Talk:Zadar/Archive 1

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On re-joining Croatia after WWII

As far as I know zadar (at the time Zara) was part of Dalmatia county in the austrian part of the Austro-Hungaric empire, while Croatia was a separate region in the hungarian part.
Therefore I am a bit concerned wheter this statement is correct: "Afterwards it was joined again with Croatia (at the time in Yugoslavia)." (why again?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.178.155.76 (talk • contribs) 14:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

There's no reason for an Italian name of the city. Latin is fine but not Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.139.48 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Zadar wasn't in the Austrian part in the times of Austro - Hungaric empire, Zadar was under Italy at those times, for quite a while, hence the "joined again with Croatia" part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.198.129.19 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Britannica says: "The town was an Austrian possession from 1797 to 1920, except for a brief French interregnum between 1808 and 1813." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.22.31.2 (talk • contribs) 14:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC

Zadar (and Dalmatia) were in the Austrian part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Dalmatia was one of the 15 Crownlands of the so-called "Cisleithania" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisleithania So, the text should not say "joined again" with Croatia. giordaano87.65.136.192 23:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Dalmatia and Croatia were different regions under the Austrians. (Moreover, at the time of the Empire, Dalmatia was much more a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural region than it is today) So, if there is not another explanation we should remove the "joined again". --Paolopk2 08:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Paolopk2, Croatian Assembly had title of Sabor of Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia.
Joined again? Yes, of course. Whome Zadar belonged before Venice occupied it? Kubura 18:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

?

You have written "In the 10th, and especially in the 11th century, although it survived the migration of Slavs, the rulers of the town were the Croats." It's false. Where does come this information from?
Zadar had been conquired by Hungarian Kingdom but it still had a large autonomy (as well as the other cities of the coast) and it has never been part of Croatia before 1947. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.216.8 (talk • contribs) 13:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Croatia and Hungary were united in a personal union, union of two kingdoms, united in a person of king. Kubura 09:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Koloman was first hungaro-croatin king. Before him Croatia was kingdom with Tomislav, Kresimir,.. as kings (10th century) and Zadar was a part of that kingdom from 1069. Church st. Donat (early 9th century) got its name to bishop Donat (?-811). It's build in oldcroatian pre-romanesque style typical for croatian builders of that period in wider area populated by Croats in Dalmatia. Also Donat is recognised as typical croatian name found only in Zadar as well as Stosija (slavic version of Anastasia). St. Stosia is Zadar's chatedral and it got its todays shape in 18th century. In early 13th the rivalty of Zadar and Venice resulted in destroying the city. There is a rich archive of hystorical documents in Zadar with many croatian names as early as 9th and 10th century and til now croatian names make the most of all found in all of documents. Because of important strategic position in centre of Adriatic sea, Zadar has frequently changed its political rulers and has been the part of political trade but did not changed its croatian population. You should use -joined again- 83.131.131.75 22:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Venice and Italy were nothing but invaders in history of Zadar. During venician occupation of Zadar citizens of the city were Croats and administration was venician. In the northwestern corner of the old city centre there are still walls of castle inside the city walls. Today it is called Kampo Kastel. It was built by Venicians and was used to hide venician city government and guards since they were not wellcome among citizens. Venecian tax collectors, politicians, administrators couldn't walk safely through the city so they were usually followed and protected by well armed soldiers. The fact is that Zadar was never really venician town, only in papers. The same goes for italian control of the city. Italy got Zadar just few times for some short periods and it were political trades in every case. Italian ruling of Zadar was always resulting in cultural stagnation of the city and losing population. Italian population in Zadar were mostly soldiers and administrators and their families. Not too many civils at all. All positive cultural movements after 9th century were initialized by Croats and in croatian cultural envirement. These are just few historical facts and there are thousands more of it in historical documents written in croatian language and placed in Zadar archives.83.131.146.247 15:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

On Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Page says that Zlatan Ibrahimovic's mother is from Zadar, but the Zlatan Ibrahimovic page says she is a Bosnian Croat from Tuzla. Cordless larry 12:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Zlatan´s father is from Tuzla but his mother is from Prkos, small village just near Zadar. This is 100% certain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.145.45 (talk • contribs) 14:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Copyright problem

The text refers "Adapted from the "Miroslav Krleža" Lexicographic Institute text about Zadar."

I see copyright issue here. Wikipedia should be made by original contributions. --Paolopk2 08:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

You both know that both sides are true, so how about this compromise...

Since World War II the city has developed as a strong economic and tourist centre. In 1991, attacks on Serbian civilians occured, culminating in the Zadar Kristallnacht where over 350 Serbian shops and houses were destroyed. Later, the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) along with Serb paramilitaries converged on the city and it found itself as the subject of shelling. Connections with the capital Zagreb were severed for over a year, the only link being via the island of Pag. Zadar was once again damaged in the war, including its historical bastions and churches. The siege of the city lasted until January 1993 when Zadar again came under the control of Croatian forces. Attacks on the city continued until the end of the war in Croatia in 1995.

Not so hard is it... - FrancisTyers 16:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm copying it in, if you want to complain, complain here. - FrancisTyers 16:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

If Dalmatian Kristallnacht gets deleted, that specific reference needs to be deleted to. By the way, the number has recently been revised by Serbian wikipedians to 116 shops. I, of course, can't verify either one. Everyone, take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dalmatian Kristallnacht and add intelligent discussion if you can. Grandmasterka 03:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Zadar Kristallnacht happened after Serbs have killed Croatian police officer Franko Lisica in Benkovac. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.145.45 (talk • contribs) 14:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ooooh this is really not a good place for compromise! The war in Croatia started during 1990. with Serbian "Balvan revolution"... Balvan is balk, log in English... Serbian paramilitaries started the chrises in Croatia - cutting trees by the roads and blocking the traffic. At that moment Croatia didn't have any kind of army, just an official police. Franko Lisica was a Croatian policeman sent with his unit to clear the passage in one of many such points (02.05.1991.). He got killed by Serbian paramilitaries hidden in ambush. Lisica was born in Bibinje, a village next to Zadar, so the day after he had been killed, a group of people from Bibinje came to the centre of the city and damaged Serbian shops. Around 100 shops. "Zadar crystal night" was a title in newspapers. 83.131.131.215 16:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this, since this revert war doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon. Adam Bishop 04:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Despite the protection, it would be convenient if the [[Crusaders]] link could become [[Fourth Crusade|Crusaders]] so it does not end up going to a disambiguation page. Dpv 00:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I forgot about this...I've unprotected it. I don't understand the crusade links though...why doesn't "crusader" just redirect to "crusade"? Adam Bishop 00:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Famous People

There were alot of edits to the famous people area on June 20th 2006 with NO explanation as to why so many were removed....I informed the IP address that did it to not remove info without valid reason on the talk page as per Wiki policy but the IP address did it again. Can someone with more knowledge about Zadar please take a look at the edits and restore as necessary. Also, this editor seemed to take offense to the Italian source of the Zadar name but not the Latin??? KsprayDad 23:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Slavica lingua

I cut the following lines:
An annalist from the year 1177 noted that the joyous people of Zadar accompanying Pope Alexander III on his way to the basilica sang songs of praise 'in their native Slavic language'
Reason: it's not connected with culture or literature. Those lines should be insert in the *proper contest*. A note about the language used by some common people of Zara is neither, nor literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Zara between Diadora and Zadar? False. Zara is name used by Italians and there are many documents where you can see that the name in usage was Zadar, slavic version of illyric Iader. This Zara nonsense - where does it come from??? Maybe Italy??? In croatian language the citizen of Zadar is called Zadranin - you can find it in many documents in 14th, 15th,... century. During italian occupation Zadranin was changed to Zaratin according to Zara, and not before. This thing about name is really wrong and has nothing to do with documentation and encyclopedia editing, but it deals a lot with politics. It's very sad!83.131.146.247 15:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Iader, Iadera is illyric or better to say liburn name for Zadar, not latin as it is written in the text. Latins were just using this name. You can see connection Adriatic - Iader. In croatian it is Jadran - Zadar. Zadar is slavic version of Iader. It is obviously that italian name Zara comes from croatian name Zadar and not contrary. Letter D in the middle is present in all names except Zara. Zara withot D sounds more italian and accords to reshapening Zadar - Zadra - Zara. Zara is found mostly in Venice and italian documentation.

Maybe genetics can help? Recent genetical investigations of Y-chromosome shows that modern Croat is 76% mix of Illyrian and Slav (42% I1b "illyrian" and 34% R1a "Indoeuropean"). Also Herzegovina (populated with Croats only) is a place where I1b reaches the maximum 72%. The dispersion of I1b haplogroup indicates that population of Dalmatia must have frequency >50%. By the way Dalmatia is illyric name too - the Dalmats illyrian tribe. Following R1a frequency and dispersion it is obviously that slavic tribes came to west Balkan massively in 7th century, but small groups and collonies were there much earlier starting from 1st century BC. Collision of Croats and Illyrians into croatian identity was a process. It couldn't be just a happening of a few hundred years. Croats are recognised as christians very early (8th century). They create their own style of curch building in 9th century especially in Zadar area. Also there are more then 1 document where you can see that language used in churches was Croatian. Everywhwere else it was Latin. The coming of Pope Alexander III (1177.) to Zadar was just acceptance of that situation which was a litlle bit disturbing before. That's why An annalist from the year 1177 noted that the joyous people of Zadar accompanying Pope Alexander III on his way to the basilica sang songs of praise 'in their native Slavic language'. It's not just a documentary screenshot. It is an accent of the moment and happenning. 89.172.64.60 18:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Has Anyone Noticed?

Has anyone noticed that lots of foriegn cities (outside the US and UK that I'm aware of) only have the name of the city, but not ", [country]". I put wikilinks on my page that said Zadar, Croatia, and, well, I thought no one had an article on that. Just thought I'd like to comment. Cheers! The RuneScape Junkie   20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Dundee

Dundee is in the United Kingdom of which Scotland is a region. Scotland may have existed as an independent country 300 years ago, but at the moment it is part of a state called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.95.26 (talk) 14:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

The page is protected, congratulations. Adam Bishop 15:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Croathood of Zadar

For all the HAZU sources, here's the catalogue search page [1]. Enter the title text into "title" box. If that fails, enter the title text into "author" box. Kubura 07:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are some links for those who doubt about that.
From HAZU. First two pages [2] of a book "Vazetye Szigheta grada / szlosheno po Barni Karnarutichiu Zadraninu.
Translation is: "The Capture of Szigetvar, ...by Barne Karnarutić of Zadar ("Zadraninu", not "Zaratino"). The book is from 1661.. More to come. Kubura 09:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

From HAZU. First page [3] of a book "Vila Slovincha Givrgia Barachovicchia Zadranina v çettare varsti petya sloxena ça yest v pismi schvpne, u osmo redche u zuçno poyche i u polvredche. Printed in Venice in 1614."
"... of Juraj Baraković Zadranin (not "Zaratino")...". Kubura 09:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

From HAZU. First page [4] of a book of Christian religious poetry "Pisma od pakla : navlastito od paklenoga oggna, tamnosti, i viçnosti, koju iz svetoga Pisma staroga i novaga zakona, takoger iz sveti otacza i nauçiteglia / izvede i harvatski jezik pivagne otacz F. Lovro Gliubusckoga reda S.O. Francesck, darxave Bosne Argentine ... u pet poglavj razdigliena. - U Mneci : po Bartulu Occhi, 1727". On the first page says, that the book is dedicated to "Vicentiu Zmaevichiu, arcibiskupu zadarskome"/"Vicentije Zmaevich, arcbishop of Zadar". Printed in Venice in 1727.. Kubura 07:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Zadar in Hungarian

Could any of the admins add the Hungarian name of the city, which is "Zára" (without the quotation marks, of course)? CoolKoon 10:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

How is Zadar's name in Hungarian in any way relevant? —KingIvan 10:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

How about because it was part of Austria-Hungary (and before the Kingdom of Hungary) for quite a while (centuries)? CoolKoon 00:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Big deal, Croatia was occupied by many different powers at different times; Hungary had little impact on Zadar and there are very few Hungarians in Croatia. That is not reason enough to put the Hungarian name there. --Jesuislafete 00:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Then you can remove the Italian name too, saying that it had little impact on it. In fact, one of our king was crowned in Zára, who happened to be the king of Naples too. (that's why its name is Nápolyi László in Hungarian -which translates ti László from Naples- ). Meanwhile I found the Wikipedia entry too: Ladislas of Naples. So can you leave the Hungarian name there? CoolKoon 20:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

You obviously don't know history. Zadar was a part of Venice for centuries, the impact it had on the town was enormous. Meanwhile, the best you can come up with is that a king was crowned in the city? That is not reason enough. --Jesuislafete 23:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

You aren't a bunch of nationalists, are you? Because if so, then please remove Rijeka's Hungarian name too stating it's irrelevant, there's no reason for it to be there, it has little to do with Hungary etc...And BTW I think it needs to be there because it has SOMETHING to do with Hungary, not because of whatever reasons you think aboutCoolKoon 08:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

If the best you can do is call someone a nationalist over a name link, than you are a very funny person indeed. Don't get so fed up over it; why don't we add Greek, French and Austrian too? All of them had an "influence over Zadar too. The only thing you mentioned was a Hungarian king got crowned in Zadar, and apparently, that "has SOMETHING to do with Hungary," and it's so enormous, it requires a name link. Can you possibly name anything else? And you never fully answered my other points. Regards. --Jesuislafete 19:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

There is one thing, which is funnier than me: it's the fact that we're arguing over a name. Why does it matter to you if it's there in Hungarian? Oh, and there is no 'Austrian' language, and never has been any. It's German, and I'd put there its german name too if I'd know it. I don't know however that how does Zadar relate to the Greeks and the Frech....CoolKoon 19:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

and what does it matter to you so much that Hungarian is there in the first place when it has absolutely no relevence to the city? If you give me good evidence, I will change my mind, but from what I am seeing, you are spamming the page by putting something that you personally want that does not have importance to the page (from what you said, it was a crowning place for the king.) Regards.--Jesuislafete 03:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Zadar was a strong city with a lot of cultural and political influence and what's the most important - placed at the sea side so it was the nearest and the best way to take a crown sent from the Pope. After the crowning, the king, his head and a crown on it has gone to the north. 83.131.134.191 14:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Bah! You keep sounding like some nationalists who think that Hungarians shouldn't exist at all. Well, tough luck, but Zadar is part of the Hungarian history, just as much as Nándorfehérvár (i.e. Beograd) for example. But for NPOV you say you need something more than a Hungarian king crowned there. Well, how about the peace threaty of Zára between Hungary and Venice in 18. february 1358 [5] (sorry, but it's in Hungarian), when Zára became part of Hungary (again)? But anyway, I got a picture too, which shows a street in Zadar: [6] (Hungarian source again, what a shame....). Anyway, the interesting thing is that it looks as if it would be in historical center of Pozsony (i.e. Bratislava). Is that a coincidence? Probably. Or if you deny that, just come and visit Bratislava once....oh, and how about parts of Vienna downtown resembling Budapest downtown? Nah, just a very weird coincidence too....Brno bearing some resemblance to Wien & Budapest.....nah...that's beginning to sound like a conspiracy theory, right? Maybe you'll get to those distant places once (I know how distant is it. Our trip from Bratislava to Pula lasted a whole night and about half of the next day...), and realise that these cities actually do have some things in common. Or maybe you won't, since the whole problem of Central Europe and the Balkan was/is the lack of consensus, so I guess we won't be able to agree because of the CE/Balkanian mentality....CoolKoon 21:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Calm down child, this is the internet. Your post is enough to prove you are irrational. Thank you. --Jesuislafete 18:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't loose your nerves, guys.
Point is... you're having a discussion with the user whose signature is red. An empty link. That's often the case with the vandals and trolls.
They came on Wikipedia for the reason of disrupting its work, as well as the inciting the verbal clashes between users and by using inflammatory statements.
If that empty-link user think that Hungary and Hungarians were important for the Zadar in history, he's wrong. Albanians had much more influence. Kubura 20:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It's really nice to call me names like vandal, troll etc. And I'd be one, how come I've been around for 2-3 years? And BTW who are you to state that Zadar absolutely doesn't have anything to do with Hungary? Are you a historian? I guess not. And then if I state something and you state something, who's right? You say that you're right because you said so? I can say that too. But then none of us has a NPOV, which is very important in Wikipedia. Oh, and you think that because most of this article's visitors share your POV then it's the truth? I don't think so. Coolkoon 10:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Aha and Krakow is part of German history... but this is not good association because Germans WERE in Poland, Hungarians were not in Zadar. 83.131.135.140 15:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You know what? I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. It's quite sad that you guys have categorically refused to leave there 17 characters which refer to a part of your history. Yes, your part of the history, since Hungary, and later Austria-Hungary is part of your history too. You can deny it, of course, but it remains to be a fact. Even if your whole nation denies that. Actually you can even stop teaching about the "opressing" kingdom of Hungary/Austria-Hungary (if it's part of the curriculum over there). You can lie yourself as much as you want, it still remains to be a lie. Anyway, to settle this dispute (and for you a chance to show that you're not nationalists:P) I recommend you putting this in there: see also other names CoolKoon 19:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't even know what are these other names! And how can Hungarian name can be relevant for Zadar? It's not even Hungarian name! It's Italian. Should we give Croatian names to all Hungarian cities? 83.131.153.141 17:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Look, I've already discussed above that why has Zadar its part in the Hungarian history, and I really don't want to repeat myself. And yeah, you're right, the name Zára was probably derived from the Italian name. So what? The Hungarian name for Bratislava (Pozsony) is derived from its Latin name (Posonium), and despite that it's still called Pozsony in Hungarian. Or e.g. Brno is Brünn in Hungarian, which is also its German name. And other non-Hungarian cities' Hungarian name greatly differs from their official name, e.g. Bécs (Wien), Koppenhága (Copenhagen), Fokváros (Cape Town). So what then? The World still goes 'round!

Oh, and yes, you can give Croatian names to all Hungarian cities! If fact, you're advised to do so on the page which I've linked above. So I'll finally know the Croatian name of Debrecen, Kecskemét, Székesfehérvár, Miskolc, Eger, Esztergom, Komárom, Győr, Pécs etc. ;) CoolKoon 20:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I answered on CoolKoon's talkpage on 23th June 2007. Names in Croatian, Albanians and Zadar. Kubura 06:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Hungarian history and Zadar? That must be some kind of joke? Of course every summer we drag a few Hungarian tourists from the sea - they can't swim. That's mostly Hungarian history here.. and statistics too. Just a joke. Listen buddy, that's not Hungarian history, that's Croatian history with some Hungarian involved. Leave your history at home, among Hungarians. You know, my grandma was singing in the radio in 30's last century (there were no recordings and music was live on the radio). At one occasion she sang as a guest at Austrian radio. Question for you: is that occasion my grandma's or Austrian cultural history? 83.131.157.128 22:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. As I've seen here (. doc file) Oktatási és Kulturális Minisztérium "Részletes érettségi vizsgakövetelmények és vizsgaleírás - Horvát népismeret", the name in contemporary Hungarian language for Zadar (and Dubrovnik) are the same as in Croatian. Greetings, Kubura (talk) 14:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

...still protected

I don't think there are anymore disputes, and this page has been protected forever, I want to at least fix some of the appalling spelling errors on the page. If anyone has anymore disputes, then get it over with on this page.... --Jesuislafete 02:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That's sad but it seems it needs protection again. Somebody is constantly vandalizing it with some fascist ideas! 83.131.153.141 17:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Broj stanovnika

Zanima me zašto netko uporno lažira broj stanovnika grada Zadra, istovremeno stavljajući link na World Gazeteer gdje se piše da je broj stanovnika za cca 10000 manji od onog na ovoj stranici?

TAGS weasel&NPOV

I've added the tags for the several historical errors present in the article, that try to hide or minimize the Italian roots of the city. I'm going to correct them as soon as possible. Some comments, just likes the ones added by user:Kubura are indecent, false and cowdard. Such as the claim about the Italians expelled from the city just because they were 'fascists'. Nothing of surprising for the people who knows this fanatic nationalist.--Giovanni Giove 14:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

This city has no Italian roots at all. Italian version of its history is not objective which is understandable - Italians were aggresors and occupators in Zadar , starting with Venician destroying of the city (13th century) in the ages when it was the most powerful in the area (11-14 cent.) and populated by Croats. You wouldn't destroy something that is yours, wouldn't you? And that was not just an attack to take the millitary control, the battle had lasted 15 days. That was destroying to ashes piece by piece which lasted a few years after taking it under control! Venicians were controlling the city after that in some periods, forcing taxes and some quazi-culture over Croatian population. From point of view of Zadar citizens that was foreign culture and Italian language was foreign language!

Zadar is not (was not) just the city of a few square miles. It's the logical and natural centre of the area with 4 big and over a hundred smaller and small islands, Ravni Kotari plains behind the coastal side all across to Velebit mountains in the north and Bukovica in the west. All this area was populated only by Croats from 10th, 11th century to present day. Zadar has been always acummulating and re-acummulating this population not Italian since there has been no Italians at all!!! Not even one small village or port or... Just the rulling minority in the centre who were anything but no wellcome.

All these "Venician culture" days of "Zara" were followed by stagnation and losing the leading position on the Adriatic sea. Venician conquering Zadar was not because "it was Italian". Zadar was a great difficulty for Venician ambitions on Adriatic. Destroying it (1202.), ruling it (13th, 15th-18th cent.) Venice had become the leader of the Adriatic and much wider in fact.

For the begining it was the most important to destroy Zadar and to control it (weaken it).

But anyway during the history it didn't lose its major Croatian population.

Italy got the control over the city again (1920.-1945.). Italian fascism years! Am I wrong? Should we discuss about it? What fascism meant for imperilled sides?

The funniest thing is that even the languge spoken in "Zara" was not Italian - it was Zaratinian (Zaratinski) a weird mixture of Italian and Croatian!

Italian history appropriate the legacy of Zadar even all that region was never settled by Italians! The region - not only a few central city squares or streets!

How can such "history" be relevant for encyclopedia editing??? 83.131.152.109 23:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard such a lie as this one: "This city has no Italian roots at all". Any serious Wikipedia administrator around? We need his/her help against unbelievable croat nationalism! I am the son of an italian born in Zara (who was forced to move away in 1945) and I am offended by this lie......

Aha, a few daddies are quite enough to say that Zadar have Italian roots. I'm so stupid... 83.131.136.120 16:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

We need an IMPARTIAL administrator to deal with this excessive croat nationalism full of lies. By the way, "the few daddies" were 95% of the Zara population in 1945....or you want to deny even this? And it is well documented, even by the United Nations!!!!

Don't forget that Wikipedia is an impartial encyclopedia......

I reread the article and removed some of the sketchy wording in there that I have not noticed before, I think everyone will be ok with it, which is why I am removing the tags. Also, the two anonymous users that are fighting, I see none of you have much experience editing on Wikipedia, or you are just trolls that like to cause trouble, but please dont make accusations like Zadar was never settled by Italians or that the page is full of Croatian nationalism. Let's try to work on getting some references for the page. I'm busy at the moment, but I'll try to get on that in the meantime, that way the facts on the page can be verified. --Jesuislafete 18:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Demographic history of Zadar

Zadar (Iader, Iadera) was important Liburnian centre (Liburni were Illyrian tribe by official science, recently some scientist conlude that Liburni are not Illyrians, on the other hand geneticists state that Liburni and Delmati should have the same genesis). After the latest archeological investigations it's estimated as at least 3000 years old settlement (10th cent. b.c.). Some estimates of Iader population accord to 2,000 habitants - Iadasines (Iadasini). Zadar was Romanized during a long period after the arrival of Romans (2nd cent. b.c.) so the very first population of Varoš (todays old centre) was a mixture of native Liburns and Romans. In 4th century it had 20,000-25,000 citizens. Although the number of Romans who settled in the Balkans was very small, Rome has influenced a lot this area culturally. Language that developed in Illyricum (especially at the seaside) through this period was of Roman family languages (derived from Latin language) but original one. In early Medieval it was in use in Dalmatian cities, so it was called Dalmatic. Anyway very soon Croatian language became dominant, later Italian language (as official one) came with Venetian occupation of Dalmatia and by the time this Dalmatic language disappeared. Last heard in an isolated village on the northern Adriatic island of Krk 200 years ago.

A.Stipčević (Iliri, 1974. , Zagreb), pages 69-76 in “Illyrians in Roman ages” passus: Illyrians didn’t save any note in their Illyrian languages… they used Latin, but not the one which was used in the city schools… it was adapted to their original languages… It was not admitted as official language of administration and army…

Dalmatic language (Dalmatski) is Roman, neo-Latin speaking, used in Dalmatian cities before Venetian arrival. That idiom was born in Medieval at direct continuum of spoken Latin in Romanized Dalmatia. It originated spontaneously, as in Italy (Italian language) or France (French). Dante Alighieri didn’t mention this language in his writing “De vulgari eloquentia”, but many travelogues writers were reporting about it, so Venetian chronicler Giustiniani (16th) named it “schiavo ma diverso dall’atro” (Slavic but different than that other) and more precise: “un idioma proprio, che somiglia al calmone”. Dalmatic language was never used as official language in the notes and writings, except sometimes in Dubrovnik. Latin language was the official one. With arrival of Venetian and then Italian (Toscana) languages in Dalmatia, this Dalmatic language was disappearing by the time. It’s presumed that it vanished the most earlier in Zadar – the centre of Venetian government of Dalmatia, where Venetian influence was the most strongest. It was the most longest preserved in island of Krk. Mateo Giulio Bartolli (from Istra – peninsula in northern Adriatic) wrote 2 toms of “Das Dalmatische”. Bartolli noted this language as “neo-Latin” or “Roman” - not Italian! – Dalmatic in fact! Also he noted that Italians as well as the other neo-Latins didn’t understand this language… [7]

In the last centuries of Roman Empire, Illyricum province was more stabile politically than the centre of empire – Rome itself. Native Illyrians were mobilized at first into army, later in culture, administration, politics, even some Roman emperors were of Illyrian roots (Decius (248.-251.), Claudius II (262.-264.), Aurelian (270.-275.), Probus(276.-282.), Diocletian (284.-305.), Constantine I (306.-337.). The cities were populated by Illyrians and Romans and by the time repopulated repeatedly from surrounding Illyrian substrate. This process was Zadar’s destiny as well. Earthquake in 6th century enormously damaged the city and probably caused significant demographic changes. Historians conclude that some new inhabitants moved in and built the city again using the material of destroyed Roman buildings. Certainly these people were Dalamatic speaking natives.

A period between 2nd century b.c. and 7th century is age of final forming modern Croats genesis which ended with Croatian identity in 8th and 9th century. Illyrians (Liburni, Iapodes, Delmati, western Ardeiaei) as a majority were mixing with Sclavens (5rd- 8th) and Goths (Ostrogoths) (5th-7th). Present time Croatian population in Dalmatia has more than 50% of autochthonous pre-Indoeuropean genotype, popularly called “Dinarian” (Haplogroup I1b (Y-DNA)), possibly of an old pre-Bronze age Gravetian culture in the Balkans, in general Croats have the highest frequency of this haplotype in Europe (Croats in Hercegovina 72%), which is logically connected to Illyrians (proto-Illyrians)by all relevant scientists in that field recently. Some new history revisions also show that massive Slavic migration from 7th century was not so massive as it was propaganded in former Yugoslavia for communists political reasons. Slavization (South Slavic languages) of the Balkans demographic structure was a process starting among village population and out of the Romanized cities and trade routs at first. Dark centuries (6th-9th century) was a period when a lot of demographic changes occurred and it surely influenced the city populations as well. According to the genetics studies Slavs make only around 23% of overall modern habitants in the Balkans, in the distinction from the fact that all of them speak South Slavic languages. Also modern Croatian language is full of non-Slavic Romanized but autochthonous words (for example the most of maritime term-words in Croatian are not of Slavic roots – Dalmatic romanisms are in question) and Slavized Latin words. The names of Adriatic sea or Adria (Jadran) and Iadera (Jadera, Zadar) are older than Greek and Roman civilizations and many authors evidently connect it with Liburni tribe in fact. Liburni tribe was marked by scientists as an older one of Illyrian family, they were best known as the rulers of the Adriatic sea in pre-Antique ages.

Only Dalmatic was heard in early Medieval Zadar, but from 10th century 2 languages were equally used: Dalmatic and Croatian. Italian became administrative language in 15th century after Venetian conquer of Zadar and somewhat more in usage from 17th and 18th century among citizens, but evidently in massive usage not earlier than 19th and 20th cent. until the moment when almost all Italians left the city (1944., 1945.)

In the middle ages a lot of demographic changes occurred in Zadar and its area - global ethnic migrations, Venetian and Turkish sieges, natural catastrophes. There are not relevant data about exact number of citizens from this period, since all authors had their individual evaluations which can not be taken for sure. In 10th century the majorities in Zadar and in the area were Croats and Zadar belonged to Croatian kingdom (Croatian-Hungarian from 12th). Until 15th century Venicians were ruling Zadar in a few short turns (administrative ruling not physical). The plague epidemics occurred 25 times in Medieval Zadar, spread by Venetian trade ships, later it came from Bosnia too. The other incidences which caused the population losses were hunger, earthquake and Venetian sieges, especially 1202. when Venetians and crusaders conquered and destroyed the city which was left burnt down and robbed after their departure and all of the city population escaped in the surrounding area and the islands – the space which, after some time, gave a new wave of Zadar citizens including some of the refugees. According to the source of an anonymous Zadar writer there were 8,698 citizens in 1291. These people were mainly Croats, others were the most of Dalmatian (Romanized natives – not Italians!), Byzantine and Greek origins. This process of losing population and repopulating with some returnees and some new people from wider Zadar area were repeating through all Middle Ages. During Venetian ruling (1409.-1797.) there were a few population lists made. Plague epidemic in 1500. killed over 4.000 people. These epidemics enormously reduced overall population of the city in 16th century which was 8,051 in 1527. (that was first population list made by Venetians) and 28% smaller in 1608. During 17th century population was continually decreasing even it was repopulated repeatedly with native Croats and Italian administrators and traders. A list from 1695. had noted 52% population decrease in comparison to the list from 1609. This century was marked with 2 big Ottoman-Venice wars which remarkably influenced the demographic movements, causing suffering and dislodging in addition to low natality and often occurred hunger. Peaceful ages came in 18th cent. after Otomans defeat in the Balkans. The city was settled again by Zadar district population, inhabitants from the other Dalmatian cities and from Italy. Albanian immigrants have settled in the eastern part of the city (Arbanasi) from 1726. By the end of 18th cent. population increased 57%. After Venice Republic fault (1797.), Zadar was in Habsburg monarchy (from 1867. Austro-Ugrian) until 1918. Short period (1806.-1814.) under French government. During this period Zadar has been the principal centre of Dalmatia. Since Austrian politics was isolation of Dalmatia from the rest of Croatia, Austrian government set Italian language as an official one of administration in Dalmatia and encouraged the immigrants from Italy to settle exclusively in the principal city (Zadar). At the end of Venetian government (1797.) Zadar had around 5.000 citizens, but very soon in the early 19th century it had 6.000. Also there were around 10.000 inhabitants of the islands and much more in the continental background so all together around 40.000 people gravitated to Zadar city. In the second half of 19th century population was continually increasing and 100% growth was marked in 50 years as a result of strong economic development. Zadar was annexed by Italy in 1915. Cutting off from its surrounding area meant hard times for Zadar and its population. The best proof is the fact that all other Dalmatian cities had demographic increase until 1931, especially Split (more than 100% growth), while Zadar decreased. A population list from 1921. – 15,804 citizens, 1931. – 17,358 citizens. In 30’s a lot of Italian soldiers were brought and concentrated in Zadar and therefore some demographic increase occurred. A population list published by Italians in 1936. – 20,022 citizens, 68% of them expressed themselves as Italians.

Even this number could have been smaller, since almost all Croatian names and surnames as well as the other toponyms were changed into Italian synonyms due to a fascistic regime and after the war changed into Croatian origin again.

After capitulation of Mussolini’s Italy in 1943., Zadar was occupied by Germans. In 1943. and 1944. Zadar was bombed 70 times by Allies and many people were killed. Only in a few first bombardments 2.000 of them. Also around 10.000 Italians escaped to Italy. These incidents changed the ethnical structure of Zadar’s population. From 1948. (~ 15.000 citizens) until 2007. (~ 80.000) the majority are Croats (>95%). [8]Zenanarh 14:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

History of noble families in Zadar

From the original scientific research made by Jelena Kolumbić “Grbovi zadarskih plemićkih obitelji” (“Coats of arms of the Zadar nobility”) UDK 949.75:929.6:929.7 (Zadar)[9]

Zadar is a city which has been existing for a few millenniums. In the long history it always tried to save its political and economical autonomy. From any new government it demanded recognitions of communal independence. Commune was directed by Communal council made of the eminent citizens – patricians, noblemen, although they didn’t have a class organization as the noblemen in the rest of Europe did. Actually they were civilian aristocracy which took the management of the city in their own hands and until 14th century they developed into an isolated group. This group couldn’t have been entered by new members for a long time and it finally happened at the end of Venetian ruling (late 18th cent.). At that moment the number of noble families was very small so Venetian government allowed the fulfillment of the noble society with new members. During the Middle Ages the rich citizens, patricians were appropriating main church and civil honors and trying to keep it for the members of their families. Patricians were contributing in the city government, in distinction from the members of the other social classes. Reformation of the city statute in 1458. made that any of Zadar citizens could become a member of the great council if their fathers or grandfathers had been already in. The statute of Zadar differenced 2 groups of the city population – cives and habitatores – citizens and habitants. Civety was a condition for acquirement of the membership in the councils of Zadar. The development of Zadar’s patricianity was connected to the profit from agriculture and trade. Venice had a great (the mostly negative) influence on evolution of Zadar patricians. Venetians were doing anything to subordinate the economy of Zadar to Venice. Also they tried to change the ethnical structure of Zadar’s population and to reduce the authorities of the domicile nobility by weakening their economical power. This politic was realized by evicts and persecutions of some of the noble families which started when Zadar felt into Venetian hands (1409.). During the period 1410.-1414. 47 noblemen were captured and sent to Venetian prisons. First of them were members of the families: Benja, Butovano, Civaveli, Galo, Galeli, Georgii (Jurjević), Ginano, Nassi, Pechiaro, Pomo, Sloradi, Soppe, Varicassi (Varikaše) and Zadulini. The next were: Cesanis, Calcina, Grisogoni, Kršava, Petrachis, Raducho, Rosa and Vitcor. Remaining nobles returned to Zadar in 1433. after Venice signing the peace treatment with Sigmund. Venice had installed 2 subjects on leading positions: duke who was completely subordinated to central government organization and Zadar’s commune; captain for military purposes. Apart from economical and political pressure by Venice, communal system regulated by statute orders enabled the nobles of Zadar to control the city by communal council. From 14th to 18th century the numbers of these noble families was decreasing and some of them even died out. In the different sources from 1442. to 1527. these families were mentioned: Arimondo, Begna, Bartolazzi, Batono, Calcina, Canaruto, Cipriano, Civaveli, Detrico, Dominis, Fanfogna, Ferra, Fumatis, Galelis, Grisogoni, Jurjevići (Georgiis), Justiniano, Kršava (Cressava), Ljubavac, Matafari, Nassi, Pechiaro, Rosa, Soppe, Zadulini. The council was closed for new members with the exception of Kolan Dražić (1573.) nobleman from Cres island. The number of nobles was considerably decreased in 17th century, only 60-70 members left in ~20 families, so Venetians government allowed the filling up of the noble society during 17th and 18th century but preferring the coming of strangers as an intention to additionally weaken the domicile families. New families were: Alberti, Lantana, Pellegrini, Fondra, Ponte, Posedarski, Soppe Fontezza. Zadar council enlarged in second half of 18th century the mostly with nobles from Nin (Croatian city in the west of Zadar). New families were: Grimaldi, Sanfermo, Pasquali, Stratico, Bianchini (1756. – 1789.) . The Great council had these members (20.07.1796.): Borelli, Ferrari, Lantana, Petricioli, Zanchi, Albinoni, Kreljanović, Dall’Acqua, Damjanić Vrgadski, Corponese, Carrara, Califi, Spalatin, Giusti, Parma, Salamoni, Ferro, Smiljanić, Mirković, Licini, Benvenuti. The fault of Venice Republic occurred 1797. New Austrian government admitted and affirmed the noblemen’s titles. French government affirmed their titles but not their privileges as well. In all this period (19th century) the nobility political influence was reduced and equalized to the citizens one so at the end both classes entered in the city council. New names were signed in the register of noble families in 19th and 20th cent. by Austrian government. They were eminent citizens who came later and were distinguished in cultural, economical or political life of Zadar. Considerable number of old Zadar noble families disappeared, died out or migrated out of the city until the beginning of the 19th century, so already at that moment there were a small number of noble families with origins in old Croatian nobility. New names in register (1838.-1911.) were: Ivan Felicinović, Josip Bersa, Gabriel Ivačić, Francesco Petris, Carlo Kutschig, Giusepe Sabalich, 4 members of Medici family, Nikola Nardeli, Josip Tončić.

It’s very hard to define the origins of some of these families mentioned in the previous text, since there were no notes in the sources of their roots in the moments they inhabited the city. Zadar and its surrounding were settled by families who belonged to old Croatian nobility. Some of them were: Nozdronja (Draganić), Lapčani, Posedarski (Gusić), Šubić… Different styles of writing personal names have made a lot of difficulties for investigators and impossibility of connecting some of the individuals to their families.

Albinoni

Alberti – a family from Split, came in Zadar in 17th century

Arimondo – Venetian noble family, Dominis and Justiniano were marked (16th) as the members of the council even they were not Zadar’s noblemen.

Batono(Botono) - one of the poorest noblemen with no particular influence in life of the city, mentioned in the notes from 14th to 16th century.

Dalmatian roots? (2 leaders of the last Illyrian rebellion against Roman Empire were both named – Baton!? – from Daesitiates tribe which was mixing with Dalmati tribe)

Benvenuti – old Italian family (13th century) from Bergamo, came to Zadar in 18th century, Angelo Benvenuti was the president of the court in Dubrovnik (1820.), Latin and Italian poetry, Angelo de Benvenuti – historian, pro-Italian writer in 20th cent., some Benvenuti’s left for Italy in 19th cent.

Benja (Begna, Benković) - they also used patronymic Kožičić of name Cosa (Coxa, Koša) – Croatian roots – one of the oldest families from Zadar, their family tree started with Dobre de Benja in 10th century, many members of the family were dealing in economical, political, clerical and cultural life of Zadar. Dobre, Dobrolus and Benko were the most frequent names found among them. Juraj Benja (- 1437.) was the collector and one of the first Croatian humanists, Šimun Kožičić Benja (1460. – 1536.) the bishop of Modruša, Senj, political engagement in Croatia. They got the title “conte” in 1669. Family got split in 19th cent. in a few branches: some of them were gone to Zagreb, others to Austria (conte Begna Benković) and Italy (Begna conti di Castel Bencovich).

Benja Posedarski – a branch of Benja’s (Posedarski originated in Gusić family), Austrian government excepted them as noblemen in 1806., Kuzma (1809. – 1885.) a representative of Dalmatian autonomists. Family left the city in 20th century.

Bianchini - Italian family accepted to nobility of Zadar in 1789. noted as noblemen of Split (1822.) but place of residence in Zadar and as noblemen of Zadar (1823.) but place of residence in Venice, lived from 1834. in Zadar and returned to Italy to the end of 19th cent.

Borelli – Italian family of Norman roots, came from Bologna to Zadar at the beginning of 18th century, rarely quickly assimilated in the new place and got naturalized until nowadays. Venice gave them feud of Vrana (1752.), Andrija was accepted to Zadar nobility in 1796. and was one of the most prominent follower of the French revolution in Dalmatia, Franjo Borelli – Dalmatian autonomist, their properties decreased by the end of 19th cent. but they were still eminent and influent people in the area, members of this family played important roles in political life in Dalmatia and some Borellis were noticed as artists.

Bortolazzi (de Bartolatijs, Bortolačić) – some members of one of the oldest Zadar families – Grisogono used surname adjective “de Bartholatijs”. They were noted in the sources much before 15th cent. During 16th century Bortolačić’s were adding Grižogoni and in 18th century Bortolazzi kept Grisogono. The duke gave them the title “conte” in 1781. In 19th cent. they were named only Bortolazzi and left the city. This family is of unknown roots, heraldic symbols of their coat of arms could be one of the oldest in Europe.

Butovano

Calcina (Calcena, Calcigna, Calzina, Chalcina, Galcigna, Galcina, Gauzigna, Kalcina) – the family has lived in Zadar 13th – 18th cent. Unknown roots (the most possible Dalmatian). First known was Marinus Calcina (1239.), Pauli de Calcigna – donator (1326.), Marin – in the surrender delegatation to Venice (1346.), Petar – taken away to Venice as a hostage (1414.), some of family members were interpreters of Croatian language, Ivan was notary public (1439.- 1492.), Grgur – principal councilor, fiscal advocate and the President of Zadar’s Economic Chamber (Kamerlengo) (died 1693.), Girardin - reviser of financial management in brotherhoods of Zadar, managing the system of taxes, fiscal advocate, kamerlengo, teacher of Croatian language (18th cent.). Family died out to the end of 18th cent.

Carrara – old Zadar family from the “citadins” class. Became the noblemen in 1796. but only Franjo kept the title during second Austrian ruling of Zadar. Their coat of arms was similar to the coat of arms of an Italian family in Italy with same surname – Carrara. They were probably among first Italians who settled in Zadar (16th ?)

Cedulini (Cedulinis, Cedilimus, Cedolini, Cedulinus, Ciedulini, Zadulini, Zadulinus, Zandulinus, Zedolinus, Zedolino) – old Zadar family, noted as noblemen in 1283. and 1384. Some of them used nicknames Salčić, Travašić, Moscatello, Babon. They were acting in the public, cultural, political and clerical life of Zadar from 12th to 17th century. In 15th cent. the time of Venetian persecution of the Zadar noblemen they lost a lot of their rich properties. Jerko, Donald (13th), Mihovil, Grgur (14th) were engaged in politics, judges, rectors, Šimun (16th) teologist and Latinist, Petar (17th) bishop. From 17th century no notes about them anymore.

Ciprianis (Cipriano, de Ciprianis) – the noble family that had lived in Zadar, Trogir and Split. First mentioned in the documents were the brothers Dobrana and Prestancije in 12th cent. Members of this family in 14th cent. managed some important positions in Zadar, they were judges and rectors, Zoilo – judge investigator and kamerlang in island of Pag, some Ciprianis were mentioned in the documents as donators. The family died out in 16th cent.

From the first sign they had typical Croatian names

Civaveli – old Zadar’s family, one of the most prominent in the city. In the notes from 1247. in the beginning the owners of the lands near Zadar, later on the islands and on other territories too. After 1409. their economical power decreased from Venetian anti-patrician politics. Anyway they saved a lot of their properties and were engaged in cultural, military and clerical life. Last Civaveli died in 1713.

Corponese – Šimun de Corponese – Venetian administrator and governor in 17th century, his descendant Petar came to Zadar at Venetian engagement and became Zadar’s nobleman in1796.. Family died out in 19th century.

Dall’Acqua - Italian family, accepted to Nin’s nobility in 1752. and then to Zadar’s in 1796. Left to Italy in 19th cent.

Damjanić Vrgadski (Damijanić, Domijanić, Damijanović, Damiani, Damiani de Vergada) – old Croatian family and noblemen from Poljica, (recognized as noblemen in 1605.), from the moment of Venetian ruling like many others they use Italian version of surname – Damiani. Settled in Šibenik and Zadar. Accepted in Zadar’s nobility in 1821. They lost their title in 1860.

Detrico (Detriko, de Trico, de Tricko, Tedrico, Tedricho, Detricho, Thetrico) old Zadar’s noble family of Roman roots. Members of this family were rich and eminent people in Zadar’s commune, elected on important positions in Zadar. First mentioned was Detricus in 13th cent. as strong landowner, Grgur (14th) judge and examinator, Šimun (14th – 15th) iudex examinator , successful in politics, got the title “miles”, a nobleman who accepted Venetian government and therefore realized a lot of privileges for his family including the title duke of Trogir. His descendants played important roles of Venetian politics in Dalmatia, engaged in military forces in the wars with Ottomans. Last male member Lujo died in 1749.

Fanfonja (Plebanis, Fantonja, Fafogna, Falfogna, de Fefognis, Fanfogna, Fafonić) – old Croatian noble family in Zadar, noted from 13th cent. In the beginning they used 2 surnames Fantonja and Plebanis. From 14th cent. the other versions too. Krševan – conductor of St. Mary’s church (1319.) and bishop in Šibenik, Venetians didn’t let them to participate on important positions in Zadar’s commune until 1520. Petar – “Illyrian” (Croatian) notar (1653.), Šimun – military commander (17th). This family left Zadar in 1840.

Ferra – old family in Zadar, their name is on the list of nobles found in St. Simeon’ s grave. Some of Ferras were the members of the city council; also they were mentioned in the church documents (1258. -1638.). The most of the Ferra’s properties were on islands Ugljan and Dugi otok. In 15th cent. some of the Ferras had advocatory and military positions. The last male ancestor of Ferra family was Ludovik – the troop commander in the Croatian cavalry (1705.)

Ferrari – Italian family accepted to Zadar’s nobility in 1796, died out in 19th century. Giovanni Maria (18th) – advocate and theologist, his writings were used by Italian historians of Zadar.

Fondra – old Venetian family titled “conte” in 1413. Settled in Zadar in 17th century.

Fondra Ferra – originated in marriage of members of Fondra and Ferra families. Died out in 19th century.

Fumatis – noted in 15th cent., members of council in second half of 15th cent and early 16th when disappeared or died out.

Galeli (Galelli, Kokošić, Galello, de Galeli, Galelis, Galellis, Galetus, Galio, Gallelli, Gallelis, Gallello, Gallis, Gallo, Gallus) – old Zadar’s patrician family of unknown roots – probably Croatian since they used 2 surnames until 15th cent. – Galeli and Kokošić, originated in the end of 13th century, more data in 14th century, owners of the lands deep in the Zadar’s background; Benedikt – evicted from Zadar by Venetians (1411.), Šimun – prisoned in Venice. This family was weakened a lot by Venetian politics, but anyway they survived. The most known Bernardin – humanist, advocate, general vicar of Krakow bishop’s diocese (16th), Franjo – member of Zadar’s Great council in 16th cent. Last data in 1611.

Ginanis – old patrician family in Zadar, agrar properties and finances, persecuted by Venetians, died out in 15th century.

Grisogono (de Grisogono, Grisogoni de Mauro, de Grisovanis, de Bartholatijs, Grisovano, de Grisogonis, de Grixogonis, de Grisogonis Schodeuich, Schodeuich, Duichoduich de Grisogonis, Crisogonis de Ducouich de Bartolatijs, Grižogoni) – family originated in Zadar of unknown roots, heraldic symbols of their coat of arms could be one of the oldest in Europe and were related to the Central Europe heraldics; on the noblemen list from 1283. Very rich and large family with a lot of properties in the islands and all Zadar’s background, dealing with trading and finances. Many members of this family were placed on important positions in Zadar’s commune, rectors, examinators, councilors and theologists. They were spreading their properties until 1450. They started to lose their positions under Venetian government, a member of this family was prisoned in Venice. Federik Grisogono (1472. – 1538.) - scientist, cosmographist, astrologist, mathematician, physicist, phylosophist, doctor, musicologist, student colleague of Nikola Kopernik Last Grisogono was Ivan – died in 1765.

Grubonja (Grubogna) – Croatian family with small properties, last mentioned in documents in 15th cent.

Jurjević (de Georgiis, de Georgijs) - old Zadar noble family of Croatian roots from 12th and 13th century. They (Franjo, Ludovik, Pavao) played an important political role in resistance to Venetians, and had principal positions in other Dalmatian cities (Trogir, Pag, Šibenik, Rab). Filip Jurjević lost all of his properties (1402.), 2 members of Jurjević family were hostages in Venice (Pavao and Ludovik de Georgiis -1412.). Died out in 16th cent.

Karnarutić (Carnaruto) – old noble family of Croatian origin, members of the council in 15th cent., Brne (16th) – captain of Croatian cavalry in Venetian army, administrator, writer. Died out in

Kotopanja (Cotopagna) – in sources from 12th century, got their name from catapanus (Byzantine administrator) , at first the landowners in the islands, in 13th cent. they spread their properties on the continental lands too. Died out in 14th cent.

Kreljanović Albinoni (Kreglianovich) – Croatian family from Senj, titled as “knights”, settled in Zadar in 18th century, they were participating in cultural, economical and political life.

Kršava (Cresava, Cressava, Cressavis, Kršavić) – Croatian family belonged to older noble families, found in the documents in 13th cent. In 15th century they were persecuted as the enemies of Venetian government but also found as members of the city council in 15th and 16th cent. The last marks about this family were in the beginning of 17th cent.

Lantana - Italian family from Bergamo, accepted to Zadar’s nobility in 1796.

Lapčani – old Croatian noblemen, properties in Karin, Jurislav was a judge. Their properties felt to the ownership of St. Krševan monastery in 18th and 19th century when this family vanished.

Lemeš - died out in

Licini (Latičić) – old Croatian family from Poljica near Zadar which moved in Zadar and died out in 19th century.

Ljubavac (Giliubavaz) – rich family in the 15th cent. , members of the city council. The most known was Šimun Ljubavac (1608.-1663.) historian, writer and teacher. Croatian roots.

Martinušić (de Martinussio) – Vučina was donator (1326.), after 14th cent. not noted in the sources anymore. Croatian roots.

Matafari – old patrician family in Zadar, in 13th century they got their name from nickname “Matafar” (murderer in Italian). They were successful businessmen and traders. The most frequent name found in this family was Vučina. They were enlarging their land properties in 13th cent. out of Zadar district. Members of this family were followers of Ladislav of Napoliand and were Venetian enemies. Nikola (14th) – an author of “Thesarus pontificum” and probably “Obsidio”, Petar (14th) - the bishop, on the noblemen list in 1527. and members of Great council, in 1557. not any notes about them anymore. Croatian roots.

Mirković – Croatian family, noted in 15th century, a branch of old Zoranić family that was settled in the island of Pag changed their name into Mirković – Ivan (1433.), Matija and Nikola (1503.) got title “conte paladino”, last nobleman was Aleksandar in 18th century.

Nassi (de Nassis, Našić) – old patrician family in Zadar, got their surname from their ancestor Nasce di Bivaldo; one of the richest family in 13th and 14th century. After 1409. their properties decreased, 5 members of the family were prisoned in Venice (1411.). They contributed in the council work in 15th and 16th cent. Died out in 19th cent.

Nozdronja (de Nosdrogna, Nozdronjić) – belonged to the Croatian tribe of Draganić, settled in Zadar in 13th cent. Died out in 15th cent.

Parma – old Italian noble family in Parma(Italy), Ivan came to Zadar in 1750. Died out in 19th cent.

Pečar (Pechiaro) – Croatian family, rich properties of this family were first mentioned in 1275., in 15th century they were members of council, rectors, councilors and as many others persecuted by Venetians.

Pellegrini – Venetian roots, noblemen in island of Hvar with surname Dobretić, Pellegrino changed his surname into Pellegrini (1480.). His descendants came to Zadar in 17th cent.

Pellegini Danieli – a branch of Pellegrini’s, titled in 1826.

Petrachis

Petricioli – Italian roots (Brescia) accepted to Nin’s nobility (1775.) and in Zadar(1796.), gave their contribution to cultural and economical development of Zadar.

Petrizo (Petrica) – one of the oldest patricians of Zadar; Ivan – judge (1384.), Toma – helped Venetians to conquer Zadar in 1409. Died out in 15th cent.

Pomo

Ponte – Italian family (Bergamo), first mentioned in Dalmatia was Ivan in 17th cent. Noblemen of Zadar from 1694.

Posedarski (de Posedarie) – from Croatian tribe Gusić, Slavogost – the landowner in Posedarje (north of Zadar) in 1456. They escaped from Otomans and settled in Zadar, members of Zadar’s nobility from 1694. The marriage of Dinka and Josip Benja – a new surname Benja Posedarski.

Qualis – old noble family, owners of the lands in Biograd’s background, Rogovi and island of Pašman, they were spreading their properties later, but after 1387. they were mentioned only as traders. It’s presumed that this family died out until the beginning of 15th century.

Radučo (Raducho, Raduchis, Radući, Raduko) – Jakov was one of the most eminent citizens of Zadar in 14th cent. engaged in politics, 3 members of this family were prisoned in Venice.

Rosa – first mentioned at the end of 13th cent., before that this family was called Scolatura, on the list of nobles in 1384., increasing their properties in Zadar background (14th and 15th cent.), one member was the hostage in Venice, some were in the city council but with low political influence, they lived under Venetian pressure. After 16th cent. not connected to Zadar anymore.

Saladin (de Saladinis) – got the properties even outside of Zadar district, came from the east – Byzantium origin, Cosa Saladin was the richest man at the end of 13th century, got the highest honours in the period of Anguvines ruling. After 14th cent. this family was not noted anymore.

Sanfermo – old Italian family (Verona) – accepted to Zadar’s nobility in 1784.

Smiljanić – came to Dalmatia from Lika in 17th cent., many members were engaged in wars with Turks, noblemen of Zadar from 1796. Died out in 19th cent.

Soppe – old Zadar’s noble family, mentioned in 12th cent. Strong landowners in 14th cent., losing their properties in 2nd half of 15th cent. under Venetian government, contributing in publical, cultural and clerical life of Zadar until the early 19th cent.

Soppe Fortezza – a branch of Soppe

Soppe Papali – a branch of Soppe

Stratiko (Stratico) – Greek origin, from Crete. Escaped from Otomans and settled in Split, Zadar and Italy in 17th century. First known member was Ivan with important political positions in Dalmatia given by Venetian government. 3 of his sons played important roles in science and culture of both Dalmatia and Italy: Šimun (1733. – 1824.) doctor of medicine, professor in the University of Padova, a few important positions in Italy, senator; Grgur (1736. – 1806.) administrator, collector and poet in Zadar; Ivan Dominik (1732. – 1799.) the most known member of the Stratiko family – a “wonder-kid” in science, professor on 2 Italian universities, teologist, reformator, the bishop of Novigrad and Hvar-Brač-Vis islands;

Šubić – a branch of Šubić Bribirski (Cassano, de Cesano, Cesanis, Cisano) – Croatian family settled in Zadar in 1324. Members of Zadar Commune, land properties in Jošani; Jakov – son of Matej, was a prisoner in Venice, after escape became a king Ludovik’s councilor for Dalmatian and Croatian questions, the duke of Hvar-Brač-Vis and admiral. Meant a lot of trouble to Venetians. This family branch died out in 15th cent.

Varikaša (Varicasso, de Varicasis) – Croatian roots, among the most richest noblemen in 14th century, important positions in Zadar commune, rectors, judges, deputies. They were very successful in economics until the Venitian ruling of Zadar. After 15th century they were not connected to Zadar anymore.

Vitcor (de Victor) – noted in 2nd half of 14th and early 5th century. Persecuted by Venetians.

Zanchi – Italian roots (Bergamo), noticed in culture and economics. First Zanchi came to Zadar in 1674.

Zloradi (Sloradi, Soloradis) – old patrician family in Zadar of Croatian origin, mentioned in 12th cent., big property in 14th century, Bartul was a hostage in Venice (1412.). Died out in 15th century.

Drechia and Rave families were also marked as noble ones in some historical sources. Families Nassi, Grisogono, Benja and Fanfonja could be the oldest patrician families in Zadar.

It,s easy to notice that almost all earlier noble families found in the sources (10th – 16th) fall into Croatian and Dalmatian ethno-pool. Individuals of that “Dalmatian” ethnicity were actually the mostly Roman speaking natives (Illyrian genetical heritage). Some of them could have been of Greek, Latin, Byzantine, Frank or Gothic roots too if we presume that they survived population changes a few centuries ago. We can see that their names have Romanian (Dalmatian) and Croatian shape or both. From 10th century they obviously used both languages. Once again - this Roman language (Dalmatic) was formed from the Latin basis in the way that it was adjusted to native Illyrian speaking and in the area populated with Illyrians. It has nothing to do with Italian language, which is by the way formed in the same way but in the territory of present-day Italy. This is important fact because Italian expansionists abused (and still abuse) the form of these names to prove or conclude that they had (have) some historical rights on this territory - eastern coast of Adriatic sea, which by the way has never been populated by Italians with the exception of some Dalmatian cities (especially Zadar) and in much later ages. Italians as the citizens inhabited these cities not earlier than 17th or 18th cent. in the moments when Venetian occupation was a ~200 years long fact, encouraged by privileges given from Italian governments. In addition Italians has never formed the majority in Zadar (except 1930. – 1943.) and what’s the most important there have never been Italian settlers out of the city borders.

By history the rulers of Zadar from 10th century were Croats and the city was the part of Croatia (or Croatia-Hungary dual kingdom) until 15th century.

First Italians came to Zadar after Venetian conquering in 15th century, but these people were only some administrators and soldiers. Some significant Italian populating of Zadar occurred not earlier than 18th cent. and culminated in 20th cent. The most of noble Italian families stayed for a short time in Zadar, the same goes for Italian citizens.

Nobody can say that Zadar have Italian roots. It’s much more correct to say that Zadar have Liburnian roots. In the other words this city belongs to the people who still live there at the present as they have lived for 3.000 years and are incorporated in Croatian identity for last 1.300 years. Italian politics in Zadar from first half of 20th century was pretending that Zadar is Italian city and obviously relied Italian history teaches modern Italians to think the same way.

Original scientific research by Šime Peričić: “O broju Talijana/Talijanaša u Dalmaciji XIX. Stoljeća” (“Concerning the number of Italians/pro-Italians in Dalmatia in the XIXth century”), Zavod za povijesne znanosti HAZU u Zadru, UDK 949.75:329.7”19”Dalmacija [10]

Summary:

The long submerged aspirations of Italian irredentism regarding the occupation and appropriation of Dalmatia, of Zadar especially, has recently again, even in a muted fashion, come out into the open. This aspiration has always been founded on the supposedly large number of Italians who lived in Dalmatia during the XIXth century. Instigated by this appropriative aspirations the author makes an attempt once again, after Ivo Rubić and Dinko Foretić, to establish the number of Italians/pro-Italians who lived in Dalmatia during the said century or, to be more precise, up to WWI. He relies on extant literature, publications which have not yet been known and on rare archival sources. For the sake of objectivity he approaches the matter from a number of perspectives – from the autonomist/irredentist, the populist and the official perspective – contending that this is the only way to approach at least approximately precise numbers and the true state of affairs. From the available sources it is clear that the pro-Italians, led by their interests, exaggerated the number of Italians living in Dalmatia at the time, confusing national affiliation with those who spoke the Italian language. Many autonomists/pro-Italians hid behind the concept of the Dalmatians thinking this an easier strategy to make the region Italian. The opposing side generally relied on the official Austrian census which showed a gradual decrease of the number of Italians/pro-Italians especially after 1882. Namely, some of the Croats and Serbs who had declared themselves otherwise returned to their root identities while the real Italians moved to Istria, Trieste, the Slovenian coast or found sanctuary in Zadar, the last bastion of the pro-Italian faction in Dalmatia. Proportionately to the decrease in the number of Italians within the region there was a drop in Italian speakers and those who attended their elementary schools so that the contention “Dalmatia is pure Italian land” is without any support. This was the case in the past and such is the situation nowadays. Zenanarh 14:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of these families have peacefully assimilated into Croats. Peacefully croatized, even during the rule of Venice. Italian immigrants merged into Croat majority. Example is with Zanchi. [11]. That's scientific article from author M. Diklić, titled Don Pavao Zanki (1839.-1909.) preporoditelj i političar ninskog kraja, Rad. Zavoda povij. znan. HAZU Zadru, sv. 42/2000, str. 309-331.. The works of Historical Department of HAZU (Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts). The translation of that science work is "Don Pavao Zanki, risorgimentist (note: fighter for Croat risorgimento, national renaissance) and politician of the area of Nin". Kubura 12:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

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