Template:Did you know nominations/Franz Jakob Späth

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 00:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Franz Jakob Späth

(

)

~~... that Franz Jakob Späth's fortepianos were a favorite of Mozart, but refused by Beethoven?~~
- ALT1: ...that Franz Jakob Späth's fortepianos were a favorite of Mozart, but Beethoven refused to play them? Source:^[1]
- Reviewed:
- Comment: I have not made any DYK nominations previously ([1]), so I believe I am exempt from the QPQ requirement. Thank you to User:Schminte who suggested this.

Created by Fehufanga (talk). Self-nominated at 13:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Franz Jakob Späth; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Comment: I find the hook and article a bit confusing. Why did Beethoven refuse to play an instrument made by Späth? Was a personal grudge or did he just dislike the fortepiano? The hook and the article do not make this clear. Also, what is meant by "he improvised on the instrument", as it is a bit ambiguous. Also, in the hook, just saying "refused by Beethoven" isn't as clear as saying "but Beethoven refused to play them". Viriditas (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Junker and Tilman postulated that Beethoven was likely unaccustomed to playing on a Späth piano. improvised here refers to Musical improvisation. I have removed it since it seems only Tilman suggests that Beethoven continued to improvise on the same piano, and have added clarification on Beethoven's refusal.
- ...that Franz Jakob Späth's fortepianos were a favorite of Mozart, but Beethoven refused to play them? —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 04:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fehufanga: I made a few copyedits; please review.[2] I am biased against ALT0, so I don't want to approve it. I just can't get past the "refused by Beethoven" phrasing. Maybe it's just my brain, I don't know. ALT1 is fine, but looking over the article, I see far more interesting potential hooks, particularly the information regarding who invented the tangent piano. Unfortunately, when I look into this, I find it somewhat confusing, as you say Späth was widely credited as the inventor of the tangent piano, even though Jean Marius had proposed a similar mechanism in 1716; but when I visit the article on tangent piano, I'm presented with an entirely different set of information. Obviously, there is a problem of parity, and perhaps competing historical narratives, but it would be nice to get some solid footing on this subject. Apologies if I'm making this difficult, I'm not trying to do that. Viriditas (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I'm alright with the changes. I understand the confusion, as I myself encountered it when first reading about tangent pianos. Latcham (2004) lists several precursors of the tangent piano (p.156), but no source I found explicitly states that Pantaleon Hebenstreit as the inventor of the tangent piano, nor is the pantaleon ever called a tangent piano anywhere. I have reworded the first paragraph the article about tangent piano. I intend to rework the article entirely in a few months.—*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 05:55, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fehufanga: Do you want to try coming up with more hooks to choose from, or do you think ALT1 and ALT2 are your best choices for now? Viriditas (talk) 06:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Apologies, what do you mean by ALT2? I'm striking out ALT0 and will use ALT1 instead. I'll try to get another alt today.—*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 07:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fehufanga: It was a typo. I meant ALT0 and ALT1. Viriditas (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fehufanga: Will you be adding another hook? I see that the Dreieinigkeitskirche used Späth's organ for more than 250 years. If that could be sourced, it might be a good hook. Viriditas (talk) 09:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I think I can work with that. I'll add a bit more content to that part before I propose a new hook.—*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 11:52, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

If you want to add another hook, ping me, and I'll review it. Article is new enough and was moved to mainspace on Jan. 8 at which time it was long enough and met the requirements. Earwig isn't helpful in this regard due to the sources not being accessible to it for comparison. Sources, for the most part, require subscriptions. Spot checks on the sources that do not, do not reveal any issues. It is noticeable, however, that the interwiki Russian and German sites contain information (infoboxes, tables, images, etc.) that do not appear here, but that has nothing to do with DYK criteria. Image checks out, but one does wonder if a bit more work importing the interwiki info could have allowed the nom to have a top slot hook with an image, which would have resulted in more views. The "Instruments" section has a lot of potential, but I suspect some rearranging and restructuring would improve focus and attention to the subject. In any case, ALT1 is good for length and interest. Again, I am happy to review additional hooks if they arise. GTG. Viriditas (talk) 08:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Thank you. I had this idea for another hook:

ALT2: ...that Franz Jakob Späth's organ in the Dreieinigkeitskirche, Regensburg, was rebuilt to better fit Bach's music? Source: ^[2]

This way, the image of the organ in the Dreieinigkeitskirche can be used.—*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 13:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

As for the list of organs in the German Wikipedia, I omitted it at first because of the difficulty of accessing sources related to it.—*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 13:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fehufanga: That hook is quite a mouthful. In English, it is common for many churches to have the name "Trinity Church of x", such as Trinity Church of Regensburg. Is that acceptable here, or do you prefer to go with the more authentic German? As for "better fit", the source says "adequate representation", but when you read the details, it's a bit of a mystery. "...the Bach tradition plays a decisive role in the liturgical and Protestant context...The organ builder has to return to registers and timbres, who in the 18th century were finally popular or the stream once mentioned or that arose in its environment." Can you talk about something like in the hook? In other words, what exactly does it mean for the organ to be a "better fit"? Viriditas (talk) 06:34, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fehufanga:

In addition to the above, I also recommend shortening the hook so that Johann Sebastian Bach just reads "Bach". It's up to you. But I approve both ALT1 and ALT2. Viriditas (talk) 23:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems the English name is not consistent (Holy Trinity Church, Church of the Trinity, and Trinity Church are some variants I found), while the German name is always Dreieinigkeitskirche. As for the part about the Bach organ, I added clarification on how it was made to fit Bach's music.—*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 00:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

ALT1 and ALT2 are good to go. Viriditas (talk) 00:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

References

^ "This time I shall begin at once with Stein’s pianoforte. Before I had seen any of his make, [Franz Jakob] Späth’s claviers had always been my favorites." Pollens, Stewart (2022). A history of stringed keyboard instruments. Cambridge University Press. p. 387. ISBN 978-1-108-42199-7., "the instrument was not to his mind. It was a Flügel by Spath and in Bonn he is accustomed only to play upon one by Stein", "Junker's account suggests that Beethoven improvised on that very instrument in spite of his possible reservations. " Skowroneck, Tilman (2000). "The Keyboard Instruments of Young Beethoven". In Burnham, Scott; Steinberg, Michael P. (eds.). Beethoven and His World. Princeton University Press. p. 162–163. ISBN 9780691070735.
^ Ingerthron, Gabriele (6 June 2020). "Diese Orgel ist einzigartig". www.evangelisch.de (in German). Retrieved 8 January 2024.

[:0-1] "This time I shall begin at once with Stein’s pianoforte. Before I had seen any of his make, [Franz Jakob] Späth’s claviers had always been my favorites." Pollens, Stewart (2022). A history of stringed keyboard instruments. Cambridge University Press. p. 387. ISBN 978-1-108-42199-7., "the instrument was not to his mind. It was a Flügel by Spath and in Bonn he is accustomed only to play upon one by Stein", "Junker's account suggests that Beethoven improvised on that very instrument in spite of his possible reservations. " Skowroneck, Tilman (2000). "The Keyboard Instruments of Young Beethoven". In Burnham, Scott; Steinberg, Michael P. (eds.). Beethoven and His World. Princeton University Press. p. 162–163. ISBN 9780691070735.

[ingerthron-2] Ingerthron, Gabriele (6 June 2020). "Diese Orgel ist einzigartig". www.evangelisch.de (in German). Retrieved 8 January 2024.

[1]

[2]