- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 10:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
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Concentricities
Graham Waterhouse in 2020
... that Concentricities, a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse (pictured), was inspired by concentric phenomena in nature and culture, and by allusions to "cities"?Source: Schott for the dates, Palmer for the inspiration- Reviewed: Manuel Carpio
- Comment: The piece is part of the composer's birthday celebrations on both 4 and 5 Nov. We could make a hook about that, possibly better afterwards, of just run it one of those days. The composer likes puns such as "cities" in the other word, - perhaps that could be worded better?
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 11:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC).
Good to go for DYK. Article meets new, length, and other requirements. Hook is interesting, sourced. Everything's within policy. I agree that a birthday-related hook could also be run, but ALT0 definitely works for DYK. Soulbust (talk) 20:44, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you! It's too late for the birthday celebrations, - I'll enjoy it in the concert later today (5 Nov already where I live). To the prep builder: the pic appeared already for the real birthday, so probably we don't want to run it again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt:
I'm afraid I don't understand the hook at all? I mean, you lose me after "(pictured)". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 01:53, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Please tell me what you don't understand in explaining the title? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- What are "concentric phenomena in nature and culture", and what are scare-quoted "cities"? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Concentricities contains "cities" as a play with words, - I don't know how to explain, and it's like explaining a joke.
- ALT1: (which is the publisher of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 02:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: ah, that's more of a pun than an allusion, then. Maybe an ALT0a to that effect? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- I said "pun" in my first comment, and said better wording welcome because I have a hard time with such things. I'm on vacation, just discovered I was late for a nom, am behind with three qpq, have that Talia Or thing open, and two recent deaths articles waiting, - have mercy, look at ALT1. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 03:34, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: yeah, I looked at it. Back to ALT0, I think. Here's my suggestions:
- ALT0a:
... that the name of Graham Waterhouse's (pictured) Concentricities is a pun on "cities" and concentric phenomena in nature and culture? - ALT0b: ... that the name of Concentricities, a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse (pictured), is a pun on "cities" and concentric phenomena in nature and culture?
- Still confused on what "concentric phenomena" are, though... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 04:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- thank you for trying. I do prefer ALT1 at this point as a and b shift the focus to the pun and the title, while this is a serious piece of music. ALTa could mean anything. - If pursuing your angle, take it from b, and the name should come first at least, and forget pictured, - we had this picture on his birthday, as said above, which made me happy! - the phenomena is the composer's wording, and images summarised by it are (as the article says) the circles of birds of prey high in the air, a modern city, a pagoda, the circles after a stone drops into water, and a stone circle such as Stonehenge - too long to name, and not just a pun. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Then we find ourselves at an impasse, as I see ALT1 as rather routine. Schott Music is a music publishing company, it publishes music just like any other music publishing company. I don't see how that makes this special, even if they did publish Beethoven's Ninth. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 09:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think the words you'd be looking for for ALT0, by the way, would just be "inspired by concentric shapes in nature and culture". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 09:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping to Soulbust, the reviewer. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 09:48, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- no, the flight of birds is not a shape, nor the movement of water after something falls in it - Publishing houses are not created equal, and Schott - the Ninth - stand for both weight and tradition. Schott published Wagner when others were shy: that's courage also. DYK?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2:
... that the second of five movements of Concentricities, a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse, is named Cities? - theleekycauldron, how is this attempt at a bit of a pun? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:03, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- thank you for trying. I do prefer ALT1 at this point as a and b shift the focus to the pun and the title, while this is a serious piece of music. ALTa could mean anything. - If pursuing your angle, take it from b, and the name should come first at least, and forget pictured, - we had this picture on his birthday, as said above, which made me happy! - the phenomena is the composer's wording, and images summarised by it are (as the article says) the circles of birds of prey high in the air, a modern city, a pagoda, the circles after a stone drops into water, and a stone circle such as Stonehenge - too long to name, and not just a pun. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- I said "pun" in my first comment, and said better wording welcome because I have a hard time with such things. I'm on vacation, just discovered I was late for a nom, am behind with three qpq, have that Talia Or thing open, and two recent deaths articles waiting, - have mercy, look at ALT1. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 03:34, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: ah, that's more of a pun than an allusion, then. Maybe an ALT0a to that effect? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- What are "concentric phenomena in nature and culture", and what are scare-quoted "cities"? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Please tell me what you don't understand in explaining the title? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt:
- Thank you! It's too late for the birthday celebrations, - I'll enjoy it in the concert later today (5 Nov already where I live). To the prep builder: the pic appeared already for the real birthday, so probably we don't want to run it again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt, Theleekycauldron, and Soulbust: Could we come to some resolution on this in the next few days? If we don't have an approved hook by December 10th, I'll close this as rejected. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:22, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not quite a fan of ALT2, it comes across as a little bland? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 22:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Can you word it better? Remember that Soulbust liked the original? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:33, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- There's a few ways to reword ALT2 that might make the point more apparent, but I don't think I could make that tidbit intriguing. Soulbust is welcome to tell me why they approved the hook, in case I'm missing something, but it seems as though we disagree. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 22:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- And because the disapproval of one person, we have another discussion longer than the article, discussing for four weeks what will appear for 12 hours? Sometimes I fail to see effort and gain of DYK in proportion. It could be simply a sentence raising interest for a new article, and some will be more interested than others, no big deal. Imagine! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Gerda, my job is to uphold the guidelines as currently written. We can have as many discussions as you want on what established practice should be, but until then, there doesn't seem to be much I can do for you. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 00:22, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- A 21st-century clarinet-cello-trio is already unusual, - I thought we better also say something explaining the title. But give me another day to pursue the birthday idea. Due to this discussion, I was one minute late for a DYK nom. I want to do two noms for Christmas and haven't even started article work. I improved a RD article that failed because almost nobody noticed, and another one that hasn't appeared yet, and today is the last day. Add the yearly arbitration frustration. Just to describe the mood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- At least the RD was marked ready overnight. One load less. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:59, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- ... and the late DYK nom was already approved, another load less.
- ALT3: ... that Concentricities, a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse (pictured), was performed with the composer as the cellist at the Allerheiligen-Hofkirche in Munich on the occasion of his 60th birthday? (better wording welcome, - it was 5 November 2022, but the birthday 2 November 2022)
- Repeating: clarinet-cello-piano trios are rare, those with an article are 4, one by Beethoven, one by Brahms, one by Zemlinsky, and this one, so all hooks mentioning that should be unusual already, imho. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:12, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- "Rare" and "intriguing" are not the same thing, particularly not when someone not especially acquainted with the subject wouldn't know that it's rare (though I did). As for ALT3, my understanding of past hooks commemorating similar instances is that they aren't treated as very interesting by the readership. I can look for examples, if you'd like? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- For an example of an 80th birthday, check out Walter Fink, - today, someone would say in horror that it was advertisement as published before the event ;) - I am proud of it here, it sums up nicely what he stood for. Saw his widow in the concert last Wednesday. - I thought we had now dropped the "acquainted" thingy, and - sorry about my lack of language - don't know exactly what "intriguing" means. When DYK and I were younger (2009), DYK was to give new articles a chance to be seen, and the lesser known the topic the higher the urgency to promote it out of obscurity. There was no talk of having to please/attract/tickle the audience, - just say something that might catch interest. I thought the original hook did that, but you - and so far only you - don't think so. Another attempt at hinting at the pun in the title:
- ALT4: ... that Concentricities is a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse in five movements, four inspired by concentric things and one by "cities"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Whether or not the reader is acquainted is the key point of the new guideline: It says "and likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest". "Intriguing" means not just interesting, but hooky – it means that the hook should leave a question or incongruency in the mind of the reader that makes them want to know more. "No special knowledge or interest" means not well-acquainted with the subject. I'm glad that you're proud of the things you produce; you should be, you do consistently great work :) and I don't know what DYK was like in 2009, because I was four years old – but what I do know is that the DYK I volunteer for just had a discussion on what it wants its content to be, and we came to a place where we thought that hooks should attract readers of all stripes to learn more about the new content we want to showcase. ALT4 isn't the worst hook I've seen, but I don't see why it's a significantly better hook than what has previously been proposed in this nomination and past nominations. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 10:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- What DYK was like is easily be seen in the archives, for example when the composer was "on", 4 sets per day. That was my first DYK: someone who had helped me with my first article (after it was deleted) had nominated, and I received a message on my talk and had no idea what DYK stood for. I knew, however, that I didn't like the hook because it mentioned "extraterrestrial" and I didn't want my subject in an esoteric corner ;) - Now my lack of language: for me it says "unusual or intriguing", so just "unusual" would be enough, and clarinet-cello-piano trio is simply unusual (and if readers haven't heard the term they will know it's unusual), and a 21st-century one even more unusual, and in five movements yet more unusual. What do I miss? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- It says "likely to be perceived as unusual... by readers with no special knowledge or interest". In other words, it should be quickly clear to the not-well-acquainted why a hook is unusual, and thus possibly worthy of further reading. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 11:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Isn't that what I just said. Someone not knowing Concentricities and clarinet-cello-piano trio does perceive something unusual. - Did you look at the archive? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:13, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not quite – the name Graham Waterhouse is probably new to most people, that wouldn't mean that they perceive it as unusual. There are plenty of things we see in the day-to-day that we've never seen before in that exact way, but our brains are good at trying to make sense of new things and fit it into categories we've seen before. Truly knowing that something is unusual, getting past the reader's brain that tries to rationalize why something is ordinary, requires the reader to have enough knowledge to be able to grapple with the material in front of them. Most readers would have as much context for the term "clarinet-cello-piano trio" as they would for "SATB", "f-hole", and "cantata". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:12, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am sorry, I don't know why you speak about Graham Waterhouse at all when I say that the first two things, the title and the instrument combination, are already unusual enough to make curious. We had the composer on DYK twice last month, once pictured, - observant DYK readers are already familiar. In defense of ALT3: it's not just an event, it says in other words that this piece is among those a person picked to represent his work from 5 decades. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hi. There's been a lot of back and forth. Sorry for not responding earlier, I haven't been able to engage in conversations like this because I have been busy offline and have only been able to do some basic editing on articles here and there. But either way, I originally checked off the original hook because the "concentric phenomena in nature and culture" caught my eye. I don't know much (or anything really) about piano trios or classical music compositions. But I think that's a good thing and in the spirit of DYK, to help promote new articles about a wide range of topics. I think much of the back and forth has been rather subjective, perhaps? I'm just failing to see the hold-up on having this go through. The article is eligible, the hook is formatted properly. I think the problem lies in the hook content but looking at this it meets all of the listed criteria. Maybe it isn't "hooky" to some, but I think ALT4 especially clears any hoops and should be greenlit. I also think we should really value the aims and objectives section of the DYK project.
- I think for an article such as this one, it is probably a little more difficult to craft a hook that sounds "hooky" (to "general" audiences/readers) than it would be for something about video games or film (maybe not, again, I have a really limited knowledge about compositions and classical music). We should probably take that into account, and understand that naturally some readers might not be interested by this article's DYK hook (just as some readers might not be interested by some video game related hook, etc.). For what it's worth, I think I would qualify as a reader "with no special knowledge or interest" in something like Concentricities but the "clarinet-cello-piano trio" phrasing/terminology certainly looked (still looks) like an unusual term to me. Soulbust (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am sorry, I don't know why you speak about Graham Waterhouse at all when I say that the first two things, the title and the instrument combination, are already unusual enough to make curious. We had the composer on DYK twice last month, once pictured, - observant DYK readers are already familiar. In defense of ALT3: it's not just an event, it says in other words that this piece is among those a person picked to represent his work from 5 decades. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not quite – the name Graham Waterhouse is probably new to most people, that wouldn't mean that they perceive it as unusual. There are plenty of things we see in the day-to-day that we've never seen before in that exact way, but our brains are good at trying to make sense of new things and fit it into categories we've seen before. Truly knowing that something is unusual, getting past the reader's brain that tries to rationalize why something is ordinary, requires the reader to have enough knowledge to be able to grapple with the material in front of them. Most readers would have as much context for the term "clarinet-cello-piano trio" as they would for "SATB", "f-hole", and "cantata". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:12, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Isn't that what I just said. Someone not knowing Concentricities and clarinet-cello-piano trio does perceive something unusual. - Did you look at the archive? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:13, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- It says "likely to be perceived as unusual... by readers with no special knowledge or interest". In other words, it should be quickly clear to the not-well-acquainted why a hook is unusual, and thus possibly worthy of further reading. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 11:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- What DYK was like is easily be seen in the archives, for example when the composer was "on", 4 sets per day. That was my first DYK: someone who had helped me with my first article (after it was deleted) had nominated, and I received a message on my talk and had no idea what DYK stood for. I knew, however, that I didn't like the hook because it mentioned "extraterrestrial" and I didn't want my subject in an esoteric corner ;) - Now my lack of language: for me it says "unusual or intriguing", so just "unusual" would be enough, and clarinet-cello-piano trio is simply unusual (and if readers haven't heard the term they will know it's unusual), and a 21st-century one even more unusual, and in five movements yet more unusual. What do I miss? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Whether or not the reader is acquainted is the key point of the new guideline: It says "and likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest". "Intriguing" means not just interesting, but hooky – it means that the hook should leave a question or incongruency in the mind of the reader that makes them want to know more. "No special knowledge or interest" means not well-acquainted with the subject. I'm glad that you're proud of the things you produce; you should be, you do consistently great work :) and I don't know what DYK was like in 2009, because I was four years old – but what I do know is that the DYK I volunteer for just had a discussion on what it wants its content to be, and we came to a place where we thought that hooks should attract readers of all stripes to learn more about the new content we want to showcase. ALT4 isn't the worst hook I've seen, but I don't see why it's a significantly better hook than what has previously been proposed in this nomination and past nominations. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 10:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- "Rare" and "intriguing" are not the same thing, particularly not when someone not especially acquainted with the subject wouldn't know that it's rare (though I did). As for ALT3, my understanding of past hooks commemorating similar instances is that they aren't treated as very interesting by the readership. I can look for examples, if you'd like? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Gerda, my job is to uphold the guidelines as currently written. We can have as many discussions as you want on what established practice should be, but until then, there doesn't seem to be much I can do for you. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 00:22, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- And because the disapproval of one person, we have another discussion longer than the article, discussing for four weeks what will appear for 12 hours? Sometimes I fail to see effort and gain of DYK in proportion. It could be simply a sentence raising interest for a new article, and some will be more interested than others, no big deal. Imagine! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- There's a few ways to reword ALT2 that might make the point more apparent, but I don't think I could make that tidbit intriguing. Soulbust is welcome to tell me why they approved the hook, in case I'm missing something, but it seems as though we disagree. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 22:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Can you word it better? Remember that Soulbust liked the original? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:33, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not quite a fan of ALT2, it comes across as a little bland? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 22:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Reopening to see if we can find an alt.
- ALT0c:
... that Concentricities, a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse, was inspired by a common theme of circular, spiraling, or oscillating concentric phenomena in nature and human structures. - ALT6: ... that Concentricities, a 2019 clarinet-cello-piano trio by Graham Waterhouse, musically depicts a theme of circular, spiraling, or oscillating concentric phenomena in nature and human structures?
I don't think the current image adds anything, and "clarinet-cello-piano trio" seems unlikely to be misunderstood. Valereee (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the suggestions and the revival! I like ALT0c a lot better because "depicts musically" isn't exactly what's happening. I took the liberty of linking the genre and adding question marks. The genre has an article (to my surprise), and this piece is one of few with an article. The image is a leftover from the original nom, - if you look at later ALTs, there's no "pictured" any more. The image appeared with his list of compositions on his birthday, but I could only hope for that when I wrote the nominations. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'd like to wait until after Talia Or airs on the main page, because I'm curious to see how a similar hook from a situation performs. Or's hook was the result of much discussion and compromise after the hook was initially pulled from queue on interestingness grounds. I'd like to see (sample size of one, unfortunately) if these compromise hooks have a significantly better run. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 05:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- How could you tell how the original hook for Or would have performed, without having run it (which would be a neat experiment)? I predict both will/would run about the same because of the attractive image. Who cares what the hook says with her looking at you? - I predict also that it will be less successful than it could be some other day because several countries including where she lives have still Christmas then, and people meet friends, and don't look at Wikipedia. - If we look closer at the Or hook: while the original has her Israel connection, and the Jewish singer making Christian music, the one we run speaks about something like the smallest role in her career, just because of the fancy place and the cute name of the role. One despairs over the interpretation of interesting. - Here, however, the new hook is a rewording of the original, nothing really new, - why you feel you have to wait I don't know. But as you like. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- I have a general sense of how nominations with the style and tone of Or perform; it's not perfect, and I would also like to run some A/B testing, but alas – we're stuck with this for now. As for timing, I'm not seeing a statistically significant difference in our stats tables, so I can't verify that a holiday season dip in views is really a factor. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 07:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- How could you tell how the original hook for Or would have performed, without having run it (which would be a neat experiment)? I predict both will/would run about the same because of the attractive image. Who cares what the hook says with her looking at you? - I predict also that it will be less successful than it could be some other day because several countries including where she lives have still Christmas then, and people meet friends, and don't look at Wikipedia. - If we look closer at the Or hook: while the original has her Israel connection, and the Jewish singer making Christian music, the one we run speaks about something like the smallest role in her career, just because of the fancy place and the cute name of the role. One despairs over the interpretation of interesting. - Here, however, the new hook is a rewording of the original, nothing really new, - why you feel you have to wait I don't know. But as you like. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- I like alt 6. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 04:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Having looked through the article more fully, this looks good to me. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:53, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Having looked through the article more fully, this
- I'd like to wait until after Talia Or airs on the main page, because I'm curious to see how a similar hook from a situation performs. Or's hook was the result of much discussion and compromise after the hook was initially pulled from queue on interestingness grounds. I'd like to see (sample size of one, unfortunately) if these compromise hooks have a significantly better run. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 05:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)