEFA Cup berth (I believe there were a few instances like that).

As for lack of references, that can easily be included (though I'm not even 100% sure why, since each of those competitions have their own wiki pages, it's not like this is some obscure hard-to-obtain info), so don't see why you're supporting removal of information. Are you worried that the info in the Euro performance table in its present state is incorrect?Zvonko (talk) 23:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

"Removal of information" is not an accurate description. We haven't discussed whether what you have added is informative at all. You could also make a nice list of all players who ever won the cup, ordered by their hair colour or shoe size, and then argue that removing it would be "removal of information". As for the relationship between European and national trophies - the relation is slim - in some years clubs qualified, in some they didn't. In some years it only took a finalist and in others it was the cup winner. In some years cup winners/finalists played in the UEFA Cup, and in some years in the Cup Winners' Cup. The point is, there were so many changes to the format and method of qualification that insisting on such a table would be more trouble than it is worth. There is a very good reason why such tables are not included in any other list of winners of any other national football cup. I guess something like that would belong to an article titled Yugoslav clubs in UEFA competitions or something similar. Not here. This is about the Yugoslav Cup. Let's stick with the Yugoslav Cup then. Timbouctou (talk) 00:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The table Zvonko added is interesting, however I have to agree with Timbouctou that it should rather belong in an article named Yugoslav clubs in UEFA competitions. Why don´t you create it Zvonko? It would be a great article and that table would be very usefull there. FkpCascais (talk) 00:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Alright, the two of you convinced me on the merit that this article isn't the most appropriate place for it.

Though I disagree with Timbouctou's implication that the info value of the clubs' performance in Europe for which they qualified through that very cup is akin to the informative value of the cup-winning players' respective hair colours as well as his assertion that the relationship between winning a cup and playing in Europe is "slim" on the basis that clubs "sometime played Euro competitions and sometimes they didn't". Ever since Euro competitions got established in the early 1950s, the YU Cup winner/finalist always played a Euro competition (Cup Winners Cup in 90% of the cases) the following season based on that result. Anyway, Yugoslav football clubs in international competition (similar to English football clubs in international competition) would I guess be more appropriate for a table like this.

Also to clarify, I did not create the table, looks like BIHVolim did, I merely restored Dr. Vicodine's removal. And considering your views expressed here, I now find it a bit strange that neither of you removed it before (especially Timbouctu who here expresses very strong views against it, but didn't remove the table when editing the article immediately after BIHVolim added it). Zvonko (talk) 02:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Next time you argue for inclusion of something in an article, you might want to check to see whether equivalent information can also be found in other similar articles of better quality. It saves time. The same goes for BIHVolim. Timbouctou (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm trying to find consistency between the views you expressed about the table on this talk page and your edits. And I must say I'm not having much success so you can perhaps illuminate something I might be missing. Absolutely no need to get defensive.

Considering the views on the table you expressed here, as well as your opinion on the "slim" relationship between the domestic competition and a Euro one, what are your thoughts on the table still being in Yugoslav First League, then? I mean, you edited that article recently and you seem to be fine with that exact same table over there. Needless to say, I didn't notice any other national league Wiki articles containing the Euro performance from the clubs in those respective leagues.Zvonko (talk) 01:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how you think investigating my editing history somehow contributes to this discussion. Maybe I did not remove it because I didn't feel like going through a time wasting discussion such as this one. Maybe I felt a line needed to be drawn somewhere because this sort of crap is like an epidemic, and within a month you could expect a flood of newbies creating similar tables in articles on everything from ice hockey leagues to badminton tournaments, cluttering articles with barely related crap in oversized table format. Maybe I felt this was the place to draw that line. And maybe I don't need to explain my edits to you and maybe I'm not here to do your edits for you. What I said earlier still stands - if it isn't in any of the other dozens of articles on national leagues, then we can probably do without it. So feel free to remove it. Timbouctou (talk) 02:06, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

In my view the Euro performance table shouldn´t be in the Yugoslav First League article either. Would any of you mind if I remove it from that article and copy/paste it to Yugoslav clubs in UEFA competitions and then we can all try to expand that new article? FkpCascais (talk) 04:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

By looking to English football clubs in international competition, would you oppose if the article is named Yugoslav football clubs in international competition so the Intercontinental Cup gets included as well? FkpCascais (talk) 04:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if you removed the Euro performance table from Yugoslav First League.Zvonko (talk) 00:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

@FkpCascais - sure, that sounds like a good idea. Timbouctou (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)