Talk:Zheng He/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

This is a summary outline by Weston.pace of the debate archived on the previous page. Please use this page for reference and feel free to continue the debate at the sandbox forum devoted to this topic. Thank you.

Zheng He Medallion

Summary of points made so far

Talk:Zheng_He has had an ongoing discussion regarding the above. I have brought the points from Talk:Zheng_He to this section. I have done my best to insert none of my own observations in the transfer of information, as I am not knowledgeable in this area, I am merely trying to summarize the information. Any of my comments are signed and added after the transfer. Weston.pace 15:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC) (Updated) Weston.pace 20:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

This is just a summary of the points made so far in the previous sections, brought over here for friendly discussion.

The Medallion

"In June 2006, Siu-Leung Lee (Columbus, Ohio) presented evidence that might indicate contact of Ming Chinese and Pre-Columbian Americans. A 7-cm diameter brass disk has been unearthed in a scantly populated Appalachian region of west North Carolina. It bears the inscription of six Chinese words "Da Ming Xuan De Wei Ci", meaning "commissioned to be granted by Xuan De the emperor of Great Ming". Xuan De was the fifth emperor of Ming dynasty that dispatched Zheng He for the last voyage (1431). The disk (or medallion) is unearthed at a site that was the cultural center of Cherokee, which is known to be one of the most culturally advanced of the native American tribes." - sllee19 (I assume sllee19 was author, quote was unsigned)

Assuming the brass disk is not a forgery -- and considering that it could have been left in the ground at any time between its creation in the 14th century and its discovery in the 20th century -- it might well have gone around the world by way of India, Africa, and Europe, to be conveyed to the Indians by a Spanish trader. (The southeastern Indians possessed other objects of Spanish origin, and their languages include Spanish loan words.) This seems far more likely than a direct transmittal by Zheng He's mariners, who left no other surviving physical traces in North America. -Rob C (Alarob) 19:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Answer-Going throught so many countries and traders like you describe, the coin would have been lost. Chinese physical traces were there, but because of neglect in the past 600 years, they got either burried, forgotten, and simply lost. Native Indians were not going to preserve any of your belonging unless you are very meaningful to them. -T.D. - T.D.

A Xuan De medallion was unearthed around 1996 in a scantly populated area of North Carolina. . Its inscription says "authorized gift by Xuan De, the Great Ming emperor" (大明宣德委锡) - sllee19

It is well documented in Ming history that every new emperor would announce to the other nations of his enthronement by dispatching envoys and gift medallions inscribed with the new reign era (nian hao年号). The medallion was brass, a new technology just started in Xuan De era, when they learned how to distill and re-capture pure zinc(a comparatively low boiling metal). Brass is made by mixing zinc with copper and tin. Tian gong kai wu 天工開物 by SongYingxing

Xuan De is famous for his brass censers. - sllee19

The provenance of the brass medallion (which you own) remains a secret, and this makes it difficult to evaluate some of your claims about it. Allowance must be made for the possibilities that it is a forgery, a replica, or that, if authentic, it was conveyed to North America by someone other than Zheng He's mariners in the five centuries between its creation and its rediscovery. It cannot be accepted as irrefutable evidence of Zheng He's presence in America just because its owner says so. -Rob C (Alarob)

Lee - The medallion was analyzed at Ohio State University by one of the best of three scan electron microscopes in America using energy dispersion spectroscopy. It has been the subject of my lectures in Hong Kong to the Royal Geographic Society (HK is the only overseas branch of this British institute), University of Hong Kong, City University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong History Mueum, Foreign Correspondent Club, all in 2006, and then in Chinese Culture Centre of Greater Toronto (the largest Chinese culture center of N. America) in 2007. A summary is posted on my website with pictures and analysis. A forum is set up to invite discussion. How can any one call it secretive? My presentation is open to critique of any kind. If it look secretive to some, it is because some people are constantly suppressing the publication of the data and repeatedly removing the section in Wikipedia. - sllee19

I have read everything I could find online about the medallion, and have not been able to find the basic archaeological facts: where it was unearthed, what items were found nearby that would help date it. The analysis you describe may not tell us much about the age of the object; although it may prove that it was made in China, it cannot prove that it was Ming China, unless I am very much mistaken.-Rob C (Alarob)

The Wikipedia has limited space for discussing details. The detailed analysis of the medallion have been given in my talks in Hong Kong. It is also archived in Ohio State University's Department of Material Sciences and Engineering site. The erroneous accusation of Geoff Wade that brass was only available in China very recently is a statement of ignorance. In fact, the best dating for the medallion is its composition and manufacture because Xuan De era was the time when China could make brass intentionally. The medallion shows heterogeneity of blending the metals, yet clearly shows the incorporation of zinc. - sllee19

Wrong Half Of The Continent

If Zheng He approached the North American continent from the west, why would the only physical evidence of the visit occur in the east, through tribes near the Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico? Why wasn't the brass disk found in, e.g., California or near the Pacific coast of Mexico?-Rob C (Alarob)

Zheng He's fleet apparently continued traveling west after the east coast of Africa, around Cape of Good Hope. They would be easily brought to the Caribbean by the current of the south Atlantic. A map drawn before Zheng He set sail has shown the entire Africa (混一疆理历代国都之图,1402). There was a small protruding west Africa because they were with the current. [1] The map drawn by Europeans coming from the reverse direction had a bigger protrusion of west Africa. [2] (Historic Africa Map 1561 [1575] Girolamo Ruscelli) -- Sllee19 19:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC) (UTC)

Answer-Zheng He and his crew have approached America in several directions, North and South, East and West, it's a matter of time in finding the evidence, yet we are talking about a small medallion the size of a coin, the chance is very slim to find it again. - T.D.

That's what the evidences have showed so far, Zheng He and his crew have landed in North and South America, the West and East coast of North America, and ofcourse the Southern tip of America. - T.D.

The Big Dipper Flag

The Cherokee tribe had a flag with the Big Dipper, but they only associated that with the seven clans without knowing the meaning of the Big Dipper as a constellation. This flag may be an imported concept from China. The Big Dipper has been a symbol of Chinese emperors since Zhou dynasty. According to the official history of Song, Jin, Yuan, Ming and Qing, a Big Dipper flag was always used as a central display in the imperial parade. The Big Dipper was especially revered during the Ming dynasty as a symbol of Daoism, a favorite of the Ming emperors. Zheng He also used the Big Dipper as his navigation guide (Chinese: ). Peace and war flags were used by Zheng He's fleet when encountering friends or foes in their visit to new lands. The Cherokees also had the Big Dipper flag made for peace (white with red stars) and war (red with white stars). (Unsigned, assuming sllee19 )

The supposed Big Dipper flag of the Cherokees is based on a single secondary source and may never have existed. Even if it did, there is no reason to assume that 19th-century Cherokees were influenced in their choice by a 15th-century Chinese mariner, any more than were the good people of Alaska. -Rob C (Alarob)

The Big Dipper flag of Alaska was designed by a thirteen year old John Bell ("Benny") in a 1927 contest. [3] [4] If anyone got the idea from someone else, it should Benny from the Cherokee, not the other way round. Historically, the Big Dipper is known to many peoples. However, other than the Chinese Big Dipper flag, the only other Big Dipper flags known are East Karelia (Russia) 1918, Irish Citizen's Army 1916, and the Alaskan flag 1927, all were designed in the 20th century. The earliest record of Chinese Big Dipper flag is found in a bamboo strip in a Han tomb (no. 247 Han tomb in Zhang Jia Shan, Hubei province, excavated 1983) about the use of Big Dipper flag by the Wu general in the Chun Qiu era (770-476 BC) -- Sllee19 01:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

the use of the 'flag color' to communicate is also key, that is Chinese's and mariners' way of communication on the sea. There are hundreds and thousands of way of using colors- combinations and designs with various objects, shapes(and stripes for example,) it's too coincidental that the Indian tribe and Zheng He's crew used the same flag, with same pattern and the same two color schemes with two contrasting purpose of using the back and front of the two color to signify peace and war. Highly probable the two groups have had lasting contact and exchanges with each other at this point. I mean if I was Indian, to communicate with other Indians I would probably have used an ax or other weapons symbols to signify war, then maybe a peace pipe flag to call for truce or peace. - T.D.

The Cherokee used to carry a flag with the Big Dipper, which has been the symbol of the Chinese Emperor in the imperial parade for Song, Jin, Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties, as recorded in the official history. The big dipper is one unique constellation that never sets below the horizon in the northern hemisphere, and is used as the symbol of the emperor. The Big Dipper is especially important to the Ming emperors who were devoted believers of Daoism that uses Big Dipper as the key symbol. In the illustrated publication by Luo Mao Deng(罗懋登 d. ~1596)about Zheng He's journeys , a picture of Zheng He riding a horse is led by a soldier carrying a Big Dipper flag. - sllee19

The Cherokee Big Dipper flag is quoted from Whitney Smith's Flag Book of the United States . Dr. Whitney_Smith, a world authority in flag research, is the one who gave the name Vexicology to the study of flags. - sllee19

Chinese had been observing the stars since at least 6500 years ago. Since Chunqiu era, a group of courtiers was assigned to watch and record the stars daily. Maps of the 28 constellations and the Big Dipper are numerous in Chinese literature. - sllee19

The Big Dipper was found in the burial of an important leader with shells arranged as a dragon and a tiger (the first dragon symbol in China). - sllee19

Cherokee only knew about the sun, the moon, and stars in general. [James Mooney, Myths of the Cherokee, originally published by US Government Printing Office, 1900]. There is no written language for Cherokee to pass down the observation of constellations, the concept of which would take generations to develop. Cherokee did not have any written language until the 1800s. Cherokee_language - sllee19

The Crow Indians also had a flag with Big Dipper, which they called "Carrier of Messages". . The Big Dipper was removed in their later flags, but it was recorded in Dr. Whitney Smith's book. [Who was the carrier? What messages was he carrying? We know Zheng He was dispatched to announce the enthronement of Xuan De. That is the message, and Zheng He the carrier.] - sllee19

There has never been any Big Dipper in European flags and American flags prior to the 20th century. - sllee19

Red flag and white flag were first developed in China during the downfall of Shang dynasty. The war flag of Zhou was red. The term war flag (戎旃) include color red in a word. The last Shang emperor was beheaded and his head hung on a white flag to indicate surrender, peace. The Cherokee's red war flag and white peace flag obviously adopted the same meanings and design of the Chinese flags. - sllee19

There is a bronze Big Dipper flag erected in Ming dynasty (1602AD)still hoisted in the golden temple in Kunming, Yunnan. - sllee19

The significance of Big Dipper (or Seven Stars) in Chinese is seen in every city. There is not a single city that does not have something related to the Big Dipper. It is a symbol of China just as much as the dragon. - sllee19

Branch One

It is apparently your view that every culture in which red and white were significant colors must have been molded by the Chinese. What's more, any coincidental resemblance to an element of Chinese culture is taken, in your analysis, as proof of a Chinese imprint. This is a fundamental error in reasoning.-Rob C (Alarob)

Whether the use of red or white flags have any influence on others is a different question. Chinese do have the record as the first to have such flags with the correct symbolism as we see today. - sllee19

It does not follow that every other culture that assigns great significance to red-white pairs was influenced by Chinese culture. Do you see what I mean? Also, the red and white moieties among southeastern tribes did not simply represent "war" and "peace." This is an error that is often repeated (including in some Wikipedia articles). We can pursue that further if necessary. -Rob C (Alarob)

I am referring to the Cherokee convention of using red and white color for war and peace. They also have war and peace chiefs dressed in red and white. - sllee19

Branch Two

I have the highest respect for native Americans on their contribution to the world, especially on agriculture. I would be happy to hear any record of watching stars by Cherokee and Catawba. So far there is none. The constellation assignments by Chinese and Europeans (Greeks) have many differences. There are many ways to associate the stars into certain constellation systems. There is no reason why the Cherokee should view the Big Dipper as a system and isolate that from the millions of other stars. Their interpretation of the stars on the Big Dipper flag was a representation of their 7 brothers. - sllee19

American Indian cultures had oral traditions that, in some cases, have largely disappeared since the 18th century. Our only evidence that Indians watched the sky and created lore about the stars is in myths that have been written down. So we have evidence from many tribes that the Big Dipper was known as the "Big Bear," and that Indians were aware of the apparently fixed position of the Pole Star. I am not aware of a preserved Cherokee tradition about the constellation, but I would hesitate to conclude that they did not have one. It would require an assumption that a people could look at the stars every night for thousands of years without noticing much about them.-Rob C (Alarob)

I am aware of the Cherokee referring to the Big Dipper as "Yonega" (bear), which could be the interpretation taught by Europeans. Cherokee only refer to the stars as 7 brothers, not the constellation. - sllee19

N.B. The Cherokee word yona (ᏲᏅ) means "bear." I am not sure what yonega means, perhaps "Great Bear." - Rob C (Alarob)

Correction - Yona is bear. Yonega is white. I was trying to comment simultaneously on bear (yona) and white (yonega, unega) and made the typo. Without making too much association, "bear" in Hakka Chinese is "yong", very similar to "yona" in Cherokee. On Zheng He's ships, there were many Hakka-speaking people. Today, the people of Jingdezhen, the porcelain capital of China (and the world)speak a dialect reminiscent of Hakka. Many ethnic Chinese in southeast Asia could be traced from the days of Zheng He. Their major dialect is Hakka. Hakka was most likely the most spoken dialect from Tang to Song dynasty. Mandarin is a late comer to the Chinese language system. I have been hosting the world's first and top ranking Hakka site since 1995(see asiawind.com). -- Sllee19 17:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

P.S. In doing some online checking, I found that one "Big Bear" legend is labeled as Iroquois on one website and Cherokee on another. Unfortunately neither one gives a source for the text, which is identical. In any case the Cherokee language is related to the Iroquois languages, and the two groups were in frequent contact. -- Rob C (Alarob)

The Clay Loan Word

The Catawba tribe along the coast of South Carolina is still the most capable potters among native Americans. They continue to make a three-legged pot resembling the famous Xuan De censer, a special design by the Ming emperor. The knowledge of the Catawba on processing raw clay into refined clay for pottery was notably advanced. While England had been trying to learn the secret of porcelain making from China without success, their first porcelain industry came only after importing the china clay from Catawba/Cherokee. The word for china clay in Cherokee is "unaker", a corruption of English transliteration of Chinese southern dialect "uk-na(ke)" (-ke is silent). The term was used during Ming dynasty and later gradually replaced by Kaolin (Gaolingtu) in Qing dynasty. - sllee19 (Assumed)

The presumed kinship between Cherokee unaker and southern Chinese uk-na (plus silent -ke) is extremely improbable. The resemblance is superficial, based solely on the two words' appearance when transcribed into the Roman alphabet, and makes no attempt to show that unaker is a loan word and not Iroquoian. (Cherokee is closely related to the Iroquois languages.) -Rob C (Alarob)

A loan word could be from Chinese. - T.D.

The Cherokee calls china clay "unaker" similar to Chinese 垩泥, the Cherokee also uses "unega" for the color white. This is the same usage as the word "垩" meaning white and china clay in Chinese. This is definitely a borrowed term like chocolate and chocolate color, orange and orange color.(Unaker and unega are just English transliteration of the Cherokee language. They are never accurate, just like Cherokee is a degeneration of Tsalagi). - sllee19

PS. The Cherokee word "unaker" or "unega" specifically refers to the processed white clay for making pottery. [5] There is another word "guadaguali" or "guadaguala" for common clay. "Unega" also means white, exactly the same as for the Chinese word 垩, meaning white clay for porcelain. -- Sllee19 17:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The Catawba call china clay "i-to" or "i-tu", the same pronunciation as "e-tu" or "e-to" (垩土) in Chinese Cantonese, Hakka, Minnan, the dialects the potters would have used in Ming dynasty. Catawba and Cherokee have different languages, but they call china clay by similar pronunciation as Chinese did in Ming dynasty. [tu 土 is dry clay, na(ke) 泥 is wet clay]. In Qing dynasty, the term e-tu was replaced by "Gaolingtu" 高岭土(Kaolin by the English) when they found a new source of china clay. This is consistent with the fact that the Catawba and Cherokee were in contact with Chinese in Ming dynasty. - sllee19

With an otherwise much less developed culture, the Catawba was superior to the advanced Europeans at that time in their knowledge of china clay processing. The English porcelain industry was only founded after Andrew Duché imported china clay to England from the American Indians through Savanna and Charleston. The Catawba was not making porcelain and their technique of pottery was much more primitive (no spinning wheels), implying that they only learned the method of collecting and processing clay and making pottery after a model of Xuan De censer. Today, this area in N. Carolina is still known to have the best potters in US.- sllee19

Pottery Technology

The Catawba tribe along the coast of South Carolina is still the most capable potters among native Americans. They continue to make a three-legged pot resembling the famous Xuan De censer, a special design by the Ming emperor. The knowledge of the Catawba on processing raw clay into refined clay for pottery was notably advanced. While England had been trying to learn the secret of porcelain making from China without success, their first porcelain industry came only after importing the china clay from Catawba/Cherokee. The word for china clay in Cherokee is "unaker", a corruption of English transliteration of Chinese southern dialect "uk-na(ke)" (-ke is silent). The term was used during Ming dynasty and later gradually replaced by Kaolin (Gaolingtu) in Qing dynasty. - sllee19

The three-legged pot can be traced back to ancient Mexican and Mississippian culture. The Chinese were not the only people on earth who found such a design useful. -Rob C (Alarob)

Now that you mentioned, Mexican people and cultures have the most resemblance to Chinese people and culture. Zheng He and his crew also have been to mexico, as evidenced by the 1418 Chinese map, Zheng He's map makers wrongly drawn the island/peninsula of Gulf of California, which belongs to Mexico geographically, erroneously conjoined it with California, the island/peninsula was misplaced, and this misplacement only proved Zheng He and his crew have been to Mexico, and ofcourse California also, thus the West and East coast of North America. If Europeans have been to the places they would not have misdrawn the map as Europeans map makers were more accurate in their drawings. - T.D.

The Catawba potters still make a traditional tripod that they claim to have thousands years of history. . These tripods bear great resemblance to Xuan De censer, which in turn are copies from the best looking ding and other tripods in Chinese pottery and bronze ware. These tripods are unique and well distinguished from the Central American tripods in shape. - Sllee19

With an otherwise much less developed culture, the Catawba was superior to the advanced Europeans at that time in their knowledge of china clay processing. The English porcelain industry was only founded after Andrew Duché imported china clay to England from the American Indians through Savanna and Charleston. The Catawba was not making porcelain and their technique of pottery was much more primitive (no spinning wheels), implying that they only learned the method of collecting and processing clay and making pottery after a model of Xuan De censer. Today, this area in N. Carolina is still known to have the best potters in US. - Sllee19

John Lawson (d. 1711), the first Englishman who traveled up to Carolina, met Indians and recorded that he saw the biggest iron pot he has even seen. American Indians never had iron technology. They had a brief encounter with De Soto, who did not carried much food, let alone a big heavy iron pot. A large crew like Zheng He's fleet would need to equip with such a big iron pot to feed hundreds of people at a time. - Sllee19

Lawson's sighting of a large iron pot among the Cherokees is not so surprising, unless one assumes that they never saw a European between Soto's expedition in the 1540s and Lawson's at the end of the 1690s. There is no need to introduce a Chinese mariner to explain it.-Rob C (Alarob)

You assume that North American Indians were childlike primitives with impaired vision until Zheng He enlightened them. Somehow the Indians were unable to perceive patterns in the stars or to describe them to one another, to make decent pots, or even to come up with a word for the color white on their own. I don't wish to be unkind, so I will not attempt to describe this assumption -Rob C (Alarob)

Lawson and De Soto came through Carolina at different times by very different routes. Lawson is the first European to have traveled and made records of Carolina. If De Soto was the one who left the iron pot, then proper reference should be given. - Sllee19

You have cited James Mooney's Myths of the Cherokees, but overlooked his reference to archaeological and place-name evidence of continuing contact with the Spanish after 1540 and through the 1600s. When I have access to my copy of Mooney, I will provide a specific citation if you like. The point: Not all early contacts between Indians and Europeans are recorded in surviving records, so one should not assume that a gap in the records means an absence of contact. -Rob C (Alarob)

The route of De Soto has been an intense investigation available by Googling. - Sllee19

Indian Crops In China

Corn, sweet potato, pumpkin, peanut and a "smoking grass" (tobacco)were mentioned in a Yunnan Herbal book, authored by Lan Mao (1397-1441 AD) . He died 50 years before Columbus 'discovered' America. His book was 140 years before Materia Medica (Ben Cao Gang Mu 本草纲目) by Li ShiZhen(1558-1593), , who also mentioned corn, sweet potato, and pumpkin, in his publication. All of these plants are well known native American crops not available in any other continent before.- Sllee19

I cannot read Chinese, so am unable to evaluate your claims for 滇南本草 (Diannan ben cao) by 兰茂 (Mao Lan; note that Lan Mao is a cartoon character). I wish you (or someone) would begin a Wikipedia article about this 15th-century author. Your claims for his book need to be better sourced, however. It is not enough to mention the title, especially when you wish to use the book to overturn the consensus of both Chinese and American historians about both Zheng He and Columbus. -Rob C (Alarob)

A great deal of the article on Zheng He is based on translation of original Chinese texts. If one cannot read Chinese, how can he qualify to have the authority to edit any of the articles based on Chinese original? Lan Mao is the proper name of the person as addressed traditionally in Chinese (Family name first, given name last). Not knowing this fact is totally ignorant of Chinese culture. Associating that with a cartoon character is not even worthy of commenting. If the editor challenges Lan Mou should be Mou Lan, should he propose to rename Zheng He as He Zheng? Rather than just quoting the name and author of the book as bibliography, I have cited even the library source for the readers to easily find the book in the closest library. - Sllee19

Thanks for clarifying the proper use of the name Lan Mao. I got the inverted order from your link to the book at Worldcat. I know about the proper order of Chinese names, and had assumed that the WorldCat compilers also know, and that you had made an understandable error in recollecting the name. I also looked for Wikipedia references to Lan Mao and only encountered the "Blue Cat" cartoon character. (Would you like to begin an article on Lan Mao, the author?) In your answer above, you spell the name as "Lan Mou" instead of Lan Mao. Was that a typo or a deliberate choice? I am not trying to give offense by asking. -Rob C (Alarob)

My interpretation of your passage led me to Mu Lan (another cartoon, the female warrior)which could be spelled as Mou Lan (French). The lack of knowledge and citation to the original Chinese name would be the source of a great deal more misunderstandings. - Sllee19

Indian Silk

In Columbus's own description, he saw "Indians" dressed in silk. [Where did they get silk? Who had silk at that time?] - Sllee19

Your assertion that Columbus saw Indians dressed in silks is based on a misreading of Hale's Life of Christopher Columbus, which you cite. Columbus saw Indians with "worked [i.e., decorated] handkerchiefs on their heads. At a little distance it seemed as if these were made of silk...." On closer examination, they turned out to be something else, probably plant fiber. -Rob C (Alarob)

First hand accounts are always the most accurate and trusted. Interpretation by others are more questionable.- Sllee19

I do not understand what "first hand account" you are referring to. I also remind you of WP:RS and WP:OR. If your conclusions about the medallion are novel, they should be published elsewhere before appearing in Wikipedia, per WP:RS -Rob C (Alarob)

First account of Columbus's observation can be interpreted in any way by a second or third person. Let's stay with the original. - Sllee19

Chicken Bones In Chile

The recent dating of chicken bones in Chile is a new evidence that worth further study. They were dated the same period of time as Zheng He's explorations. There is no prior record of chicken in America. If they were deposited by the Polynesians, they would have to travel against a strong current and somehow survived a 6000-mile journey with the chicken. Zheng He's fleet is known to carry chicken, sheep and dogs for food. If they came sailing east to west from Chile to Samoa, they would be with the current and wind. Chinese boat people today still raise chicken on their boats. The dating of these chicken bones fall within the timing of Zheng He's trips is of interests for further investigation. - Sllee19

The chicken bones in Chile are at least on the shore of the more plausible ocean; however, even if this evidence proves convincing, there are numerous ocean-going cultures somewhat closer than China that could have introduced the chickens, despite your denial. (See Mau Piailug, for example.) -Rob C (Alarob)

The chicken bone remains an equivocal issue that will be settled with further research. I am raising questions rather than providing answers.- Sllee19

OK, I share your interest, but Wikipedia is not an appropriate place to raise such questions. (This is not my decision; it is the encyclopedia's policy: WP:NOT) -Rob C (Alarob)

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5