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Template:Did you know nominations/Donald H. Bochkay

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 21:32, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Donald H. Bochkay

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  • ALT1: ... that fighter pilot Donald H. Bochkay (pictured) obtained a silk undergarment and, using it to attract an English barmaid in a pub, he remarked, "Stick with me honey, and you'll be farting through silk"? Source as above. By Toadboy123

Created by Toadboy123 (talk). Self-nominated at 07:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Donald H. Bochkay; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: An interesting article - thank you for uploading it. A few points:

  • To avoid (very minor) plagiarism, please could you rephrase, "to impress an English barmaid"? - Something like "to attract a barmaid in an English pub", or " to catch the eye of an English barmaid" , or similar?
  • The hook needs to be rephrased: "a silk underwear" doesn't make sense. It's like saying you are going outside for a air, or that you are putting a gas in your car. You can substitute "some" for "a".
  • "To impress an English barmaid" needs to be rephrased in the hook (see my comment above).
  • Also, the hook needs a comma between "and" and "using" (that comma will define the secondary clause, "using it to catch the eye of an English barmaid," or however you rephrase it.).
Donald H. Bochkay
Donald H. Bochkay
  • I have cropped out the pilot's face from the ID pic in the article - you can use it with the hook if you wish. If so, you will need to add "(pictured)" to the hook.
  • Although your QPQ review has been queried, it looks like a minor matter which can be fixed, so I'm accepting the QPQ.

In summary, you need to rephrase the hook, and a little bit of the article, and decide whether you want to use the cropped picture. (You do not need to add the cropped picture into the article for DYK, because it is already there in the original picture). Storye book (talk) 11:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  • @Storye book Is this ALT fine: ... that fighter pilot Donald H. Bochkay obtained a silk underwear and, using it to attract an English barmaid in a pub, he remarked "stick with me honey, and you'll be farting through silk"? I have also made edits to the part of the article where the hook is mentioned. Let me know if the hook is now good to go? I am also fine if the image is also included in this ALT. - Toadboy123 (talk) 22:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you. We are nearly there. I agree that "obtained" is a better word. There is still a problem with the phraseology of "a silk underwear" (see my second point, above). You could change it to "some silk underwear", "silk underwear" (without the "a"), "an item of silk underwear", "silk undergarments", or "a silk undergarment". I prefer the last one, because you get to keep the "a", and the coy formality of the language contrasts nicely with his vulgar speech, making it more funny. But it's up to you. Storye book (talk) 07:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
@Storye book How is this now: ... that fighter pilot Donald H. Bochkay obtained a silk undergarment and, using it to attract an English barmaid in a pub, he remarked "stick with me honey, and you'll be farting through silk"? - Toadboy123 (talk) 13:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you, Toadboy123. All is well, now.
with ALT1 and image. To Admin: I request January 9 for this one - the anniversary of Bochkay's death. Storye book (talk) 17:15, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Toadboy123 and Storye book: I wouldn't fault you for thinking that there's really no making me happy, and I do apologize for that. That said, is this factoid really suitable for inclusion in the article? Like, is it in the article for a reason that isn't making a good DYK hook? It seems like... flavor text, mostly. A little out of place. (If Bochkay were notably suave and quippy and it were DUE to have a whole section about his Bochkayisms, that'd be another thing.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 03:22, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

If the hook is not fine, should I provide with an alternate then? - Toadboy123 (talk) 06:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron: WP is not here to judge. Biographies need to give an all-round view of the character, where possible, and where properly cited. This was a war hero who was also a colourful character: that sort of thing makes a balanced article. To remove the quotation on the grounds of vulgarity or taste would be against neutrality guidelines, bearing in mind that it breaks no WP rules. It is the kind of hook which would attract a lot of clicks on the main page, and would certainly bring a smile to the faces of a lot of people currently in the US air force. If Toadboy123 wants to suggest another ALT, that is up to them. But until that happens, I believe that the quote enhances and balances the article, and also happens to make a very hooky hook. I really think the days of ancestor-worship and war-hero worship are over. Today we respect past generations and at the same time we must accept that they were all-round characters, and that some had feet of clay. Please don't remove that quotation from the article, because if you do, that action will turn it into a mere hagiography.
Still good to go, as per my above review. Storye book (talk) 09:31, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
The article cites a section from a 1999 list from acepilots.com. As WP:MILHIST would probably not classify this as a reliable source, I looked up the citation to "Jerry Scutts, Mustang Aces of the Eighth Air Force, Osprey Publishing, 1994". This book is available online, but although it mentions Bochkay on pages 32 and 60, there is no mention of this humerous anecdote. @Toadboy123 and Storye book:, as I don't think we can place all our trust in the unreferenced words of a 1999 airplane enthusiast, I must ask for another hook. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
The quotation is offline. The source for the online Acepilots page is from Mustang Aces of the Eighth Air Force (Aircraft of the Aces, 1 (1994) by Jerry Scutts, pub. Osprey, 100 pages. The link that you are talking about goes to Mustang aces of the eighth air force (1999) pub. Delprado, 68 pages which has no author mentioned in the link - not even on the cover. If the 1999 at 88 pages is a shortened version of the 1994 book at 100 pages, that might explain why we can't find the quote in the online 1999 version.
I believe that the printed name and date of the 1994 source, written below the quote, takes precedence over the 1999 link, which is clearly an error. We have a convention here of taking offline books in good faith. I believe that the creator of the Acepilots page has attempted to find an online link for his hardcopy book, and then linked the wrong version. I see no reason why we cannot take the named source in good faith. Goodness knows, many US forces personnel in WWII did behave like that, and I see no reason to doubt that the source is the 1994 one with 100 pages. You use the word "unreferenced", but actually it is referenced, by Yale history graduate Stephen Sherman - to an offline book. As reviewer, I would still take it in good faith. Storye book (talk) 17:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
A very good catch about the difference in editions, Storye book. I consulted a certain online database, which probably should not be explicitly named for legal reasons, to see if they had the full, 100 page version. They did, here; it also does not contain the anecdote. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29: @Theleekycauldron: @Storye book: Here is another alternate hook instead of the above:
ALT2: ... that fighter pilot Donald H. Bochkay (pictured) shot down two jet-powered Messerschmitt Me 262s while flying a propeller-driven P-51 Mustang? Is this good to go? - Toadboy123 (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Thank you, everyone, for sorting this out. I have checked ALT2 references 2 and 9, and it checks out. The combat report is very faded, and with my failing eyesight was difficult to read, but I downloaded it and darkened it, and could then read it. Other refs support the combat report, and I am aware that the planes were indeed jet powered/prop-driven. The jet has refs for that in the WP article, and the prop plane is obvious from its pictures, anyway - to put it another way - take the prop off and it wouldn't work, would it. So yes.
I have struck out - with some sadness - ALTs 0 and 1. I believe it is still well worth keeping the underwear quote in the article in the hope of a citation being found for it in the future. If you don't want a citation-needed tag in the article while at DYK, I suggest that you remove the quote to the article talk page for the duration, than put it back, complete with tag, after DYK. That way, we don't forget about it.
Here we go again. Good to go, with ALT2 and image. Storye book (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
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