Talk:Zonians

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The dates used in this article are wrong.

The Panama Canal Zone was abolished in 1979 (two years after the signing of the 1977 Panama Canal Treaties).

For the next 20 years (1979-1999), the territories of the former Canal Zone became officialy known as "Reverted Areas of the Panama Canal".

So, the official dates of the Panama Canal Zone would be 1903-1979.

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The changeover was gradual, however, and while the Panama Canal Zone proper shrank in size - geographically and in terms of resources - every year, the Zone itself continued to exist as a legal entity until the time of the final handover ceremony in 1999.

I have reverted the section.

Mark Shaw 16:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in The Canal Zone and graduated from High School in 1982 The day they gave the Canal Away OCT 1ST 1979 Everyone Cried because someone gave our Home away. 173.227.214.200 (talk) 21:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Chagres Legend

There is, unfortunately, not a whole lot out there in terms of documentation of Zonian culture and traditions. The Chagres Legend, however, apparently goes back to West Indian or even Spanish-colonial times, so there really ought to be something out there on it.

I'm searching for this, and will provide the cite when I find it. In the meantime, I would request that people (particularly non-Zonians) stop removing the passage. Mark Shaw 11:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the information, because it has not been referenced for about three months now. Information that is not verified in the article— thus not having a valid source— needs to be sourced within a timely manner, or it should be removed. We cannot have non-Zonians, such as myself, looking at an article and question its accuracy. I am not discrediting the legend, but it needs to be verified or removed. There needs to be a valid source for this legend, or there is justification in its removal from the article. —№tǒŖïøŭş 4lĭfė ♫♪

I added a reference for the Chagres legend. It's a weak reference, in that it only mentions the idea in passing, but it at least does that. As I said there's not a whole lot out there on us.

If I can find something better I'll update it. Mark Shaw 22:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

a person who considers the Panama Canal Zone his or her true home?

What evidence to we have that this is the case for the people noted, as opposed to simply having been born in the Zone? SixFourThree (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

This is how Zonians see it: on the one hand, one need not actually be native-born to be considered a Zonian; on the other, someone who simply lived in the Canal Zone for a time is not necessarily a Zonian. For example, I have no idea what John McCain considers "home," so he may not actually be a Zonian under this definition. On the other hand, someone who moved to the Zone - in childhood or even adulthood - could certainly be a Zonian, depending on how s/he feels about it. So perhaps the title of the "Notable Zonians" section should be changed to "Notable persons born in the Canal Zone" and moved to Panama Canal Zone. Mark Shaw (talk) 20:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd be all for that, but do we really have a source that Zonians consider the Zone their true home? I didn't see one at the Society link, and the other reference uses the term for people born in the Zone who don't seem to feel that way at all:

But the social context here is of a post-treaty nature. These are not guys who grew up in fear of the other side of the street, who fled in something approaching terror and to this day grumble about being stabbed in the back by Jimmy Carter. These are young men who came of age during a time of a dissolving colonial boundary, in a social milieu very different from the old Zonian society from when this reporter was a kid. The Zonians who left with plans never to return appreciate Shorty & Slim for the nostalgic memories, but those who visit as much as they can and intend to return as soon as possible tend to appreciate them more in the present tense. They may be a nostalgia band at the CZ reunions, but they’re one of the expressions of Panama’s English-language culture for those of us who live it.

It speaks of a group of "Zonians" who may feel nostalgia but no more than that. I think we need to source the first sentence before we figure out to do with the list. SixFourThree (talk) 17:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

I'll try to find a better source for this when I can. The passage you're quoting there is from a source I provided to back up the claim about Chagres River water at someone else's insistence and really doesn't speak to the true nature of what a Zonian is. Mark Shaw (talk) 17:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Should we change the first sentence to read something like A Zonian is a person associated with the Panama Canal Zone, a political entity viable between 1903 and the absorption of the Canal Zone into the Republic of Panama between 1980 and 2000, either by birth or by residence.? It seems to me that, so long as we keep the "true home" bit, we're reading the minds and feelings of the people listed. Especially when at least one source uses "Zonian" to refer to former residents with no more than nostalgic ties to the Zone. SixFourThree (talk) 18:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

My request is that we not do anything with it right away. I just (this morning) got around to asking for a source on this from a mailing list of Zonians I belong to, and it's quite likely that something better will be provided. Also, simple association with the CZ doesn't qualify one as a Zonian, as explained above. I'll either update the page or this talk page before the weekend. Mark Shaw (talk) 19:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

That seems fair - no need to be hasty. If you can provide a reliable source that the term refers exclusively to those "true homers", then no problem (have to admit that the link already provided says the opposite, though). In any case, what should we do about the list of people? SixFourThree (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

Proposed change: "A Zonian is a person associated with the Panama Canal Zone, a political entity (etc)." This is terribly generic, but despite a great deal of discussion with other Zonians I can find no citeable reference. The other change I propose is to move the list of "notable Zonians" to Panama Canal Zone and change the title to "Notable persons born in the Panama Canal Zone". Mark Shaw (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that sounds like a good idea, all around. SixFourThree (talk) 18:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

I have decided against the second change, since the new definition covers these individuals. Mark Shaw (talk) 02:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

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