Talk:Zvhil (Hasidic dynasty)

Controversy

"However the Zhviller Rebbe of Boston is not well respected in Haredi circles." why??? Bresolver 01:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

A clarification. The top paragraph was an unsigned comment left by someone other than me. I wouldn't have said that the Zhviller isn't frum, for example. I didn't call him a Conservative Rabbi. Look at the history, and you'll see that that comment was not me. I'm not interested in debating on behalf of whoever wrote that comment, because its a strange comment. I stand by what I wrote. I'll also note that the offending term in the article was erased, and that all of this is now a moot point.Meshulam 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

He prints a newspaper in Boston that does not adhere to Charedi standards of Tznius for a newspaper. I think he was originally a Conservative Rabbi who's grandfather was the Zhvil-Mezbuz rebbe of Boston, who did not appoint a successor. When he realized that he had Rebbishe yichus he set up a Rebbeviste, but is not known to be a frum yid

The paper in Boston (a popular paper among Frum Yidden in Boston) is a Zionist paper. Its not luke-warm about Zionism like Belz. Its literally Zionist. The guy wears the whole robe and whatnot, but he's hardly a Rebbe: Used to be a Rabbi in a Conservatve shul He wasn't actually a conservative clergyman. He was a modern orthodox musmach who presided over a Conservative shul. (I heard a story that during his "transformation," while he was still married to his first wife whose father owned Viacom, he spent one Shabbos drosho denouncing the evils of television... while his father in law was in the audience. Talk about knowing your audience). I heard him speak once. He justified the holocaust by saying "We don't know how G-d does things. Its like when a doctor tries to make us eat a medicine that tastes bad, its for our own good even though we don't like it" (so far, pretty standard, and then all of the sudden...) "Like how before the holocaust, there was no way we were going to get a state. But now, we have a Jewish state! There are more Yeshivos than ever!" I say there for a few minutes after he said that saying "Did he just say what I think he said?" I looked around the room to see if everyone else had heard. They had! Everyone had a face like they had just tasted something that had spoiled or something. Anyway, the point is that he's a little goofy. --Meshulam 05:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

but he wears a bekishe and a coat, etc?

Yes, but a bekeshe and a coat does not a Rebbe make :-) --Meshulam 18:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Errr Meshulam: You are not The Ribbono Shel Olam and it is not for you to decide who is or who is not a Rebbe, or who does or does not qualify for the title of Rebbe. It is true that Rabbi Korff has changed, no-one, especially not him, denies it, and everyone including a Rebbe can be a Baal teshuva (isn't that what the Baal Shem Tov taught and wanted by the way, and isn't that what Abaraham and Sarah did?) And since when is being "goofy" a strike against being a Rebbe? Are all Rebbes required to be "cool" - what don't I get? Give the guy a break, he's as good as or bettter than many of the other hundreds of wannabe Rebbes out there. IZAK 13:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

How does the Shomer Emunim Rebbe shlit"a feel about his zionist son-in-law?

First of all, please identify yourself. Second of all, I don't think he's Zionist at all and funny how articles in The Jewish Press criticizing him for being anti-Zionist. Neither is true. Besides, what do you mean by Zionist -- the Lubavitcher Rebbe? anybody who isn't Satmar? I don't know much about the Shomer Emunim Rebbe, but from what I hear he may not be zionist but he's not extreme anti either. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I asked one of the shomer emunim rebbe's chassidim in boro park, and he told me that his daughter eloped with Grand Rabbi Dr. Korpf PhD against her father's wishes. she stopped wearing the levush of Yerushalayim that she was raised with and now dresses in the style of American haredim (sheitel instead of shpitzel, thinner stockings). Since then they may have made peace, but their relationship is rather lukewarm. The Shomer Emunim Rebbe, shlit"a, follows his father's anti-zionist stance officially, however he is said to be a bit more moderate than his father was. J:J

Lo hoyo vlo nivro -- I heard from one of the Shomrei Emunim rebbe's sons that there was a very big chusonoh (the Rebbe wasn't there, it was in America, but the Rebbetzin was there, the Zvil-Sanzer from Union Siti was mesader kedushin, the Somber was there, Poltischaner, and others). I saw the daughter and she dresses America haredi and doesnt wear the levush except when she visits family in Meioh Shurim. --09:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)~

Jerusalem

can anyone post a picture of the zhviller rebbe of jerusalem?

Bresolver, with all due respect, if you do not know the facts, you should not pretend to know, or spread false information. It is unbecoming and unethical.

This certainly should not be used as a forum for your own opinion as to how someone is regarded in frum circles - which is not correct, by the way. Yes, he is a controversial figure, for sure. But his father in law is the Shomer Emunah Rebbe; I have personally seen several Rebbes and their emissaries from Brooklyn, Yerushalayim, and Canada visting and celebrating with him in his beis medrash. I sat with the Tosher Rebbe at Rabbi Korff's Shabbos table. These are leaders of "haredi circles," and they showed him great respect.

Meshulum has the background essentially correct, but he's not a "modern orthodox musmach" - he's a musmach of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin, as well as Yeshivas Eretz Yisroel, and Yeshivas Beis Mordechai (Zvhil) of Jerusalem.

To say he is "not a frum yid" is slanderous and just plain wrong. He is a Dayan of Boston’s Beis Din and Vaad HaRabbonim. Yes, he was publisher of a secular jewish newspaper, the leading Jewish paper in New England, since sold to a British group. Does that make one not frum?

CLEARING IT ALL UP -- Let's Get It Straight

OK -- I am a chassidishe yid from birth, a Chernobler einikel and a distant relative of the Zvhil-Mezbuz Rebbe, and I happen to have known the Rebbe and his family since he was little. I would like to respectfully request that Meshulam's comments above be deleted, with his consent, as loshon horo which is very misleading and a complete misunderstanding of the man.

The fact is, Rabbi Korff was raised from birth to be Rebbe, something which many in the family (including Chernobler cousins, like myself)were aware of, and something that was noted in a Chumash his grandfather gave to him at birth. I heard from people at Chaim Berlin that even when he was brought to Chaim Berlin to learn there as a teenager, Rav Hutner stood up to welcome him, and Rav Aaron Schechter, the present Rosh Yeshiva, made a point of telling others that he was a Baal Shem's einikel. So what's this "when he realized he had Rebbishe yichus" business?

None of the previous Rebbe's three sons felt worthy of succeeding their father, but each of them, and the previous Rebbe, wanted the Rebbe to be the successor and worked for that purpose. He was encouraged to be memalei mekomo of his grandfather by people like the Tolne Rebbe, the Skverer Rebbes, the Foltischaner, the Skolyer, and many others in the family. It took a lot of courage and a lot of sacrifice for the Rebbe to accept and take that step.

The reason for the controversy is because you can't put him in a standard mold -- he is unique, and does not hesitate to speak his mind even if it is unpopular or not the standard 'party line,' so long as he feels it is 'emes.' He is a brilliant man, with a deep understanding and insight of Yiddishkeit, halochoh, chassidus, etc., etc., but along with that he has an extensive secular education (in law and other subjects) from top ivy league colleges and universities, something really unique among Rebbes, unique in the charedi world in general, and something that in and of itself is enough to have some closed-minded insular people try to write him off as not mainstream. But then neither was the Baal Shem Tov.

He was always frum, and deeply committed, and always fearless and outspoken. He was trained by his family and encouraged by his chassidic roots, going back to the Baal Shem Tov, to do outreach long before it was popular. Criticize him for taking over Conservative synagogues, which he did twice, but one of those, the first one, he successfully switched to Orthodox, although he was not as successful with the second one. He was also pressured by the Federation to take over the Jewish newspaper in Boston, which he used successfully for many years to spread true Yiddishkeit hidden in the pages. He has the courage to go out from his dalet amos and deal with the real world and try to spread chassidus in the tradition of his ancestors.

I also remember that holocaust incident that Meshulam refers to, although I wasn't there I heard the Rebbe talk about it when he visited the Boro Park -- the facts are that the Rebbe quoted traditional Talmudic sources which state "mevorchim al hora k'shem she'mevorchim al hatov", we must bless HaShem for the bad the same way we bless for the good. He explained that we don't always know what tzadikim will come from reshoim, and we don't always know what good will come from the bad . . . but it does. So, what's "goofy" about that?

He has the ability to shake things up, to force people to think. Honest, thinking, people realize his brilliance and his different way of thinking (take a look at his sefer, Meshivas Nefesh Yitzchok). Others try to marginalize him, just like they did with the Baal Shem Tov and others throughout history. I heard a few months ago that the Holocaust Museum from Washington threw a big dinner in Boston, with all the big-wigs, politicians, coming, but it was going to be treife. The Rebbe took on the whole establishment and single-handedly got them to change it to kosher at the last minute, a week before the dinner.

The fact is that all of the other Rebbes, both here and in Eretz Yisroel, not only accept him but have great respect for him. I was actually present in New Square when Rabbi Korff came to visit his cousin, the Skeverer Rebbe, and I saw the Skeverer Rebbe actually stand up for him when he came into the room. I was also at the bris for one of his sons in Boro Park -- the Chernobler Rebbe was Sandek, the Dejer Rebbe was the moel, and the Rebbes of Rachmistrivke, Foltischan, Skolye, Yoka, Skver (Boro Park), Samber, and many other Rebbes and Rabbonim (including I think Rabbi Yehuda Parnes, Rosh Yeshiva at Touro College) all were there.

I also have heard from others that the Zvhiller Rebbe in Jerusalem puts out a special chair at his side when the Rebbe visits there, that the Boyaner Rebbe, another cousin, goes to visit him when he is in Jerusalem, that the Klausenberger Rebbe once sent a special car to pick him up and take him to Netanya to visit the hospital there, etc., etc.

So let's get it straight -- the Baal Shem Tov didn't come out of any standard mold either, but it didn't make him "goofy". Thank G-d for true leaders like this Rebbe.

--ChosidFrumBirth 12:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll only point out that you haven't actually denied any of the factual matters I have referred to. You seem to take issue only with my language. I apologize if you find my language flippant, but my comments stand. "Loshon Haro" is not a valid reason for deleting comments on wikipedia. I have not heard of any other Rebbeim accepting him, but I hve no evidence that they don't. I don't think I discussed that above, and it isn't relevant to my comments. With respect to the holocaust refrences, I was not referring to any Boro Park incident. I was in the Zhviller's native Boston when I heard those remarks, and they were as I described them above: He compared the Holocaust to medicine, and essentially said that just like medicine tastes bad, and we don't understand why its good for us, so too the Holocaust... and then he went on to talk about how the Zionist state is a product of the Holocaust. This is only my opinion, but that statement is goofy. It is objectively different from the statements we are used to hearing from Chassidic Rebbeim, like the Satmar Rov, for example. Now, I'm not going to go point by point and respond to your stream of consciousness. Unless it has to do with the article, I don't want to waste my time. I will say this, however: Despite your repeated comparisons between the Zhviller and the Besht, the Besht was never the Rabbi of a Conserative congregation (something that is assur regardless of the intentions). That kind of silly comparison has no end. Bobo the clown is not mainstream either. That doesn't make him comparable to the Besht. --Meshulam 22:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if I offended you. I only meant to clear up some of the facts.

First, there were no Conservative congregations in the Baal Shem Tov's times, but he certainly did go into similar towns, villages, communities, and other places and the same sort of situations where Jews did not follow halachah, and he didn't spout the standard 'party line' of the halachic establishment of the time, and he was ostracized for that. (And whether or not it was assur, then or now, is a judgment call that is not found in the seforim and which I assume neither one of us should judge.) That was the only comparison I wished to make.

Second, just because his approach (although not the basic views) is different or creative and not always what we are used to hearing from a Hassidic Rebbe doesn't make him "goofy" -- we heard very different things from the Satmar Rov than we did from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, but neither one is goofy. Besides, I frankly find that most Rebbes, and many Chareidi rebbeim, play it safe and stick to the "mainstream", and therefore may not be as effective in the freier community the way the Zvhiller Rebbe has access.

I agree that loshon hora is not a valid reason for deleting comments on Wikipedia, and I apologize for my "stream of consciousness" but I was trying to share what I knew in order to correct some facts which is the only reason I got into this in the first place.

For example, you said "I think he was originally a Conservative Rabbi", and then you say "he was a modern orthodox musmach", and hold "he's hardly a Rebbe" -- none are true. Chaim Berlin is not "Conservative", and smicha from the Zvhiller Yeshiva in Yerushalayim from the late Zvhiller Rebbe there is not "modern orthodox." Whether or not you would want him as your Rebbe doesn't make him hardly a Rebbe. For that matter, Satmar chasidim didn't consider the Lubavticher Rebbe a Rebbe, and vice versa. But the fact is he has impeccable lineage.

You say "When he realized he had rebbeshe yichus he set up a rebbestrive", but certainly if he studied at the Zvhiller Yeshiva in Yerushalayim as a bochur with his cousins he must have known he had yichus at least twenty years before he became Rebbe.

You say "he's not known to be a frum yid." That's outrageous and grossly incorrect. Known by whom? I can guarantee "Facts" like that shouldn't appear on mere opinion because anyone with an agenda or an ax to grind can belittle anyone and give the wrong impression. Misnagdim told the Vilner Gaon that the Baal Shem Tov didn't keep tisha bAv and they had eyewitnesses that he ate on tisha bAv. They didn't tell him that tisha bAv was on shabbos the year they saw that.

Lastly, he's not the first Rov to say that good things came out of the holocaust, and he's not the first Rebbe to hold that there are still some good things about having a state of Israel, even though he doesn't approve zionism -- after all, we're not neturei karta.

I'm really sorry for the length, and I don't mean to burden you, but I did think it was important to clear up some of the basic facts and correct a misimpression. The bottom line is that none of this really relates to the article, as you point out, but it does relate to the first comments on this discussion page, which were basically just opinion and rumor and needed to be balanced with the facts. Thank you for the opportunity, and I hope you take all of this in the spirit in the emisdike spirit which it is meant. (PS -- thought just occured to me -- maybe you should go see the Zvhiller and express your thoughts to him -- both of you might benefit.)--ChosidFrumBirth 10:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

A clarification. The top paragraph was an unsigned comment left by someone other than me. I wouldn't have said that the Zhviller isn't frum, for example. I didn't call him a Conservative Rabbi. Look at the history, and you'll see that that comment was not me. I'm not interested in debating on behalf of whoever wrote that comment, because its a strange comment. I stand by what I wrote. I'll also note that the offending term in the article was erased, and that all of this is now a moot point.

Once again, I'm not going point by point. But I feel compelled to point out that some ofyour arguments are just logical fallacies. The comparisons you make cloud the issue, rather than shed light on it. Bobo the clown did not say "what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said." He also does not follow the mainstream party line. I don't think that automatically makes him comparable to the Besht. Being Rabbi at a Conservative shul isn't just "out of the mainstream," or "not what you would expect from a Rebbe." Its goofy. --Meshulam 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the clarification -- it really was the unsigned comment that set me off because it's so off base and I didn't think that such ungrounded incorrect opinions should be left on a public website.

Regarding my comparisons, you're obviously right that it's not exact, and you're obviously correct that the Zviller is not your usual standard 'cookie-cutter' Rebbe (some see that as a positive, others as a negative). But, and this was the only reason for the comparison, the Baal Shem Tov was also viewed as goofy in his time. Bobo the clown doesn't have smicha and yichus. Once we get beyond certain credentials Rebbes should be discussed based upon whether or not we agree with their views or approach, not whether or not they are Rebbes. I think we've about exhausted the subject. Thank you for your patience. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• I am re-posting what I wrote above. I cannot fathom why User:Meshulam is intent on not giving Rabbi Korff his "day in court" and a fair hearing. I have seen with my own eyes how Rabbi Korff has been honored by some very important Haredi rabbis and rosh yeshivas, so I do not pass judgement on him. So what about the way he speaks. And since when are Haredim immune from the yetzer hara when there are plenty of scandals involving Haredim - with or without it being in the Haredi newspapers. Rabbi Korff is unusual but his yichus is there and inspite of his unusual past he does seem to have claimed his rightful place in the pantheon of modern Rebbes, albeit minor ones. By the way, it's not as if Boston is awash with Hasidic Rebbes, so proportionately Rabbi Korff is significant in that part of the world of Judaism: IZAK 13:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

  Errr Meshulam: You are not The Ribbono Shel Olam and it is not for you to decide who is or who is not a Rebbe, or who does or does not qualify for the title of Rebbe. It is true that Rabbi Korff has changed, no-one, especially not him, denies it, and everyone including a Rebbe can be a Baal teshuva (isn't that what the Baal Shem Tov taught and wanted by the way, and isn't that what Abaraham and Sarah did?) And since when is being "goofy" a strike against being a Rebbe? Are all Rebbes required to be "cool" - what don't I get? Give the guy a break, he's as good as or bettter than many of the other hundreds of wannabe Rebbes out there. IZAK 13:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of a day in court, I feel like I need to respond to the numerous diatribes against me here. Above, I was responding to a question based on the article. The article used to read that the Zhviller Rebbe of Boston was not respected in Hareidi circles. Obviously, this is blatant POV, and was rightly deleted. Regardless, someone asked why that statement was there. After someone else offered what I believed to be a pretty ridiculous response, I decided to offer something more substantive. The fact is that the Zhviller is strange. That might be a good thing, as Chosid and Izak are both claiming. But it is essentially unrefuted. I have merely pointed out some of his oddities. Izak says that I am trying to deny him his day in court (this despite the fact that he now has 3 articles essentially dedicated to him). Nothing could be further from the truth: A court is supposed to determine the truth based on the evidence. I am merely trying to get the truth out there. The offensive thing is not my desire to reveal the truth about R' Korff (for better or for worse). The offensive thing is that merely for pointing out facts, I have been accused of thinking that I am The Ribbono Shel Olam, of having it in for R' Korff, of trying to deny him his "day in court." Etc. --Meshulam 22:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect to Meshulam, may I go one step further out on a limb here -- another major admirable difference between him and "the other hundreds of wannabe Rebbes out there" as IZAK puts it is that a lot of them do it for kovod or parnossoh or because they have no choice. Rabbi Korff had both, had plenty of other options, alternatives, and worldly luxuries, and agreed purely lishmoh and at great personal and financial sacrifice to continue the tradition of his ancestors by accepting the position of Rebbe at the strong urging of his family and other relatives like the late Talner Rebbe of Boston and other Rebbes whom I've been in touch with recently as I reconnect with my own chassidish heritage. That "difference" is something to be admired not condemned. As I posted on the Medzibozh proposed deletion page, the Rebbe's stature is recognized and acknowledged by ALL the other Rebbes that I know of, including the Boyaner, Zviller, Skverer, Chernobyler, Foltichaner, Skolyer, etc., etc. who are very deferential and have great respect for Rabbi Korff, and are obviously in a much better position than Meshulam to know. Meshulam's comments are insulting and show a bias and personal opinion. I don't know what happened between him and the Rebbe, or what he has against him, but this is just not acceptable and not a credit to wikipedia. I don't want to be critical of Meshulam, and he is entitled to his opinion, but maybe someone can make sholom and fix whatever it is. --ChosidFrumBirth 20:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for voicing your disagreements in such a respectful fashion. It is a pleasant contrast to some other comments on this page. I can appreciate your sentiment about R' Korff's desire to become Rebbe. As I have said, I don't think it is necessary to debate the issue here where it does not touch on the article. I can appreciate your point, and I have no opinion about it. With respect to the deletion (which is a moot point), I didn't question that he was a Rebbe or even well respected. I questioned the necessity of another article about the man. --Meshulam 22:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You're very welcome, and thank you for responding in kind. Concerning the "three" articles, only one is about the man, while the other two are about the Zvil and Mezbuz Hasidic dynasties which simply include him briefly by listing him as part of those dynasties (is he also listed as a son-in-law in the Shomrei Emunim Rebbe's page? -- I'll have to check). The man is complex. Good thing it's only two dynasties -- with his extensive yichus he could be included in half a dozen others as well :) --ChosidFrumBirth 22:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Zhvil (spelling)

Why is this article spelt Zhvil when the spelling is really Zvhil? It should be changed Redaktor 20:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No idea -- I agree it should be changed (what happens to links to it though?) --ChosidFrumBirth 14:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The spelling Zvhill is also attested by the Yizkor book. In Hebrew/Yiddish it is זוועהיל (h after the v). Since no-one has objected I shall move the article (and fix links if necessary).--Redaktor 15:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty) at Mediation Cabal

A long-simmering editorial dispute between Klezmer (talk · contribs) and ChosidFrumBirth (talk · contribs) over how to deal with information about certain Hasidic topics has reached the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal. Please see and provide any helpful input at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-29 Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty). Thank you, IZAK 16:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Lineage/Maggid of Zlotchiv

Something seems way off with this sentence:

Rabbi Yechiel Michel, the Maggid of Zlotshev (d. 1786), ... Son-in-law of Rabbi Mordechai Twersky, the Maggid of Chernobyl

The maggid of Zlotchiv was a disciple of the Baal Shem Tov, and, according to some, one of his succesors. Reb Nachum of Chernobyl was younger than both the Besht and the maggid of Mezritch, and a disciple of the latter. I don't have sources at hand for authoritative dates of birth, etc. but it seems pretty far out for R' Mechel to have been R' Nachum's son R' Mordechai's son-in-law. Anyone have a source for this? --Kotzker 17:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed the connection to Chernobyl, since I believe it is wrong. May have been confused with the R' Motl Chernobyler's actual son-in-law, R' Yechiel Mechel Drubitcher, son of R' Yosef of Yampol, son of R' Mechel Zlotshever. --Kotzker 20:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Last rebbe to live in Zvhil

The article states that "The last rebbe to reside in Zvhil was Grand Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel."

Didn't Reb Gedalyo Moshe (the son of Reb Shlomke) stay in Zvhil longer than him? Could someone check this out? --Redaktor (talk) 13:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - the artcle is rite - Gidalyo Moishe went to Siberia, and then to Eretz Israel. Oh and the Zvilr Rebeh in Boston wasn't son-in-law of Yechile Michil, that was his grandfather. --93.173.199.85 (talk) 06:29, 26 June 2009 (UTC)