Template:Did you know nominations/Girl with Peaches

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:17, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Girl with Peaches

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~~... that the girl with peaches (pictured) had to sit at the table posing for over a month? [1]~~
- ALT1 ... that Valentin Serov recalled torturing the girl with peaches (pictured) to death? [2]
- ALT2: ... that Russian President Vladimir Putin has seen the full version of the Girl with Peaches (pictured)? [3]
- ALT3 ... that the Girl with Peaches (pictured) spawned an Internet meme? [4]
- ALT4: ... that the girl with peaches (pictured) died at 32? [5]
- ALT5: ... that the girl with peaches (pictured) married the future Chief Prosecutor of the Most Holy Synod? [6]

Reviewed: Use of bayonets for crowd control.

Created/expanded by Moscow Connection (talk). Self-nominated at 00:00, 3 January 2017 (UTC).

re main hook - the Russian sources do not say that she had to sit at the table for a month. Serov recalls taking a month to paint the picture, which is by no means the same thing. Also the Russian source you give here for ALT1 does not support this alternative. I haven't checked the others, but please supply verifiable English language sources for whichever hook you use, otherwise I think this submission will be unacceptable.Smerus (talk) 08:14, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- Hi. Are you fluent in Russian as your user page suggests? Why English-language sources then? It is not by any means a requirement.
  A. Serov recalls taking a month to paint the picture, which is by no means the same thing.
  — The source I gave [7] explicitly states that she posed for the painting for almost two months, several hours per day. I didn't say it like that in the article because to me Serov's words (cited in the article already) meant the same thing. (Okay, that was how I understood it, but it is indid possible that she didn't sit at the table all the time. Unlikely, but possible. I will look into it.)
  B. Also the Russian source you give here for ALT1 does not support this alternative.
  —Serov jokingly said he "tortured [exhausted] her, poor thing, to death". Why can't it be used to support this hook?
  C. [8] and [9]
  — There are two sources in the article, both explicitly state it is Serov's most famous painting. Argumenty and Facty [10]: "Самая знаменитая его картина" ("His most famous painting") (Now I see it is a quote from a tweet, but it is repeated in the article's text as if it were a fact). ADME.ru: "самая знаменитая картина [...] Серова" ("Serov's [...] most famous painting"). And I must say the word "знаменитая" in Russian has a stronger, more emphatic meaning. It is closer to "famed", "renowned" , "celebrated". Anyway, it is Serov's most famous painting, clear and simple. Believe me. There can be no doubt whatsoever. I can find more sources.
  Anyway, you should AGF. Cause your words ("this submission will be unacceptable") sound like you think this nomination was done in bad faith. And it really upsets me. I will ask for help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia. (Just in case someone will really want to kill this nomination.)
  (This painting is very famous. That's why I decided to nominate it for DYK in the very last moment. It is probably more famous than 99% of the things that have been featured in the picture spot at DYK.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:32, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Please read carefully the rules about the hook which are clearly stated in WP:DYK

Cited hook – The fact(s) mentioned in the hook must be cited in the article.

Facts should have an inline citation. The article as a whole should use inline, cited sources.

The hook should include a definite fact that is mentioned in the article and interesting to a broad audience.

Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact. Citations at the end of the paragraph are not sufficient.

The fact that you disagree with my assessment does not excuse you from meeting the requirements of DYK (nor by the way does it entitle you to use disagreeable language about myself). "The fact(s) mentioned in the hook must be cited in the article". The sources which verify the hook should be valid, and should be the sources you use with the hook in the article itself. 'Argumenty i fakty' and the 'Vokrug sveta' website are not reliable secondary sources for information about fine art. I cannot accept these tertiary references, in a foreign language, which are not cited in the article itself, as justifying the hook(s). And indeed some of the material of the hooks is not stated as such in the article. The fact that a tweet is quoted in a website article does not give it citeable status. I believe that submissions to English WP DYK, and articles in English WP, should be supported by English language citations wherever possible - otherwise how can users be confident they are accurate? Your certainty that the picture is знаменитая is WP:OR; if it is really so famous you should be able to find an appropriate citation in English which says so. Perhaps you will find another reviewer who is less fastidious, but alas I try to stick by the rules. Всего доброго - Smerus (talk) 20:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

1. I've found this article [11] that says that "[у Веры] плохо получалось часами сидеть за столом в жару, не шевелясь". (Did she really have to sit there for hours absolutely motionless?)
Anyway, sorry if it sounded like I was going to leave the first hook in with the current source. You said it wasn't the same thing, and I agreed that the source didn't actually say she sat at the table the whole time. I said I'd look into it.
If you or anyone else is going to review this DYK, just forget about the first hook for now. I will strike it out cause I need some time to think about how I can rephrase it. And then I can always add it back as another alternative version.
2. The "most famous" thing is not mentioned in any of the hooks and never was. Let's talk about it on the article's talk page. It's not a big deal. But if you looked at the article's talk page, you'd see I that I had found a book that says the same thing about the painting being "the most famous". (I've searched only in Russian, I will search in English right now and see what I can find.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:15, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to be so long coming back - I have been travelling and am now in Tbilisi. I have taken the liberty of making a small alteration to ALT5 to conform with English colloquial usage. If you are happy with this I am prepared to recommend ALT5, which is IMO the most interesting one, as good to go.

Article meets timing criteria, is long enough and neutral. Acceptably clear of crude paraphrasing. Hook ALT5 is acceptable length and verified by source (in Russian). QPQ undertaken. ALT5 is good to go.Smerus (talk) 11:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:37, 30 January 2017 (UTC)