Template:Did you know nominations/Alma Mahler

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:39, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Alma Mahler

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~~... that Alma Mahler was so concerned about her image that she altered her husband Gustav Mahler's legacy by doctoring his letters?~~Source: Gustav Mahler to Alma
- ALT1:~~... that many artists, including Gustav Mahler and Oskar Kokoschka considered Alma Mahler their muse.~~ Source: The Alma problem

Improved to Good Article status by Gandhi (BYU) (talk). Self-nominated at 21:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC).

As interesting as this article is, unfortunately I do not see the criterias of new within the past seven days, or prose portion expanded at least fivefold or prose portion expanded at least twofold fulfilled apart from the promotion to good article status. Or is that enough? If so, more references need to be added though to the hook, I only see one at the moment. Gryffindor (talk) 11:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Gryffindor, according to this page recent GAs are eligible for DYK nomination. Could you elaborate about the need for more references to be added to the hook? The reference refers to all the facts in the hook, however, if I'm not understanding something please let me know. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 14:42, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, at the moment you have only one source. Do you have another source that can verify the claim of the first? It would be better. Gryffindor (talk) 17:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Gandhi (BYU) and Gryffindor: Posting here per Gryffindor's question on my user discussion page. A recently promoted GA is fine (no expansion is necessary if the GA was promoted within seven days of the nomination, which it has). This is long enough at 14,309 prose characters. It is okay to source a hook to a single reference, as long as the hook actually says what is mentioned in the reference. Both hooks do so, but IMO, ALT1 is more interesting. Here is a template to make the review easier. (Gryffindor, you still have to check sourcing, neutrality, and whether this article has any plagiarism. For the plagiarism issue, you can check from this link, though in this case, it looks like someone copied from Wikipedia.) epicgenius (talk) 17:22, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Gryffindor, the Youtube page cites Wikipedia as its source. At the end of the video's description it says it came from Wikipedia. I have corrected your concerns. Please link me to this page so I am able to know when you next respond and how you would like to proceed. Thank you! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 20:01, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

@Gandhi (BYU): Got it. It looks good, ready to go. Gryffindor (talk) 08:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Gryffindor and talk, thank you for looking over the DYK nomination. If you could strike through the problems that were fixed I would appreciate it. Thank you!Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 20:20, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Gandhi (BYU): Done. Gryffindor (talk) 21:56, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing: - ~~Source "She also noted that to marry Zemlinsky would mean she would "bring short, degenerate Jew-children into the world."~~
Neutral: - ~~Rephrase "Schindler would tease Zemlinsky about his ugly features,". That is a subjective statement, make it clearer that it is.~~
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - ~~Sorry, considerable amounts of the text have been taken 1:1 from the description text of this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igJ6WVVwCjs~~

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting: - In my opinion, ALT1 is more interesting, but feel free to disagree. epicgenius (talk) 17:22, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

QPQ: None required.

Invalid status "yes" - use one of "y", "?", "maybe", "no" or "again"

I pulled the hook from the queue per this discussion. It looks like a new hook will be needed. Gatoclass (talk) 14:22, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Courtesy ping to Gandhi (BYU). Gatoclass (talk) 14:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Gatoclass, I wrote two more hooks. If there is anything else I need to do please let me know.Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 16:07, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm interestd in the woman and ready to review, - please write the two hooks you mean below, - can't tell where in the above I'd find them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, the hooks at the top of the page are the new ones. Thank you for reviewing! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Let's consider this then (I thought that ALT1 was pulled, sorry), from above:

Alma Mahler by Kokoschka, 1912

ALT2: ~~... that many artists, including Gustav Mahler and Oskar Kokoschka (portrait of her pictured), considered Alma Mahler their muse?~~ I added a comma and the questionmark. How about saying that Mahler was a composer, and Kokoschka a painter, and adding architect Gropius? We should not expect people to know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:37, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, what about this? Also, will you tag me next time so I get notified when you respond? Thanks! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 14:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

ALT3 ~~... that many artists, including Gustav Mahler the composer, Oskar Kokoschka the painter, and Walter Gropius the architect, considered (portrait of her pictured) Alma Mahler their muse?~~

I suggest the other way round, - we want readers to click on her, not all the men ;)

ALT4: ... that Alma Mahler inspired artists including composer Gustav Mahler, painter Oskar Kokoschka (his portrait of her pictured) and architect Walter Gropius? - No I usually don't ping, expecting the nomination to be on your watchlist. I'll ping if weeks pass without a response.

Image is licensed and unusual, and a good illustration of the hook. I'll watch for other suggestions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

The article doesn't say anywhere that I can see that the subject "inspired" either Mahler or Gropius, so ALT4 looks dodgy to me. Gatoclass (talk) 19:29, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

I only translated "considered their muse" to active voice, or what is a muse if not something inspiring art? Our article says "inspirational". Do you have a different way to say the same? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Gerda, I don't know how I'm supposed to find "muse" when the hook says "inspired", but regardless, it seems to be sourced to a satirical song, which hardly qualifies as reliable. Gatoclass (talk) 10:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I came here to review, but here you go without musing and inspiration:

ALT5: ... that Oskar Kokoschka portrayed Alma Mahler (pictured), who was then the wife of composer Gustav Mahler, and later married the architect Walter Gropius and the writer Franz Werfel? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Better, but it looks as if it is not quite correct as the article says she was Mahler's widow by the time the painting was made. I suggest a tweak along the following lines:

ALT6: ... that Alma Mahler (pictured by her one-time lover Oskar Kokoschka) was successively married to composer Gustav Mahler, architect Walter Gropius and writer Franz Werfel? Gatoclass (talk) 18:04, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Could we maybe not? It's kind of a sexist stereotype to define women by the men they're associated with. I'd rather see something about Mahler herself than something about her husbands. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I am a woman, and think it says a lot about HER that she attracted all these creative men, and don't know any comparable biography. Her compositions don't match that, for example, unfortunately. - I said "inspired" above, but that is not sourced ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs) 06:55, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I was a little uneasy about proposing that as a hook myself David Eppstein for the reason you cite. The problem could probably be resolved, I think, by referring to her as "composer Alma Mahler" to emphasize her own accomplishments. I guess we could also eliminate the mention of her relationship to Kokoschka, although like Gerda I think it interesting that she was able to attract four partners who were notable in their own right. Gatoclass (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

David Eppstein and Gatoclass, I am a woman as well. Alma Mahler is a complicated topic but she is notable because of her romantic achievements and the tampering of her first husband, Gustav Mahler's, legacy see the Alma Problem for more information. Many notable women have been neglected because history and writers decided who these women married and who they had affairs with was more important. This is an injustice. However, Alma Mahler is notable for her marriages and affairs. I don't like this reason because it is derogatory to Alma Mahler and to women, yet it is unfortunately true. Many women are notable because of their achievements in society. Alma Mahler is notable for exactly what woman are often stereotyped as.

Proof of Notability: Subject must receive significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Wikipedia:Notability

NY Times article about The Bride of the Wind which speaks about Alma Mahler's conquests. I am happy to add this.
- Also, Koehler's Bride of the Wind
Chicago Tribune tells the story of Alma Mahler's life through the men she was around.
Alma Mahler Muse to Genius
Malevolent muse The life of Alma Mahler
Alma Mahler or the Art of Being Loved

Alma Problem Notability

As a composer

Her compositions were published because of her husband, Gustav. However, since then they have been performed. Sarah Connolly is a performer who has played songs by Alma Mahler. The Alma Problem

Alma Mahler's composition have been notable enough to be written about. However, the majority of writing on Alma Mahler is about her romantic conquests. Her marriages and document tampering must be taken into account to accurately depict her life and why Alma was notable. I believe adding "composer Alma Mahler" is relevant as well as keeping the relationships that are referred to in the hook.Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay, to get this moving again and to address David Eppstein's concerns, I suggest the following tweak to ALT6 above:

ALT6a: ... that composer Alma Mahler (pictured by Oskar Kokoschka) was successively married to composer Gustav Mahler, architect Walter Gropius and writer Franz Werfel? Gatoclass (talk) 13:03, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh come ON -- surely we can work in a Tom Lehrer hook. Just about any couplet from the song [1] will do; Hilmes p.281ff is the source. How about

ALT7 ... that after Alma Mahler (portrait by Oskar Kokoschka pictured)‍—‌married in turn to Gustav Mahler, Walter Gropius and Franz Werfel‍—‌died, Tom Lehrer sang, "There were three famous ones whom she married / and God knows how many between!"?

or

ALT7a ... that after the death of Alma Mahler (portrait by Oskar Kokoschka pictured)‍—‌married in turn to Gustav Mahler, Walter Gropius and Franz Werfel‍—‌Tom Lehrer crooned, "The body that reached her embalmah / Was one that had known how to live!"?

(197 and 200, respectively)? If people like this I'll be happy to work appropriate text into the article. E Eng 16:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Oops, I see that the article already mentions Lehrer after all (I thought I'd checked for that) but saying "Tom Lehrer played this song at his concert at the hungry i, 1965" is a bit off -- he performed the song many times, and the hungry i was certainly neither the first nor the last performance, just the one on the well-known album. It's a great example of just one more reason primary sources must be used with great caution. But anyway that's all easily fixed.

And to anticipate David Eppstein, I'm not uncomfortable at all with defining a women by the men she was associated with -- I'll be perfectly happy to define a man by the women he was associated with too, when the time comes, especially if it means working Tom Lehrer in. E Eng 16:54, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I like the idea of working Lehrer into the hook, but am not that keen on the above quotes. Suggested alt:

ALT8: ... that of thrice-married composer Alma Mahler (pictured), Tom Lehrer crooned "Alma, tell us! All modern women are jealous. Which of your magical wands got you Gustav and Walter and Franz"? Gatoclass (talk) 16:58, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

That's way better; I've struck mine. But let's go a bit further:

ALT8a: ... that of thrice-married composer Alma Maria Mahler Gropius Werfel (pictured), Tom Lehrer crooned "Alma, tell us! All modern women are jealous. Which of your magical wands got you Gustav and Walter and Franz"?

Nonetheless I can't decide if the best line is "Which of your magical wands" vs. "Though you didn't even use Pond's" vs. "You should have a statue in bronze" vs. "ducks always envy the swans" (each requiring slight other adjustments). They're all so brilliant. E Eng 17:13, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not keen on the addition of all the surnames as I think it kind of spoils the intrigue. Having looked at the other choruses, I think I still prefer the "magical wands" line. Also, that's the quote in the article. Gatoclass (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Fine, let's go with ALT8. I agree with Gatoclass re the surnames, and the connection to conductors' wands makes that line better than the other less-musical ones. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy with that. I'm The Happy Hooker. But wait... should it end Franz?"?? E Eng 01:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I think two question marks is too many. And the one for the "did you know" question is more important than the one from the quote. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

So, David Eppstein, it wasn't too confusing that my question ended with 'Franz?"??'?