Template:Did you know nominations/Goldberg Variations (play)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vincent^LUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 06:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Goldberg Variations (play)

(

)

George Tabori in the 1980s

... that George Tabori (pictured) directed the premiere of his play Die Goldberg-Variationen in Vienna in 1991, presenting biblical conflicts between Mr. Jay and Goldberg as a surrealistic farce? Source: several

Reviewed: Roger Norman Sainsbury
Comment: much more should be said but how, - wordsmiths welcome

Created by Ipigott (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 13:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC).

General eligibility:
New enough:
Long enough:
Other problems: - The hook fact (about biblical conflicts being presented as "surrealist") is not mentioned in the article; indeed, the phrase used in the article is "a satirical combination of seriousness and farce"

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing:
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
Other problems:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting:
Other problems:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: AGF for German-language sources. The contradiction between the hook and the article needs to be resolved before I approve this. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:51, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd love to use the wording from the article but it's too long. The exact quote from the cited book [1] is also too long: "... a montage of jokes, surrealistic comedy, farce and obscene slapstick humor", so I thought "surrealistic farce" was a valid short version. Do you think the quote needs to be in the article? Seems a bit undue weight to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

If it's a quote about reception or discussing the play's themes, all the more should the quote be in the article. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 23:07, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

To make the hook tighter, how about this wording?

ALT1:~~... that George Tabori's (pictured) play Die Goldberg-Variationen presents biblical conflicts between the characters Mr. Jay and Goldberg as "a satirical combination of seriousness and farce"?~~

Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 23:09, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion, on which we can build. I don't like beginning with a possessive, then pictured, and finally the link we want readers to click. While that is just beauty, the phrase "biblical conflicts between the characters Mr. Jay and Goldberg" is so wrong that I wonder what we did wrong in the article. The biblical conflicts are staged by the character, a director and his assistant, and there are conflicts on other levels than the biblical plot of the play in the play. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:40, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

ps: Also, I miss Tabori as the director of the premiere. A director staging (himself?) a God-like creator ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Do you have an alternate wording in mind? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 10:52, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

No. At the airplane, flight called. Feel free. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:03, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: It's been two weeks. Please propose a new hook as I'm afraid the currently proposed hook is undesirable. I very much like the hook facts presented, it just needs to be reworded in a more concise way (meaning, direct to the point), while also not contradicting the article text. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:12, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I was waiting for you, because - see above - I said I had no alternative in mind. This is quite low on my priority scale, getting close to Christmas, it's not a topic I'm familiar with, and I am no wordsmith in English. Dr. Blofeld? Ipigott? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:49, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

ALT2: ... that in Die Goldberg-Variationen, a satirical play by George Tabori ~~who staged the premiere in Vienna in 1991~~, biblical scenes are staged by Mr. Jay and Goldberg with conflicts on many levels?

ALT3: ~~... that in George Tabori's play Die Goldberg-Variationen, biblical scenes are satirically presented as a series of disasters?~~--Ipigott (talk) 08:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I kind of like ALT3, but the hook fact isn't mentioned in the plot section. Granted this is not exactly a problem, except that it makes the plot section look really short by comparison. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 10:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

A true plot of the play in the play would be complex, and I don't see a source for it, other than the play itself - which I don't have. I think ALT3 is overly simple, but won't protest. I am busy these days, real life, and updating articles related to Christmas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

@Ipigott and Gerda Arendt: Any updates? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 13:37, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5 Gerda Arendt: I think we should just withdraw this DYK. It's simply not worth the effort. I understand why fewer and fewer experienced editors are no longer participating in DYK. But I leave it up to you, Gerda.--Ipigott (talk) 15:03, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

We could also ask for another set of eyes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:18, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

This article is new enough and long enough. The image is appropriately licensed. Going with ALT2 which is cited inline, but removing part of the hook as unnecessary. The article is neutral and I detected no policy issues. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

The page is at Goldberg Variations (play). Why are we using the German title? Though I came by to promote this, ALT2 is vague rather than hooky. Gerda, do you want me to help with a hook, or do you want to suggest something that will catch the reader's eye? Yoninah (talk) 00:32, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I'd like you to help. We use the German because it premiered in German which is unusual for a Hungarian author. I'd also think that it is played much more often in German than any other language - but perhaps you can find any production in UK or US, I tried. Thirdly, Bach's composition is so well known that it might confuse readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I added more from the sources and think that Ipigott's ALT3 would work well now. We don't have to mention the play name at all if you prefer. Here is what I suggest:
ALT4: ~~... that in George Tabori's play within a play, biblical scenes are satirically presented as a series of disasters?~~ Yoninah (talk) 15:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'd want to name the play, because the quotation of something classical says something about its style. Sorry, I forgot that the article was moved. I don't think it was a good idea but have more important thinks to pursue.

ALT5: ... that George Tabori (pictured) wrote Goldberg Variations as a play within a play, presenting biblical scenes satirically as a series of disasters? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. We just need someone to verify the "play within a play" part and ALT5 is ready to go. Pinging Cwmhiraeth. Yoninah (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Approving ALT5. I think that a "play within a play" is a reasonable description of the work. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2019 (UTC)