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Template:Did you know nominations/Gott ist gegenwärtig

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

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Gott ist gegenwärtig

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1878 print from a Philadelphia hymnal
1878 print from a Philadelphia hymnal
  • Reviewed: Epiricania melanoleuca 2nd article
  • Comment: Sorry, I'm a day late. - The hook is first of a all a translation (would be "God is present").

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC).

  • Comment: The hook is lost in translation. Instead of "reflected", we would say, perhaps "rendered" or more archaically but comfortably digestible, "intoned". ~ R.T.G 23:17, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The term "a community" is not clear. I propose:
ALT1 ... that in the Christian hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (pictured) by Gerhard Tersteegen, the presence of God is regarded from the perspective of the congregation and then the individual? Jmar67 (talk) 03:38, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Much better o/ ~ R.T.G 04:05, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Can you explain to me please what "regarding he presence of God" would mean here. The author simple states it as given. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
In the sense of "contemplating", "reflecting on". I see now that your hook should probably read "is first reflected on by...". That did not occur to me earlier. Jmar67 (talk) 11:40, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Can you please word that as a hook ready to be checked and then used?
ALT2: ... that in the Christian hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (pictured), Gerhard Tersteegen first states that God is present? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I updated your original hook as I suggested but prefer mine (ALT1). If ALT1 is approved, I will update the article accordingly with the same wording. Jmar67 (talk) 20:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
The Marti link is broken. Jmar67 (talk) 20:19, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I fixed the Marti link, and added a few page numbers. Do you mean ALT1, saying "mine"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
ALT3: ... that Gerhard Tersteegen's Christian hymn Gott ist gegenwärtig reflects on the presence of God, first as remembered by a community, then the individual singer? ~ R.T.G 06:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the offer, but I see a great contrast in "present" and "remembered". For the poet, God is present, which - repeating - avoids a translation of the title in brackets. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:47, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
My apology, the article says about it, "Tersteegen's original title for the hymn was "Erinnerung der herrlichen und lieblichen Gegenwart Gottes", meaning remembrance of the glorious and lovely presence..." More alternatives...
ALT4: ... that Gerhard Tersteegen's Christian hymn Gott ist gegenwärtig (pictured) portrays reflections on the presence of God from the perspective of a community and from the perspective of an individual singer? ~ R.T.G 17:03, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
ALT4a: ... that Tersteegen's hymn Gott ist gegenwärtig (pictured) portrays reflections on the presence of God from the perspective of a congregation and from the perspective of an individual singer? --evrik (talk) 22:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that Gerhard Tersteegen's 250th birthday this year was celebrated with a cantata based on his hymn, Gott ist gegenwärtig (pictured), which portrays the presence of God through reflection? ~ R.T.G 17:03, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm afraid that "Erinnerung" doesn't mean "remembrance" in this context (in older language) but what today would be called "Verinnerlichung", possibly being rendered as "making oneself aware", my translator says "internalisation", "innerisation" and some others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:46, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
They are your words, Gerda, quoted from the article to show you my reasoning. ~ R.T.G 18:37, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry for too quick a translation. Please help me, what would be the best word? Perhaps Moonraker could help, my expert for idiomatic translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:38, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Possibly a "reminiscence" but best a speaker of these languages explains. The words probably have slightly different meanings. ~ R.T.G 20:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
ALT6 ... that in the Christian hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (pictured) by Gerhard Tersteegen, the congregation and then the individual are made aware of the presence of God. Jmar67 (talk) 00:52, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you, and best so far. Perhaps more ideas after singing Magnificat in a service ;) - please add "aware" to article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:01, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
ALT7 ... that Tersteegen's hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (pictured), describes a growing awareness of the divine, first by the congregation, then by the individual. --evrik (talk) 16:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
ALT7a ... that Tersteegen's hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (pictured), describes the awareness of God first by the congregation, then by the individual.
Well, thank you for that offer, but I think that divine is not mentioned in the article, also that awareness by one may be growth from awareness of many looks like original research. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
I redid 7 with 7a, using the word God, though I thought about "Majestic being" I redid the second portion of the sentence as well. --evrik (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Better, but "described" is the wrong word for something like mystic union, - too distant. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:18, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
ALT8 ... that in Tersteegen's hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (pictured), the presence of God is first reflected on by a community, then by the individual singer? --evrik (talk) 18:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Well, not really, - all reflection is by the poet, just in the first 3 stanzas he speaks in the first person plural, then - more individually - in the first person singular. But that's what the very first hook said.
  • {{DYKtick}}Alt4 is good with me. I've stricken my other suggestions. --evrik (talk) 23:05, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
"Community" is not the right translation of "Gemeinde" here and will cause confusion. See ALT1 and ALT6. Jmar67 (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
  • @Jmar67: I edited Alt4a. If that version is acceptable to you, then I suggest you approve it. --evrik (talk) 03:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I am sorry, English is not my first language, could someone please tell me what (from ALT4) "portrays reflections on the presence of God" is supposed to mean? I know "to portray" from depicting a person in an image or on screen, not reflections. Also, if a link for God it should go to God in Christianity. KISS? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
  • You are correct that to portray is to depict. In this case, the hymn describes (or portrays) the prayers or meditations (reflections) on God's presence. --evrik (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you, good idea, but choir rehearsal now, - will word something afterwards. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:34, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I offer 9a as 9 with some tweaking. --evrik (talk) 20:42, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I said I'll be back, no?
ALT10: ... that a cantata titled God is Now, based on the hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" and scored for choir, big band, organ and live electronics, was premiered on its authors's 250th anniversary of death? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
  • , sorry, you can't approve your own hook. Also: I find "reflects on various perspectives of God" vague.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Alt 9 was created by RTG. It’s not mine. I did tweak the language and offered that as a improved version in 9A. That however it was for the promoter to look at and it is not the one I approved. --evrik (talk) 16:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
sigh, what in "I find 'reflects on various perspectives of God' vague" is hard to understand? It's not in the article. Presence of God is, and mystic union, not "various perspectives" which all hymns seem to offer, - nothing specific about this one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:12, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
  • While it may be vague, I think it encapsulates a lot of what we’ve discussed in the previous portions of this process. Which one do you think is the best? if I agree I will approve it. Actually my favorite was 4 a, but I can’t approve that one. Really, the word smithing on some of this is what has kept this from going forward. --evrik (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Reflection is like a review of situations or events. The song does reflect on the presence of God. It is even called "God is here". It is definitely reflecting on whether God is there or not. ~ R.T.G 20:24, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Alt4 and Alt9 are both acceptable. I leave Alt4a and Alt9a as wordsmithed alternatives of my own creation for the promoter. --evrik (talk) 18:58, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, they both are not supported by the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
Both 4 & 9 are supported by the article, at least as a read English they do. Striking 10 as not as good as 4 or 9. @Yoninah:, do you mind giving an opinion? --evrik (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
If you find that "reflects on various perspectives of God" is supported by the article, I - author of said article - failed miserably. What I miss most in both ALT4 and ALT9 is a translation of "gegenwärtig" (present). We have only three words in the title, - how can we leave the reader without representing them? - "God is Now" from ALT10 does exactly that, and not only that, it also "plays" in the presence. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:12, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
Would you be happy with Alt6? --evrik (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
No. I'd be happy with ALT10. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, but #10 is not good. I pinged Yoninah for an outside opinion. --evrik (talk) 22:26, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
You asked me if something would make me happy. I remembered one, and couldn't find it. See why? So, for a new reviewer:
  • ALT11 = the former ALT9: ... that Gerhard Tersteegen begins the hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (print pictured) with the statement that God is present? [2](--Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:50, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT11a ... that Gerhard Tersteegen begins the hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (print pictured) with the statement that God Himself is with us? "Gott ist gegenwärtig" [God Himself is with us]. Lyrics translate. Retrieved 2019-12-02.
  • Alt 11 approved. --evrik (talk) 00:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Coming to promote this, I am unable to find a cited sentence stating the ALT11 hook facts. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:13, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
  • This is just a translation of the three words in German to the three words in English. The hymn possibly never translated other than by us, but you can ask any translation program. It would normally be in brackets, which would be clumsy, no. Would be a boring ... "Gott ist gegenwärtig" (print pictured) (God is present) is a hymn by Gerhard Tersteegen? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
  • @Cwmhiraeth:There is also this translation: "Gott ist gegenwärtig" [God reveals his presence]. The Canterbury Dictionary of Hymnology. Canterbury Press. Retrieved 2019-12-12.. --evrik (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
That is not a translation, but an attempt to match the number of notes and stresses of the melody in a singable version. In German it would be "Gott offenbart seine Gegenwart", which is a completely different thing from the simple "ist" (is). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:53, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for that find, will add to the article. The other, "Lo, God is here", comes much closer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: So, what is your Alt 12 then? --evrik (talk) 00:53, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
ALT11 is good for me, as explained. You can word something about the impossibility of translating it with the same metre, 6 syllables vs. 4, and the stress on the 5th. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I think I had better just replace the tick and retire from the fray. The DYK rules state that hook facts should have inline citations but that is not the case here, there is no citation for the hook facts. But I don't want to stand in the way of this going forward and maybe someone else will promote it. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:21, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
Cwmhiraeth, how about you approving ALT10? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT10a: ... that a cantata titled God is Now, based on the hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" and scored for choir, big band, organ and live electronics, was premiered on the 250th anniversary of its author's death?
  • Approving ALT10a which reads better than ALT10. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:56, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Reading ALT10 again, it was perhaps too ambiguos about who "its author" is, author of the cantata or the hymn, - but may be wrong. Anyway, offering:
ALT10b: ... that a cantata titled God is Now, based on the hymn "Gott ist gegenwärtig" and scored for choir, big band, organ and live electronics, was premiered on the 250th anniversary of the hymnwriter's death? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Approving ALT10b, and leaving the choice of hook to the promoter. --evrik (talk) 15:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, and added a "citation needed" tag to a fact that needs it. ALT10b is a good hook, but the words "big band, mixed choir, pipe organ and live electronics" in the article is lifted directly from the German translation. Rather than put these words in quotes in the hook, perhaps you could replace these terms with Wikipedia article names. Yoninah (talk) 21:00, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
The scoring for a piece is almost like a name, and it is given in a specific order (first voices), so can't be changed. In a Bach cantata, it wouldn't be in quotation marks, so why would it be here? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
  • @Gerda Arendt: OK. (Tell that to the source.) What about a cite for the original title? Yoninah (talk) 21:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, not sure which "original title"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Last page of Marti ref added. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you! Can't wait to move this long discussion off the noms page and into a prep! Yoninah (talk) 22:30, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
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