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Template:Did you know nominations/Kyiv National Academic Molodyy Theatre

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

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Kyiv National Academic Molodyy Theatre

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5x expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk) and Grimes2 (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 19:42, 30 March 2022 (UTC).

I'll be honest, the hook is kinda meh. I'm not really sure if the foundation date is necessary, and while I find the "young in mind" part to be cute, it really isn't a spectacular hook fact. Can something else be proposed here? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:41, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

This is kind of an insider correction. Did you know that for as long as this theatre's article existed on Wikipedia (2010 or so) it was labelled a youth theatre, as if playing for young audiences? Probably a translation error. It is not, it was Young Theatre in the sense of progressive, advanced, experimental. Young in mind is a good wording for that, imho. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
I honestly don't see how any of that addresses my main concern that the hook as currently written isn't really interesting to a broad audience. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:51, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
@Grimes2: Sorry but I really don't think either hook appeals to a broad audience either. Both of them sound rather run-of-the-mill and vague. If I may give a suggestion, I think a hook based on this quote From 1985 to the present day, the theatre is based at a mansion on Prorizna Street,[3] which formerly served as an apartment building, an officers' club, the Young Theater of Les Kurbas, and the cinema "Komsomolets of Ukraine". has more promise than any hook about the international projects or the "young in mind" quote. To me at least, I thought it was interesting that a theatre building used to be a mansion and an apartment building. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 19:50, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT2 ... that the Kyiv National Academic Molodyy Theatre, member of the European Theatre Convention, is based at a mansion, that former served as an officer's club, an apartment building and a cinema? Grimes2 (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
    Personally I'd just reword it as ALT2a ... that the mansion that houses the Molodyy Theatre previously served as an apartment building, an officer's club, and a cinema? I used the shorter name to make the hook more concise, but using the longer name would also be fine if hook length allows for it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 20:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
    (ec) Thank you for the offers. I am no friend of ALT2 and variant, - we have so little room, why say what their building was before, instead of what they are now?? - We don't have to appeal (say something quirky), just say something interesting which I understand as good to know, - not the same. If that direction, say that they use the same building as the legendary short-lived first theatre of the same name by the legendary Les Kurbas, - but again: I'd like to say what they are, not what others were before.
    What I came for was saying that I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Barrie R. Cassileth. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT2b ... that the mansion that houses the Kyiv National Academic Molodyy Theatre previously served as an apartment building, an officers' club, the first theatre by Les Kurbas and a cinema? Sorry, Gerda! Grimes2 (talk) 21:28, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Comment: Kyiv/Ukraine should be mentioned, Les Kurbas was a prominent figure in Ukraine, "young in mind" sounds like a slogan by the theatre. Grimes2 (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't think Ukraine must be mentioned.Whoever hasn't heard where Kyiv is will not need the article. I just said above that Kurbas was legendary, and mentioning him is fine, but really fail to see what a former use as officer's club adds to understanding the theatre. April Fool is past. Sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
I think the illustrious history of the building is an interesting hook. Maybe replace "officers' club" by "Kyiv House of the Red Army" or "Red Army house". Grimes2 (talk) 22:06, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
(ec) I prefer Europe to officers:
Molodyy Theatre
Molodyy Theatre
ALT3: ... that the Molodyy Theatre (Young Theatre) in Kyiv, a member of the European Theatre Convention, uses the same mansion (pictured) as the first theatre of the name, founded by Les Kurbas? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Support ALT3. Grimes2 (talk) 22:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
I think ALT2b is still a better wording. I don't really think the mention of the Convention is necessary for hookiness purposes and the wording of ALT3 is still a bit clunky. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:05, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
European has a political meaning: The theatre is west-orientated. Grimes2 (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
I think the main issue with ALT3 and its variants is that there isn't even an article for the Convention. DYK guidelines discourage red links or mentioning people or organizations without articles. Unless one is made (and perhaps expanded to meet DYK requirements) it's probably a better option to just drop the idea of including the Convention in the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:34, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Kurbas first theatre is gone long ago, better: "as previously Kurbas's short-living 1917 theatre", Convention article needs to be written and can be translated from German wiki. Grimes2 (talk) 11:06, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
The Convention article will be written (or I would not have linked it). We don't need more details about the first theatre, - If absolutely needed, "1916" might do. Patience please. I have three articles to write today - vs. my normal one - so will take until tomorrow, or Grimes2 perhaps ...? I wish LouisAlain was here to help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:48, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
ALT3b is misleading, because Kurbas's theatre could still exist now, playing parallel in the same house. Grimes2 (talk) 12:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
please keep simple - quite unlikely under the same name - we don't have to say "it all" in hooks --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:33, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
European Theatre Convention translation: member theatre part on my sandbox User:Grimes2/sandbox Grimes2 (talk) 13:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Okay, so now we have an article on the convention. However, unless the convention article can be brought to DYK standards, I really don't think its mention is necessary for the hook. The main focus is that the building had prior use, the convention part distracts from that. As a possible compromise, if Gerda or Grimes2 is willing to bring the convention article to DYK standards, the convention mention could work as a second bolded link. In any case, I'm still not fond of either ALT3a or ALT3b since it seems to be reliant on knowledge of Kurbas. Some version of ALT2b is probably preferable since the hookiness isn't reliant on the mention of him. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:43, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
(In reply to Grimes2's deleted comment): I meant to say that one option to allow the convention to be mentioned in the hook was to expand the convention's article to meet DYK requirements (if it isn't already) so that it can be added to the nomination as a second bolded link. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
I usually prefer to give each their own DYK. Haven't yet looked, but will today. No distraction from the theatre please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:57, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
The former theatre isn't a focus on trivial "former uses" but a hint at a tradition, and the European aspect is absolutely wanted. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
User:Narutolovehinata5: The convention is in prep already, and this still waiting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
I still think ALT2b is the best option here, I don't really think the mention of the convention is necessary. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Define necessary. Saying that Ukraine is European can't be repeated too much, and mentioning (Russian) officers reads like a bad joke to me. Please consider. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't really see how it being a member of the convention adds to the appeal of the hook. To me the interesting thing is the history of the building, not that the theater is part of a European convention. The convention part may likely fly over readers' minds if the goal was to say that the theater being part of a European convention shows that Ukraine has been linked to Europe even in theater matters. Plus, I don't understand the "mentioning (Russian) officers" thing as neither the hook nor the article makes any mention of Russians at all. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
to end circles. You (new reviewer) don't have to read all this, but just see if you can approve ALT3b. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
I am offering to make a new start here. I'm taking the article review as completed. I'm taking the hooks review as up for grabs. I think we need to start again from scratch with the hooks - the reason being that ALT0 (foundation date and "young") were rejected as unsatisfactory; also that ALTs 1-3 all dwelt on past uses of the building, which tells us nothing about the theatre itself. So let's start again with the hooks.
I think that we need a hook which tells us what has been performed there, who has performed there, or anything about the performances there. After all, that is what the theatre is about. Now hold on to your hat, because there is no way that we can avoid tripping up on our own political propaganda here. We have to remember that for many generations, many people from Ukraine have had ancestors or relatives in Russia and still do, and many people from Ukraine have relatives in Russia and still do. I have in the past been involved with histories of individual Russian musicians and their existing families, and with histories of individual Ukrainian musicians and their families (especially the Ukrainians Sergeev and Gres). After serving in the Red Army Choir and the Boilshoi Theatre, the tenor Nic Gres returned to Ukraine to die. His family, who were poor, had no recordings of his music. His living descendants had never heard him sing. So I had a DVD sent from the US to the family in Ukraine, and they wrote to tell me how all the neighbours had gathered in one local house which had a DVD player, listened to Gres sing (this song), and cried. The Red Army Choir always supported the Revolution, but also always undermined it in many ways, for example, they had Sergeev singing this This is why I have been quiet so far regarding current propaganda from both sides. Yes, I agree absolutely with WP's representation of news about the war. And yes I agree absolutely that Russian government propaganda as given to its own people on TV has been unforgiveable. But the complex relationship between the ordinary populations of both countries remains, and both propagandas have made outsiders forget that. Outsiders have also forgotten that dead Russian musicians were not involved in the current war situation, and that those Russian musicians who died recently enough may have objected to the Russian government's behaviour. So as far as music is concerned, I believe that it's impossible to disentangle Ukraine and Russia from each other. Forgive me for writing so much about this, but if I don't tell you where I'm coming from, you won't understand my suggestion for hooks about productions in the Molodyy Theatre, which will inevitably involve mention of Russians and Ukrainians together in one sentence.
So here we go, with my suggestions for hooks which tell you about what sort of theatre it is. Boris Zakhoder's first performance of his Alice in Wonderland was staged at the theatre, in its early days. Recently, the theatre has staged performance of Chekhov, Ibsen, Shakespeare, Vasily Sigarev and Eduard Volodarsky. The theatre's performance style has included advanced, progressive projects, including unusual performance spaces and open-air. Maybe you can pick and choose something which accords with what you feel is right for us to say here and now. But I do think we can be a little less frightened than we have been in the West, about which musicians we are allowed to include. Storye book (talk) 14:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT4a: ... that Kyiv's Molodyy Theatre cancels all performances of works by Russian authors Tolstoy, Dostoevsky and Chekhov? Source: [2] Grimes2 (talk) 15:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
  • (Edit conflict)
  • On second thoughts, although I still stand by what I have said above, I think that I unfairly ignored the request for a review of ALT3b. It has no issues, and its facts are properly cited in the article. I should not have railroaded across it. My issue was that I felt that its subject matter had helped derail any final agreement on this template. So I'll give it the green tick that it deserves (update: that was removed due to discussion below). However, if the discussion fails to reach agreement again, then please consider my suggestions for other hooks above. What matters now is that we agree on a hook. Thank you. Storye book (talk) 15:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Actually it was noted above by Grimes that ALT3b may be misleading given that it doesn't make it clear if Kurbas' theater is still extant or not. Given that the original theater was closed, if some variant of ALT3b has to be used, a wording change must be done to make it clear that Kurbas' theater is defunct. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:28, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
ALT3c ... that Kyiv's Molodyy Theatre, a member of the European Theatre Convention, is located in the same mansion (pictured) originally occupied by Les Kurbas's first theatre of the same name?
ALT3d ... that Kyiv's Molodyy Theatre is located in the same mansion (pictured) originally occupied by Les Kurbas's first theatre of the same name?
@Storye book and Grimes2: Would this wording solve the original concerns about clarity? I tried to make it clear that Kurbas's original theater no longer exists. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
  • (Edit conflict - twice)
  • @Grimes2: With respect to the the content of ALT4a, I cannot find any mention of it in the article, or any mention of it in the citation you give. As far as I can see, your citation only says that the writers on that page want institutions to stop showing Russian artworks in general (but without confirmation that they will all actually do so), and that the theatre has had to stop all productions for the time being. I would be happy to review the hook if you or Gerda could add it to the article with a citation which supports its wording. I believe that it's probably true, because that fact would make sense, but we need a clear citation for it, to use it as a hook (or have I missed something in that cittion?).
  • Bearing in mind that the discussion has now got snarled up again, I suggest that someone gives us a hook about past or fairly recent theatre productions as I suggested above? Back to square one, I think. Storye book (talk)
  • @Gerda Arendt: @Narutolovehinata5: I'm happy with ALT3c with image (183 characters) and ALT3d (137 char.), although I prefer ALT3c because it includes the European Theatre Convention, which tells us more about the actual theatre. I will give it the green tick if Gerda agrees, as nominator. (Update: Green tick added in response to comments below. I have removed the green tick from ALT3b above). Storye book (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
    ALT3c preferred --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
    ALT3c. Grimes2 (talk) 16:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
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