Template:Did you know nominations/1985 Gujarat riots
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 16:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
1985 Gujarat riots
- ...
that the 1985 Gujarat riots involved violence against both Muslims and people from lower castes?- ALT1:... that during the 1985 Gujarat riots, police in Ahmedabad attacked and burned down the offices of a newspaper?
- Reviewed: Portia White
Improved to Good Article status by Vanamonde93 (talk). Self-nominated at 20:09, 26 May 2020 (UTC).
New enough (GA today), long enough (21,000+ chars.), neutral, cites sources, passes Earwig and eye tests for plagiarism. Hooks are both short enough, though I don't think that the first hook is anywhere near as interesting as the second, so I recommend ALT1. QPQ is present, no image. AGF because I am not paying $25 to get access to the journal article that ALT1 cites. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 23:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- Need better hook: The first one singles out Muslims and lower castes as victims and likely forgets "Dabgarwad massacre", which resulted in deaths of 8 Hindus (it is yet to be made clear what was their caste), thus it is not broad enough. ALT1 is absolutely not broad enough either. Shashank5988 (talk) 15:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- The hook does not say violence was exclusively against Muslims and lower castes. It was primarily against them, as numerous sources attest. Besides, hooks are not supposed to summarize the entire article, they are supposed to provide a fact that is interesting. Do you have a basis in policy for your objection, or is this is just a case of not liking it? Vanamonde (Talk) 15:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- First of all you need to WP:AGF. This only talks about caste reservations. This says that the riots "began as caste riots.... Within a month, these caste riots escalated into communal violence between Hindus and Muslims." This says "In Gujarat in 1985, riots erupted and despite having a huge majority in the state assembly the local Congress party and state government were unable to cope with minority agitation." These sources show that the hook 1 is not accurate enough and contradicts the summary provided by majority of sources. Shashank5988 (talk) 16:13, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- You need to read the hooks more carefully, and to read more sources about this incident, before making unfounded assertions. First, ALT0 only says it involved violence against Muslims and lower caste people, not that those were the only forms of violence. DYK hooks do not need to summarize the articles they are drawn from; they need to be accurate, and this one is. Second, the sources that go into this incident in detail (ie not the ones you are quoting) all support the hook. Did you even read those sources? Third, it's fairly obvious that you have not paid much attention to the source material. Asghar Ali Engineer has written several books and articles that discuss these riots, and very explicitly talks about anti-Muslim violence. Even the other source you cite talks about anti-reservation violence, and about how "all the accused booked for acts of violence against Dalits (under-privileged castes, for anyone watching this) and Muslims would go free", on page 25. The other part of that source discussing the 1985 riots is a chapter by Ornit Shani, whose 2007 book is used heavily in the article; and she discusses anti-Muslim violence and anti-Dalit violence very explicitly as well. @The Squirrel Conspiracy: it's your review that's being challenged here. I assert that the hooks are well-sourced and accurate, and that the objections above hold no water because Shashank5988 has not bothered to familiarize themselves with the source material. I'm happy to provide quotes, if you would like. Do you stand by your review? Vanamonde (Talk) 17:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- pinging The Squirrel Conspiracy again. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Read WP:HOOK's point #4. The hook you are proposing isn't neutral. I cited the short descriptions from the sources, and they are very far from matching the hook you have proposed. Thus the hook isn't accurate given it only shows a very single portion of the conflict. Shashank5988 (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Still I've struck ALT0. ALT1 is cited, neutral, and the more interesting hook (and the one I recommended in my original review). The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 18:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I fundamentally disagree with the claim that ALT0 isn't neutral, but I agree ALT1 is more interesting, so I can live with that. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I never said that it wasn't neutral. I struck it because there's no sense arguing about one hook when a better one is available. Please don't take my attempt at de-escalation the wrong way. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- @The Squirrel Conspiracy: Okay, thanks for the clarification. There's a tendency for folks unfamiliar with contentious topics to see "both sides" as being equally right or wrong in a dispute, and as someone who's contributed and/or adminned several such, I have little patience for that approach. If all that you were trying to do was de-escalate, I appreciate that, and I agree the hook itself is not worth arguing over (you may have noticed Shashank5988 initially grumbled about both hooks, and then quietly dropped their objection to the second...). Regards, Vanamonde (Talk) 16:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I came by to promote this, but the hook seems rather run of the mill. Would you like to add an additional fact to pep it up?- ALT2:
... that during the 1985 Gujarat riots, police in Ahmedabad attacked and burned down the offices of a newspaper that had previously criticized the police violence?Yoninah (talk) 13:17, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- @The Squirrel Conspiracy: Okay, thanks for the clarification. There's a tendency for folks unfamiliar with contentious topics to see "both sides" as being equally right or wrong in a dispute, and as someone who's contributed and/or adminned several such, I have little patience for that approach. If all that you were trying to do was de-escalate, I appreciate that, and I agree the hook itself is not worth arguing over (you may have noticed Shashank5988 initially grumbled about both hooks, and then quietly dropped their objection to the second...). Regards, Vanamonde (Talk) 16:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- I never said that it wasn't neutral. I struck it because there's no sense arguing about one hook when a better one is available. Please don't take my attempt at de-escalation the wrong way. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I fundamentally disagree with the claim that ALT0 isn't neutral, but I agree ALT1 is more interesting, so I can live with that. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Still
- Read WP:HOOK's point #4. The hook you are proposing isn't neutral. I cited the short descriptions from the sources, and they are very far from matching the hook you have proposed. Thus the hook isn't accurate given it only shows a very single portion of the conflict. Shashank5988 (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- First of all you need to WP:AGF. This only talks about caste reservations. This says that the riots "began as caste riots.... Within a month, these caste riots escalated into communal violence between Hindus and Muslims." This says "In Gujarat in 1985, riots erupted and despite having a huge majority in the state assembly the local Congress party and state government were unable to cope with minority agitation." These sources show that the hook 1 is not accurate enough and contradicts the summary provided by majority of sources. Shashank5988 (talk) 16:13, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
