Talk:Zwei Gesänge, Op. 1 (Schoenberg)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

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Schönberg, 1905 portrait

• ... that the two songs of Op. 1 by Arnold Schönberg (pictured), "Abschied" (Farewell) and "Dank" (Thanks), were first performed in Vienna in 1900, with Zemlinsky at the piano, to a hostile reaction of the audience? Source: Gerlach
  • Reviewed: Alexandru Talex
  • Comment: We are in a Schönberg year. I couldn't believe his Op. 1 (not 12-tone yet, rather expressionist but no room for that in a hook) had no article. Planning to write more about text and music but busy the next few days. I believe we should picture him this year ;)

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2107 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC).

• Great work as always on these pieces. QPQ, article eligibility, source, and general presentation checks out. The hook seems like it could be condensed just a tad to ease readability; maybe something along the lines of "ALT1 ... the first public performance of two songs from Arnold Schoenberg's (pictured) Op. 1 was met with hostile reactions from the audience?" The picture is pretty nice! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you fort the review! Yes, it could be condensed, but what would be left had much in common with other pieces, and I find the position of pictured awkward. We should also not say that in Wikipedia voice when it was the wording of one critic, also the ridicule in the other's wording was perhaps a bit more unique. "two songs from" is correct but misleading, because the opus is exactly these two songs. Please give me some more days to write about text and music, both loaded with emotion which the titles suggest a bit, I think. (But Schönberg knew why he didn't call them simply lieder (songs) but - like Brahms sometimes - Gesänge, a more sophisticate form for which English has no word, or has it? Then we could use that.) - You could also listen. I did, see the Liviu Holender hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  Zemlinsky was not only the pianist, but Schönberg's teacher, the dedicatee of the songs, and to become his brother in law. Some will associate that with the name. He is also one of the composers whose music was banned by the Nazis, see the Holender hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree with Generalissima here. The original hook has too much detail and is thus too dense. The alternative wording proposed is direct to the point and makes the point of the hook clearer. Readers might get lost with the first hook, the second hook is much more understandable. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

While all this is true and not new: we celebrate 150 years of Schönberg and his music, and it's nothing new and no surprise that people react to it with hostility. I was surprised that his first works were songs. I was surprised that they were recorded by four of the greatest names singing and playing (but you may not know them so I dropped the idea of saying that). I was surprised to learn how close Zemlinsky was to him, not just teacher but friend and later family. - Did you listen? - The music of these two composers were banned by the Nazis, - we could do a bit more positive for it than saying the reaction was hostility, no? - On 29 May The Rite of Spring was premiered to an almost riot, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

As a compromise, can't we just go with Generalissima's wording? It basically says the same thing as the original hook except more concisely, and if the point is to promote Schoenberg, they still do it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

MONTENSEM is in the process of expanding. We'll see what material we'll get. This is a substantial composition, and just to say that the ignorant public didn't like it seems too little, on top of too unspecific.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:44, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

ALT2: ... that Alma Mahler described the two songs of Op. 1 by Schönberg (pictured) as "lavished with incredible pomp but without any concession to the ear that is accustomed to gentle melodies"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

• I still think Generalissima's wording is the more interesting option here compared to the quote so let's just go with that. I've taken the liberty of labeling that proposal as ALT1, and relabeling the new ALT1 as ALT2. I've verified ALT1 in the source and it's the one most likely to get readers to click on the article. The rest of the review is per Generalissima. With that said, this is without prejudice towards whatever new hooks come out of the expansion, and this does not preclude approval of said hooks depending on how they turn out. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  We talk about a key composer's Opus one, a piece of significance. Can you - anybody - please explain to me why we would find a fact interesting that this piece shares with hundreds of other compositions?? Instead of saying something that is unique to this piece? - "lavished with incredible pomp but without any concession ..." - composing without any concession is what Schoenberg would do for life ;) - Alma Mahler, - I dropped the pipe in ALT2. We had this gorgeous DYK about her, remember? She is known and interesting, and she phrased an interesting observation interestingly, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)