- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 20:06, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Five Pianos
Morton Feldman in 1976
- ... that when Five Pianos premiered in Berlin in 1972, composer Morton Feldman (pictured) was one of five humming pianists? Source: [1] p. 184
- Reviewed:
to come
- Reviewed:
Created by Ron Oliver (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 07:31, 10 April 2021 (UTC).
Article is new, neutral and long enough. It cites sources inline, bur sentences, which I marked with citatipn-needed template."Earwig's Copyvio Detector" reprts some high-rated text similarities., however, all result from quotes. The hook is well-formatted and interesting. Its length is within limit, and its fact is cited with an offline source, for which I AGF. The image is contained in the article, is ©-free, and can show up in smaller size format. Approval will follow after the citation-needed issues are addressed. CeeGee 16:12, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- How is this search for you? p. 184 in the book --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. I had no problem with the hook's citation. I had already AGF for that. The issue is with the missing citations in the article. CeeGee 16:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- I hope Ron Oliver will take care of them. There's an essay about indenting on top of User:Drmies, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- At least I reviewed now, Template:Did you know nominations/Photography of Sudan. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. I had no problem with the hook's citation. I had already AGF for that. The issue is with the missing citations in the article. CeeGee 16:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- How is this search for you? p. 184 in the book --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- I changed the phrasing, as the unsourced sentence was a mere clarification of the previous one. As for the second unsourced sentence, here is what the original (unavailable) source says about it: "Five pianists explore the depths of the enigmatic scale [...] while humming and playing the piano and celesta". If it needs further clarification, I can try to improve the article. Ron Oliver (talk) 21:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- The second issue is addressed. However, the first one remains still not resolved. A reference is needed following the period at the end of the sentence of that paragraph. CeeGee 04:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- May I simply move the ref towards the end of the sentence? I am only explaining what "free-duration" means, as there is no tempo marking and Feldman specifies that "no attempts at synchronization should be made", that is, it is up to the performers to decide the tempo. If that does not work, I will just remove the conflict. Ron Oliver (talk) 06:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- fcourse, if the fact is contained in the source cited beforeor else. I hope the unreferenced statement is not yours only.CeeGee 07:07, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Perfect! I moved the ref. Let me know if there is anything else that needs to be changed. Ron Oliver (talk) 09:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Everything is fine now. Good to go. CeeGee 10:16, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
None of the articles explain if the pianos are humming, or if the pianists are humming, which I think is an important fact since it is the interesting part of the hook (and the only thing I cared to find out when I read it). Kingsif (talk) 20:55, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't understand. It says that the pianists are required to hum. How could a piano even hum. - I don't know any other composition for FIVE pianos. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kingsif: SL93 (talk) 17:43, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, since in the response you have compared knowing that this is the only composition for five pianos to knowing that it is the pianists who hum, I think you know it wasn't obvious at all so I don't appreciate being talked down to. Less than 0.1% of the world's population know this stuff, and the article doesn't explain. It would not surprise me in the least if there is some fancy piano-playing technique called humming. Kingsif (talk) 18:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Kingsif I'm not seeing the issue and I'm not seeing how it's obvious that Gerda is talking down to anyone. It seems like simple frustration from Gerda. The article says, "On this occasion, John Cage, Cornelius Cardew, David Tudor, Frederic Rzewski, and Morton Feldman himself were the humming pianists." and "Players are also required to hum specific notes throughout the composition." To me, it seems obvious that the pianos aren't humming and that the pianists are (that is what the article says). I personally don't know much or understand much of these hooks that Gerda nominates, but I'm confused how there is any confusion. I did a Google search and the only pianos that make humming or buzzing sounds are broken. SL93 (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well it's not obvious to me. I would be surprised if I was the only one. "Humming pianists" could be "the pianists for the humming pianos" and saying "players are also required to hum" (my emphasis) isn't exactly clarifying that the pianos don't. This isn't stretching, these were my first thoughts when I went to find the one answer I wanted upon reading the hook, and couldn't, and still can't. Kingsif (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kingsif: Ok, but I feel that you are looking way too much into it. I will bring this up on the talk page just because this is an old nomination. SL93 (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- How is this then:
- ALT1: ... that when Five Pianos premiered in Berlin in 1972, composer Morton Feldman (pictured) was one of the five humming pianists performing it?
- How often did I hear that we should not says it all but make people curious?? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: My issue was with the articles, not the hooks. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I said that the hook was somewhat confusing but made me curious, it's just that the articles were more confusing and didn't resolve the curiosity. Kingsif (talk) 13:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- (Sigh. I am interrupting improving the articles of two people who just died.) Kingsif, I expanded the lead, please see if that helps somehow. I am still at a loss what made you ever think that the pianos hum, when the hook says the pianists hum. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: I'll assume you don't get it because it's a phrasing thing. In English "humming pianists" could easily mean "people who play humming pianos", like "upright bassists" means "people who play upright basses", not bass players who are upright. You don't need to reply with haste if you're working on something else, though. Kingsif (talk) 14:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- You are absolutely right that I never knew the phrasing thing, - do others? Ready to learn. I am simple-minded, and for me, a humming pianist is a pianist who hums, nothing else, and certainly not "easily". - What is an upright bass, pardon? - I always work on something else, I wanted to carefully hint at that improving articles of interest right now may be more important than arguing with one person misunderstanding. When I get a ping, I try to oblige, - or will easily forget. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Let me introduce you to upright bass, then. Given it's a common English morphology, and at DYK talk others expressed confusion, I don't think I'm the only one. I will add that the hook does use it in a way that assumes the reader knows what a "humming pianist" is, and in a way that treats it as a noun rather than an adjective + noun (little quirks of inference), so a different phrasing may have helped – but being a little deliberately confusing to get people to click isn't always a bad thing ;) Kingsif (talk) 14:26, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- I try not to be offended by "deliberately confusing" while I tried hard to explain that I had only my simple way of understanding that the pianists hum, and the other didn't come to my mind. I knew "double bass", but not upright bass, so thanks for teaching me. The source says "humming pianists", and I still see no reason not to say so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- You are absolutely right that I never knew the phrasing thing, - do others? Ready to learn. I am simple-minded, and for me, a humming pianist is a pianist who hums, nothing else, and certainly not "easily". - What is an upright bass, pardon? - I always work on something else, I wanted to carefully hint at that improving articles of interest right now may be more important than arguing with one person misunderstanding. When I get a ping, I try to oblige, - or will easily forget. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: I'll assume you don't get it because it's a phrasing thing. In English "humming pianists" could easily mean "people who play humming pianos", like "upright bassists" means "people who play upright basses", not bass players who are upright. You don't need to reply with haste if you're working on something else, though. Kingsif (talk) 14:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- (Sigh. I am interrupting improving the articles of two people who just died.) Kingsif, I expanded the lead, please see if that helps somehow. I am still at a loss what made you ever think that the pianos hum, when the hook says the pianists hum. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: My issue was with the articles, not the hooks. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I said that the hook was somewhat confusing but made me curious, it's just that the articles were more confusing and didn't resolve the curiosity. Kingsif (talk) 13:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Kingsif: Ok, but I feel that you are looking way too much into it. I will bring this up on the talk page just because this is an old nomination. SL93 (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well it's not obvious to me. I would be surprised if I was the only one. "Humming pianists" could be "the pianists for the humming pianos" and saying "players are also required to hum" (my emphasis) isn't exactly clarifying that the pianos don't. This isn't stretching, these were my first thoughts when I went to find the one answer I wanted upon reading the hook, and couldn't, and still can't. Kingsif (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Kingsif I'm not seeing the issue and I'm not seeing how it's obvious that Gerda is talking down to anyone. It seems like simple frustration from Gerda. The article says, "On this occasion, John Cage, Cornelius Cardew, David Tudor, Frederic Rzewski, and Morton Feldman himself were the humming pianists." and "Players are also required to hum specific notes throughout the composition." To me, it seems obvious that the pianos aren't humming and that the pianists are (that is what the article says). I personally don't know much or understand much of these hooks that Gerda nominates, but I'm confused how there is any confusion. I did a Google search and the only pianos that make humming or buzzing sounds are broken. SL93 (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
