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Template:Did you know nominations/Gypsy sauce

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by North America1000 21:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Withdrawn. I have merged this to À la zingara. Despite whether or not gypsy sauce is derived from à la zingara, the topics are very similar in nature. North America1000 21:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

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Gypsy sauce

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  • ... that German food companies were asked by a group representing Romani and Sinti peoples to rename commercial brands of gypsy sauce, stating that the term "gypsy" is offensive?

Created by Northamerica1000 (talk). Self-nominated at 09:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC).

  • There is no evidence, as far as I can see, that this is a German sauce. It exists in Germany, the Netherlands, but also France and Italy (as Sauce Zingara) and is closely related to À la zingara. See e.g. this. Perhaps merge to À la zingara would be a better idea? Fram (talk) 10:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Fram: I have removed the phrase "German sauce" from the lead. Note that the sources found and used refer to this specific sauce, and no sources mention à la zingara or the ingredients in à la zingara (Google Books search, Google News search). Furthermore, additional searches (Google Books, Google News) are not correlating these topics. It is virtually certain that they are distinct topics. As such, I am opposed to the merge you suggest above. Regarding the link you provided above, I ifood.tv is not a reliable source per Wikipedia's standards, because it consists of user-generated content. North America1000 10:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Even according to the German Wikipedia article on à la Zingara[1], Zigeuner sauce is derived from it. The same in the German article on Zigeuner Sauce[2].
  • The merge isn't important though, the important thing is that the article should discuss Zigeuner Sauce for what it is, a sauce found in many countries, with different names, and different ingredients (check e.g. this recipe with is much closer to the "A la Zingara") In this book the description of Zingara sauce is almost exactly the description of A la Zingara. Fram (talk) 11:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • None of the sources about zigeuner sauce include information about the ingredients in à la zingara (e.g. chopped ham, tongue, mushrooms, truffles, tarragon, madeira), with the only similarity being that the former uses tomato paste, while the latter uses tomato sauce. The Pdf file you provided above makes no mention of this topic, only mentioning the term "à la zingara" once. The book source you provided above is about Zingara sauce, a different topic than zigeuner sauce, which again, uses none of the same ingredients (e.g. ham, tongue, mushrooms, truffles). North America1000 11:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • ? Zigeuner sauce = Zingara sauce. Fram (talk) 11:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Note how one of the sources you used, [3] explicitly mentions that the sauce is already present in the 1903 Escoiffier. Now, that book has no Zigeuner sauce, but it has Zingara, which it says is an old French sauce (considering the chauvinism of the French, this may be incorrect of course).
  • See also this recent German book, which makes it clear that there is the commercial Zigeuner-Sauce, which is in fact "Zigeunerketchup" and originally comes from Hungary, and then there is the "real", original Zigeunersauce. Nothing of this can be seen in your article (and isn't easy to adequately explain and source, mind you). It's simply a surprisingly complicated topic. Fram (talk) 12:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Take this; perhaps not reliable for the article, but a clear indication that the "à la Zingara" is often considered to be the "original Zigeunersauce", even in Germany, as it is described here as well with truffles, meat, ... Fram (talk) 12:16, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Fram: Regarding the notion of article expansion, sure, that's a great idea. However, this is not necessary for DYK purposes as per WP:DYKNOT, where it states, "DYK is not: ..." " Articles must meet the basic criteria set out on this page but do not have to be of very high quality. It is fine for articles to be incomplete (though not unfinished), to have red links, to be capable of being expanded or improved further, and so on". North America1000 11:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • "There is a reasonable expectation that an article—even a short one—that is to appear on the front page should appear to be complete and not some sort of work in progress. Therefore, articles which include unexpanded headers are likely to be rejected. Articles that fail to deal adequately with the topic are also likely to be rejected." WP:DYKSG, my emphasis. An article which doesn't include the other names and only has attention for Germany is not adequately dealing with the topic. Fram (talk) 11:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Found it, a reliable (German!) source equating Zingara and Zigeuner Sauce, and using the recipe with truffles and ham[4]. Fram (talk) 12:21, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Same recipe: "Zigeunersauce: eine pikante Sauce aus in heißer Butter angeschwitzten Zwiebeln mit Tomatenscheiben, Paprika, Pfeffer, Weißwein, in Streifen geschnittener geräucherter Zunge, Schinken, Champignons, Trüffeln "Book about Austrian cuisine Fram (talk) 12:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Third and final example, "Die mit Paprika und Tomaten angerührte Zigeunersoße der Fast- foodindustrie unterscheidet sich erheblich von den Schlemmereien ä la zingara vergangener Zeiten, bei denen zu dieser Zubereitungsart Trüffeln gehörten"[5] agan gives the distinction between two types of Zigeunersauce, indicates that the original one is the same as "à la zingara", and includes truffles. An article that doesn't touch on these aspects is really not ready for DYK. Fram (talk) 12:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • It's getting better, but: shouldn't the page be at Gypsy sauce instead? There is no obvious reason why a page on an international sauce, which has an English name, should be at the German name. Contentwise: everything is still written from that German perspective, nothing indicating that this sauce exists in France, Netherlands, Italy, and so on. The whole controversy section is also rather WP:UNDUE, by far the largest part of the article on a sauce used for 100+ years in many countries and at least two variations is now spent on a controversy that lived for a few years in one country only. Fram (talk) 13:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Fram: I have renamed the article and expanded the article to include information about cuisines that use the sauce. However, I was unable to find any coverage in reliable sources equating the sauce with the Netherlands/Dutch cuisine or Italy/Italian cuisine as you have suggested above. Source search examples include [6], [7], [8]], [9], [10], [11]. Additionally, this search under ""gypsy sauce" italy" is returning results regarding mostly about Germany and the group of Roma protesters. The same goes for this search under ""gypsy sauce" Austria" and this search. I think you are overstepping boundaries a bit as per WP:DYKNOT with suggestions about additions to the article that are not readily covered in reliable sources. Please consider first performing source searches to confirm that sources actually exist about such proposals. Very deep source searches could eventually find mentions of the sauce used in various countries such as those you have suggested above, but such mentions do not necessarily equate existence of the sauce with overall usage in the countries' respective cuisines. For example, this book states that the sauce was used at a restaurant in Greece, but this does not mean that it's a significant part of Greek cuisine. The Name controversy section is included because it has received significant coverage in reliable sources, which Wikipedia content is based upon. As such, I don't feel that it has undue weight in the article, because it's a significant aspect of the overall topic. Many of the reliable sources about this topic are about this very matter. Omission of the content would unnecessarily make the article less educational for Wikipedia's readers. North America1000 13:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
    If I can jump in--I think Dutch cuisine should be added also since, as Fram correctly points out, it's found there as well. In fact, it's hugely popular in the motherland (but if I had to guess I'd say we got it from the Germans). The "controversy" reached NL as well ([12], [13], [14]), but I agree with Fram that the article is very unbalanced right now and needs either expansion or cutting (in that section--down to a sentence or two). Of course it's based on reliable sources, but it's still undue, given that we don't have a history for the sauce, for instance--a history which is at least a century old. Note also that the whole thing seems to have been a storm in a teacup (at least from the manufacturers' point of view), a storm that lasted only for the month of August 2013: I have corrected two dates that were erroneous and suggested it was still a happening thing in 2016 (that "working paper" from the European Centre for Minority Issues mentions it only once, in one sentence, as a news story). Drmies (talk) 14:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: I have reduced the length of the section. North America1000 15:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: Thanks for the links, but none of them qualify that the sauce is a significant part of Dutch cuisine. The articles are just news in Dutch sources about what occurred in Germany. I'd be fine adding the notion of it being a part of Dutch cuisine to the article, if a reliable source can be found that states such. North America1000 15:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Google doesn't let me make the case easily (but here's a search for things before the "controversy"). The three news links weren't meant to prove that it is important in Dutch cuisine, of course. Finding reliable sources on Dutch cooking is a notoriously difficult thing to do given the paucity of book sources in Dutch, but if I find one I'll let you know. I appreciate the trimming; thanks. Drmies (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: I used one of your sources to add in the article that Remia mass-produces the product. North America1000 16:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: Sure, a history section would be a great addition to Gypsy sauce, but there's scant coverage about it in reliable sources to enable doing so. North America1000 16:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

If you are trying to write an article about which you clearly know next to nothing and aren't able to find the sources, perhaps it's time to drop the subject and move on to something else? Gypsy sauce in Italy is Salsa Zingara or Salsa alla Zingara, the recipe (including truffles and ham) can e.g. be found in this book This is a Flemish recipe for Zigeunersaus (from a TV chef on the TV website, not some random blog), this is evidence that it is for sale at Dutch major retailer Albert Heijn. Dutch companies sell "Zigeunersaus" as Gypsy sauce to the UK. Fram (talk) 14:24, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Fram, see the beans in that Allerhande recipe? They're Flat beans--I can't find them in the US. Fresh, they are absolutely delicious. Drmies (talk) 14:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • None of the sources you provide suggest that the sauce is a significant part of the cuisine in the respective countries. The link you provided above about Salsa Zingara (content here) is simply a recipe in a general book about sauces and gravies. This source search is also not qualifying the stance, nor are these: [15], [16]. Information about the sauce being published in a specific language does not equate to it being a part of the overall cuisine of the country. The same goes for this link, it's just a recipe, and provides no evidence that it's a part of the cuisine of Belgium. Additional searches are also not providing qualification: [17], [18], [19], [20]. As I stated above, such mentions do not necessarily equate existence of the sauce with overall usage in the countries' respective cuisines. The article does not need to become a directory of every place on the planet where the sauce can be found to exist. The same goes for this link; just a recipe with no indication of being a part of the country's overall cuisine. This link is already used in the article, which mentions that Verstegen mass-produces the sauce. Sorry, but I'm becoming weary of spending my time source searching to research your theories about this topic only for them to be subsequently disproven, and then spending more time explaining matters to you on this page; perhaps another reviewer should continue, basing the nomination upon the general DYK rules, rather than WP:DYKNOT nitpicking. You have not addressed any of the actual DYK rules at this time except for one supplementary rule. You state that I "clearly know next to nothing" about the topic, but the sources you have provided suggest that this applies only to yourself. North America1000 15:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I added a mention of Escoffier to the article.
  • I added the following: "The simpler preparation of the sauce may have derived from the more complex à la zingara sauce". From what I can see in the meager snippet view, the source suggests this, but does not plainly state that the sauce originates from à la zingara.
  • This source you provided about the recent German book above is not reliable. It is self-published (see here), rather than published by an established reputable publisher (no offense to the book's author). North America1000 18:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • The German Wikipedia article for À la zingara states that zigeunersauce is derived from à la zingara, but I'm unable to access the offline source used in the article verifying this. The same goes for the Zigeunersauce article there; cannot access the sources. Additional searches have not proven fruitful to verify this. North America1000 20:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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