Talk:Zi Yue (band)

子曰

The purpose of me creating this article with (band) was to help the reader. As the article says the band has also used the English name You.Me.It. though is better known as "Zi yue" Confucius says. looking at Google Books "Ziyue" is more likely to refer to Confucius or the title character Zhao Ziyue of Lao She's 1926 novel. So please leave (band) alone, thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Ignored, what did I expect. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I did a search of "Ziyue" on WP. This was the only topic with that name. Dohn joe (talk) 23:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Why are you even here, what is your interest in this article? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Trying to improve WP, just like any other article I edit. Dohn joe (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. TheJack15 (talk) 11:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

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Ziyue (band) → Ziyue – The basename already redirects here. Per WP guidelines and practice, a basename does not redirect to a disambiguated name unless it is a member of a group of articles which are always disambiguated (U.S. placenames, UK constituencies, etc.). The only other notable topic that includes this name is Sun Ziyue, which is a WP:partial title match. Dohn joe (talk) 16:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC) Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

For the record the basename "already redirects here" only because of an undicussed move pushing the band over what would previously have given search results with various results. For the time being I have redirected it to the Analects since it might as well go there rather than anywhere else. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:49, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

And I reverted. Let's wait until this RM closes before moving titles, please. Dohn joe (talk) 18:50, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You mean redirecting. But you're arguing from a position forced by undiscussed move of the band over the search result, and now the argument in your RM is → because there was an undiscussed move creating a redirect to (band) → and because when the undiscussed move was reverted a redirect was created → therefore automatic creation of the redirect justifies the undiscussed move and → it must be moved again. If you want to restore the situation before then put a G6 on it and let it be as it was Ziyue, and not redirect anywhere, so entering it brings up search results for all topics, which was how it was. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as with the other RMs initiated by this User, the User doesn't understand the difference between a "topic" and a "title". A title is the title of an article, a topic is something covered within an article. WP:DISAMBIGUATION and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC both refer to "topic" not "title". So the question is not what titles en.wp has, but what topics en.wp has. The one on zh.wp is "The zǐyuè (子月) is the period starting with Dàxuě (大雪), i.e. the solar term before the winter solstice." so Ziyue (calendar) naturally would be a redirect to that topic (not title) in the Sexagenary cycle article. Apart from this one topic of course there are also names, Ziyue, but the only Ziyue who could be referred to without the surname would be Zhao Ziyue the protagonist of the novel of the same name by Lao She, and likewise should redirects to Lao She. So, the first question here is how many non-partial matches does en.wp have? And the answer comparing with Google Books is "2, at a pinch 3" Ziyue (calendar) the most common, Ziyue (band) the second most common, third most common Ziyue (without his surname Zhao) very occasionally for the title character of the novel Zhao Ziyue by Lao She. Unlike the novel's hero the tennis star is never ever in Google Books referred to as "Ziyue" without "Sun". So, next question, how many hits in Google Books do these two main topics get? That's a question which should be in the RM proposal above, and isn't. Why? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

  Please see this WP search for all uses of "Ziyue" across WP. There are 49. 31 of them are for Sun Ziyue. The other ones do not even have redirects (unless you have created some while I'm typing this). That means they are not "topics". One passing mention in an article does not make it a "topic". I have no issue with taking non-article topics into account for primarytopic purposes - but in this case, there are none. Dohn joe (talk) 16:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

How is that relevant? Please focus on topic as described by the guidelines and support your case among these topics with Google Book search results to demonstrate one topic is the absolute majority of all topics. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Guideline: WP:DISAMBIGUATION. Which says: "[A term is ambiguous] most often when it refers to more than one subject covered by Wikipedia". If it's not covered by Wikipedia, it doesn't count. The search I provided shows that there is no other topic covered by Wikipedia besides this one. There are partial title matches, and one passing reference to a month in one article. That is not coverage. Please review the guideline. Dohn joe (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Well that's nonsense isn't it. The Ziyue (calendar) is clearly covered in the article on Sexagenary cycle and what's more it was already covered as a topic before I created this article on the Chinese rock band. So bolding your text doesn't make Ziyue (calendar) any more or less covered. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Calidum T|C 16:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello User:Calidum could you please click on Google Books search results and comment? thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• User:BrownHairedGirl thanks for relisting, Fyi the undiscussed move reverted above required creation of Ziyue (disambiguation) rather than at the baseline. Can closer please move the dab over the baseline. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 13 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Zi Yue (band). Clear consensus that "Zi Yue" is more common in reliable sources than the current title. I'm not touching the dab issue, that can be taken to another RM if absolutely necessary. Jenks24 (talk) 12:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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Ziyue (band) → ? – Totally unrelated to the move above, but to the name of the page itself. As the article is likely to never grow more than the present, and if it is to be kept, the current sources name the band through multiple names: "Ziyue", "Zi Yue", "Yaoshi Ziyue", "Yaoshi-Ziyue", "You.Me.It.". If this was a numeric contest, the name "Zi Yue" is the most constant. Even the page is written using "Zi Yue": "Zi Yue (子曰乐队)" and "The name Zi yue...". Clearly the current name is not the most common, or even the most appropiate. Because of this I propose to move it to either:

• Ziyue (band) (current)
• Zi Yue (band)
• Yaoshi Ziyue
• Yaoshi-Ziyue
• You.Me.It. (or You Me It)

As the RM requester, I propose to move it, if anywere, to Zi Yue (band) because it is the most constant. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 03:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)--Relisted. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose This is the simplest and most consistent with the other Ziyue. I wrote the page using Zi Yue because it's common to be more technically correct in copy rather than titles, see WP:CRITERIA Also there's really very little in it and a redirect Zi Yue (band) will cover it. The other names aren't in the running. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:22, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry to inform you that "simplest and most consistent with the other Ziyue" is not in itself a policy in Wikipedia--in that sense we should rename (Gorillaz to Gorillas (virtual band) because it is consistent with all other Gorilla topics. Ignoring the fact you are assuming all English speakers already "recognize" this obscure band, and they do it by its current title, you are saying that CRITERIA supports the current title. CRITERIA supports me more in fact. Zi Yue is mentioned more times in the present sources, and CRITERIA itself begins with: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." Of course it continues with "There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains." All 5 considerations are based in popular topics that experts and non-experts tend to search the most, like Lady Gaga (not S. Germanotta), Eastman Kodak (not Kodak, but dubious) or United Kingdom (not its full name). For this band, it would be difficult to say it is recognizible for experts and non-experts, because it is a barely-notable band, so the only people that can be familiar with it are those who are familiar with Chinese rock bands from the 1990s. Unless you find more sources calling it Ziyue, the current title is out of policy. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 04:29, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Nope. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:48, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support move to plain Zi Yue. The sources in the article, and the sources in Google Books, agree that "Zi Yue" is the common name of the band in English-language reliable sources. And of course we try to match the title to the article text, especially in the lead, as per MOS:LEAD: "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence." Zi Yue is currently a redlink, so there is no reason not to move there, as opposed to Zi Yue (band), which would be the second best option. Note that all the topics at Ziyue use "Ziyue", not "Zi Yue", as found here. Dohn joe (talk) 16:35, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely not Dohn joe you have no interest in China or bands as far as I can see yet you've been agitating to have (band) removed from this article since I created it. What for? And you here again are trying to remove (band) despite an RM just going against you. This is trolling and disruptive. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support Zi Yue, if that's what the band is really called. That is the form used in all of the cited sources, at least. Zi Yue is currently a red link, suggesting that (band) isn't necessary.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.