- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:39, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Lady Elizabeth Echlin
... that Lady Elizabeth Echlin published a revised ending to Samuel Richardson's classic novel Clarissa, and made a shell grotto with verses specially written by Richardson at Rush, County Dublin? Echlin [née Bellingham], Elizabeth, Lady Echlin". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/39722
- ALT1:
... that Lady Elizabeth Echlin, a correspondent of the author, published a revised ending to Samuel Richardson's Clarissa, in which the rape that was central to the original version is averted? Echlin [née B ellingham], Elizabeth, Lady Echlin". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/39722
- Reviewed: Exempt from QPQ, nominator has fewer than 5 prior DYK credits
- Comment:
Created by PamD (talk). Nominated by SeoR (talk)
Date and length of the article are OK. There are a few small issues in the article that need fixing (which I'll address later), but there is also a more substantive problem. The article misreads the sentence "...the rape fails, Clarissa recovers to live a single life, and Lovelace, wounded by James, becomes 'a cripple & a sincere penitent'" in Keymer. That sentence in Keymer refers to another possible alternate ending of Clarissa, planned by Lady Bradshaigh (Elizabeth Echlin's sister). The full sentence in the source makes this point clear: "Lady Bradshaigh herself ... plotted an alternate ending in which the rape fails, Clarissa recovers to live a single life, ..." The source later, still on p. 214, says: "But Lady Echlin went further, realising her desire for a more harmonious conclusion in a lengthy manuscript pastiche of Richardson's text. In it she accepts [...] But she changes the circumstances completely: the rape is removed, Clarissa dies of grief, ...". The "Oxford Dictionary of National Biography" source says basically the same thing about Echlin's alternate ending: "The novel's two protagonists still die, but Clarissa's rape is averted and Lovelace turns penitent". This issue needs to be fixed both in the article and in the hook(s). Pinging the article's creator here @PamD:, just in case. Thanks Nsk92 (talk) 11:31, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Many thanks, and I hope the article's creator won't mind if some initial corrective work is made.SeoR (talk) 12:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Oh dear, I feel mortified at my careless mis-quoting. Thanks for spotting the problem, @Nsk92:, and for working on it, @SeoR:. I often remind other editors to take more care over their edits (usually when they're linking to disambiguation pages etc) ... pots and kettles. PamD 14:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Nsk92, SeoR, PamD: I have made some edits to the article, including moving the article title to Elizabeth, Lady Echlin, per Baronet#Addressing_a_baronet_and_the_wife_of_a_baronet, which notes that "She would not be "Lady <Alice> <Bloggs>", a style reserved for the daughters of Dukes, Marquesses and Earls". I have also changed "published an alternative ending" to "wrote an alternative ending", as it's clear that she did not publish it.
- Nsk92, you mentioned some other issues that need fixing - would you be able to state them here, please, so that I or one of the other editors can work on them? Some other points that occur to me are including information from the ONDB that she was considered very religious and not part of fashionable society, and that Daphinoff, who published her ending, considered it of little merit, and Keymer (and according to him, Richardson) thought that Echlin's changes deprived the deaths of all meaning - and that Richardson "teased" her about her ending.
- I have edited the hooks to reflect the changes I have already made, and struck the original hooks (I prefer ALT0a, as it doesn't give away what her changes were, and does hint that she was in correspondence with Richardson):
- ALT0a: ... that Elizabeth, Lady Echlin wrote a revised ending to Samuel Richardson's classic novel Clarissa, and made a shell grotto with verses specially written by Richardson at Rush, County Dublin? Echlin [née Bellingham], Elizabeth, Lady Echlin". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/39722
- ALT1a: ... that Elizabeth, Lady Echlin, a correspondent of the author, wrote a revised ending to Samuel Richardson's Clarissa, in which the rape that was central to the original version is averted? Echlin [née Bellingham], Elizabeth, Lady Echlin". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/39722
- RebeccaGreen (talk) 06:50, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
- @RebeccaGreen:@SeoR:@PamD: Thank you for updating the article and the hooks. ALT1a looks pretty good, OK in terms of length, interesting and verified by a relevant citation in the hook supporting sentence in the article. I do have several questions/comments. First, can someone comment on why the article title was moved? The new page title looks a bit strange to me, in tersm of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people). Also, in the "Writings" section, the sentence "Her sister, Lady Bradshaigh, had previously published ..." is slightly problematic, specifically the "published" part. The source does not actually say "published" but rather "plotted", which to me suggests either having planned to write or having written, but I don't think it indicates having "published". (Perhaps some other sources clarify the matter further.)
Done (I have changed this to "written".) There is also an extraneous ( in "((c. 1710–c. 1779)" in the last sentence of the Personal life section. Done Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 11:25, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Nsk92, thanks for your reply, and mentioning the things that need addressing. I moved the article title because she was not Lady Elizabeth Echlin. PamD asked about it: Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(royalty_and_nobility)#Wives_of_baronets, where the answer was "Use "Elizabeth, Lady Echlin". The title meets all the criteria of Wikipedia:Article titles and Wikipedia should not perpetuate incorrect forms. "Lady Elizabeth Echlin" isn't the common name anyway". I pointed out there the similar situation with Diana, Princess of Wales (not "Princess Diana"). I hope that clarifies it. RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:53, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
- Marking edits as Done RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:14, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
- OK, very good, thanks. Everything looks in order now, and I'll approve the nomination once the QPQ is done. Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 12:24, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Nsk92, this appears to be SeoR's first DYK nomination, so they would not need a QPQ. Cheers, RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:35, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
OK, very good, thanks. I am approving Alt1a. Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 13:23, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
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Overall:
Approving ALT1a hook.
Nsk92 (
talk) 13:23, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Approving ALT1a hook. Nsk92 (talk) 13:23, 21 September 2019 (UTC)