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Template:Did you know nominations/Laurence Patrick Lee

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Launchballer talk 00:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Laurence Patrick Lee

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repeating world map
Lee's Conformal Tetrahedric Projection, tiling the plane
  • ... that New Zealand mathematician Laurence Patrick Lee worked his way to England to find a cure for his stammer and was speaking normally after just 18 minutes of instruction?
  • Source: "N.Z. Man Cured Of Stammering By British 'Expert' ", Greymouth Evening Star, 11 Dec 1950, [N.Z.P.A. SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT], "When Mr L. P. Lee [...] read in a Jersey newspaper that Mr William C. Kerr, M.A., of St Helier, had discovered a cure for stammering he decided to get a year's leave of absence from the Lands and Survey Department and to work his way to England. ¶ Lee had been stammering all his life and he felt that Mr Kerr could help him. He worked as engineer’s steward in the Trojan Star, arrived in England on November 13 and 18 minutes after seeing Mr Kerr on November 18 he was speaking normally. ¶ Recorded Proof ¶ Mr Kerr took a recording of Lee stammering the date and time before instructing him. He took a second recording 18 minutes later with Lee now stating the date and time without stammering.
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: Alternate hooks could talk about his map projections (and could include map pictures, if a picture is needed), but this story seemed like a better human interest hook.
Created by Jacobolus (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

–jacobolus (t) 00:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC).

Length, history and reference verified. Earwig looks OK even though I couldn't use Google because it said we had sent too many queries to it.
However ... the end of one graf was uncited, and so I have tagged it. It should be easy to fix. Daniel Case (talk) 19:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I added some examples of other high impact books/papers which have cited and discussed Lee's paper (the claim in the article was that it was influential). –jacobolus (t) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Daniel Case, have the issues been addressed? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. All but one of those sources are paywalled from where I am, but since the one that isn't describes the cited paper as "well-known", we'll take your word for it. Daniel Case (talk) 17:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I could go either way on this, but anyone else a little uncomfortable with sourcing a medical story claim to a 1950 newspaper? It's not a MEDRS claim, but it's not an uncontroversial one, either. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
The article says that he continued to work with the specialist for weeks, which seems to contradict the hook? Looking around online for sources about quickly curing a stammer, I found "There is no instant cure for stuttering., contrary to popular belief, there isn't a permanent fix to overcoming a stammer, and therapies and courses are not a cure or a 'quick fix' for stammering. Open to alternative hooks or being proven wrong, Rjjiii (talk) 15:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC) Forgot to ping jacobolus, Rjjiii (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Maybe you can think of a better phrasing for a hook (or we could come up with an alternate hook not having to do with the stammer). The claim from the news article is that Kerr recorded Lee saying the date and time when he first arrived, stammering, and then 18 minutes later took another recording of him saying the date and time, not stammering – i.e. just saying one simple sentence, not an ability to fluently speak without stammering. (The news article author presumably listened to this recording.) Then he stayed for another few weeks with Kerr to work on it, and by the time he left he considered himself cured with only a slight occasional stammer remaining. I don't think the claimed "cure" here was ever perfect, but Kerr really did have a stammering clinic in Jersey for decades, apparently with significant success, with people coming from all over the world to work with him. After 1955 Kerr's clinic was hosted in this funny boat-shaped building in Jersey called "Barge Aground", which can nowadays be rented by tourists. There are a couple of pictures of Kerr here, and some other patients. –jacobolus (t) 18:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Here's the full news article:
N.Z. Man Cured Of Stammering By British “Expert”
[N.Z.P.A. SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT]
LONDON, December 10 (Rec. 9 a.m.).—When Mr L. P. Lee, of 195 The Terrace, Wellington, read in a Jersey newspaper that Mr William C. Kerr, M.A., of St Helier, had discovered a cure for stammering he decided to get a year’s leave of absence from the Lands and Survey Department and to work his way to England.
Lee had been stammering all his life and he felt that Mr Kerr could help him. He worked as engineer’s steward in the Trojan Star, arrived in England on November 13 and 18 minutes after seeing Mr Kerr on November 18 he was speaking normally.
Recorded Proof
Mr Kerr took a recording of Lee stammering the date and time before instructing him. He took a second recording 18 minutes later with Lee now stating the date and time without stammering.
Lee stayed with Mr Kerr for a fortnight and when he returned to London his brother Mr M. G. Lee, who is teaching at a college and who had been most sceptical was “astounded” at the change.
Mr L. P. Lee told the Press Association: “I am thoroughly happy about the cure. I know that whenever I want to I can speak normally and I could even make a public speech now.” Only a slight occasional stammer is noticeable -in his speech and he counted rapidly up to 20.
Discovery Made
Mr Kerr said: “When I was a student at Glasgow University 16 years ago I had. to write a thesis on philosophy. In doing so I came across a psychological discovery. From this I discovered the cause and then the cure of stammering.”
“Its taken me a long time and I’ve had to contend with a good deal of scepticism and' opposition. But I’ve had 90 per cent success with 50 cases. I’m not a doctor but I believe I have a mission and I am making this my life’s work. I charge a fee which I shall reduce as I get more patients,” stated Mr Kerr.
–jacobolus (t) 18:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
@Rjjiii: Have your concerns been addressed? If not, what else does @Jacobolus: need to do?--Launchballer 19:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
@Jacobolus and Launchballer: No, because "Kerr really did have a stammering clinic in Jersey for decades, apparently with significant success, with people coming from all over the world to work with him" is true, but when I dig through sources, many of them make his treatment sound ineffective:
  • "It was after his mother died when he was 15 that his dad found a "miracle cure" at an unusual school in Jersey. 'I was basically "cured" by being beaten up. I went to a school run by a man called Bill Kerr. He maintained stammering was a fear of words and if he could make your brain understand that stammering was scarier than speaking, he could cure you. We had to stand bolt upright, speaking slowly and if we stammered he hit us. Slapped round the face punched in the stomach, smacked in the back of the head. I ordered soup one night and I stammered and he dunked my head in the bowl. But after three days I was speaking for the first time in my life.'"[1]
  • "During our many exchanges, we discovered that (in the 1960's) we had both attended a two weeks course in Jersey (a small island located between the UK and France), run by the late Dr Bill Kerr (from Scotland). With his typical frankness, Marty often referred to Kerr as a charlatan."[2]
  • "I spent three intense weeks on the British Isle of Jersey at a 'school for stutterers' run by a scoundrel. Dr. William C. Kerr, Ph.D., as he insisted on calling himself, had steel-blue eyes and a ferocious temperament. He promised to cure his class of stutterers "in a fortnight," and indeed, he worked with me and seven other stutterers for twenty days, eight to twelve hours a day. As long as he held us in his intimidating gaze, we dared not stutter. Unfortunately, he was not for rent and did not travel. When I returned to the United States, I was still stuttering."[3]
  • Or the 'doctor of something or other who lived on the Isle of Jersey in the English Channel,' who sent Marty's father a written promise that he'd effect a cure 'in a fortnight.' So off to Jersey flew Marty, to confront a sergeant- major type whose idea was 'to toughen us up as if we were recruits in the British Army. . . . To stumble even the slightest bit was to provoke his fury. Not only would he yell at us (and, from six inches away, splatter us with spit), but he'd grab us by the shirt or the scruff of the collar and shake us out of our stammering softness,' Jezer writes. The doctor seemed to think that spontaneous speech was women's talk. Men . . . wouldn't squander their power with idle chatter. We were to be silent unless we had something important, manly, to say.'
    Lord, lord. And it all amounted, of course, to nothing. The Jersey doc could bully patients into brief stutter-free performances. Marty's parents wanted badly to believe he was cured. His father died in that belief. Marty's not cured, and lives with the fact that he never will be.    [4][5]
  • "the late William Kerr, a roving unlicensed speech therapist from the Isle of Jersey [...]
    On the first day [of the Kerr course] we were gathering at the motel and going through the ritual of introductions. One man put his hand out to me and said, 'My name is ... uh ... actually . .. my name is Jim." Afterwards one of the other men in the group who had a highly noticeable stutter shook his head and said, in an aside to me, "What a fool! I'd rather stammer my head off than avoid like that. It looks ridiculous. People must think he's crazy' [...] The simplest way to conceal stuttering is to avoid speaking.    "[6][7]
It feels weird to attribute a near-miracle cure to a man that so many folks seemed to say just intimidated people into shutting up for a bit. Also, theleekycauldron why do you say it's not WP:MEDRS? Rjjiii (talk) 05:04, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Because asserting that a treatment worked once doesn't require asserting that it works in general; it's entirely possible that this story is true, whether by luck of the draw or complete coincidence, but Kerr is in general a charlatan. It's a narrow interpretation of MEDRS, and I probably wouldn't include the claim myself, but I don't think a meta-analysis is necessary to support the details of one person's life experience. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for your research. Kerr's record does sound a lot more mixed than the couple other sources I found in my quick internet skim. I don't think it's a "miracle" if an aggressive (perhaps to the point of abusive) method was sometimes a complete failure and even source of trauma but also sometimes found some success and even appreciation from the patients. Whether or not it could be considered a "cure" by some rigid criteria (marketing + newspaper hype typically tends to moderate exaggeration), at least some people clearly felt that their stuttering was significantly ameliorated and their life was thereby improved. But I can understand your skepticism about promoting a controversial and probably now illegal medical treatment from the Wikipedia front page.
I could try to come up with an alternative hook, but making a not-bland one about Lee's map projection work might require adding a bit more detail about that topic to the article / hunting for more sources: I know some things I personally appreciate about Lee's work, but I'm not sure if there's a good secondary source voicing those comments. –jacobolus (t) 05:32, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
I clicked through your first link, Rjjiii, and while the part you quoted makes Kerr's treatment sound outright abusive, the following paragraph also makes it sound like it was ultimately helpful, perhaps life changing, for the patient: Now a patron of the British Stammering Association, he says he is indebted to Kerr for teaching him tricks which have helped him forge a career as a sports pundit, appearing on television and radio. "He taught us how to use words, and how to know when someone's using speech to intimidate you. So I have this whole bag of tricks now. It has served me so well. ¶ "But I do Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman and I still have to go to the toilet for a couple of minutes before to compose myself like Bill Kerr told me." –jacobolus (t) 16:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
@Jacobolus: I don't think the sourcing is there to describe Kerr's treatment as something that can cure a stutter in a month in Wikipedia's voice. Rather than continue to discuss it, could I invite you to either ping another editor or maybe post a notice to Wikipedia talk:Did you know or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine? If I'm outvoted on the sourcing, I'll accept the consensus. Regarding an article on Kerr, I will likely pass on it, but appreciate the suggestion. If you decide to write him up, something I found limited information on but must have been a huge deal is that he apparently was an early speech therapist for George VI. Rjjiii (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
By the way, Rjjiii, would you consider making a Wikipedia article about Kerr himself? It seems like a worthy subject and you've already done significant research here. –jacobolus (t) 05:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Here's another source, Petrunik 1974: The "Kerr method" refers to a method of speaking taught by W. C. Kerr in a two-week course, as a "cure" for stuttering. The method essentially involves a standardized temporal ordering (time-on/time-off sequence) of speech. Each word is syllabilized and there are split second pauses between each syllable; for example, I-am-a-u-ni-ver-si-ty stu-dent. The individual is told to stand in a ram-rod straight fashion with his head up high. Unfortunately, such a manner of speech, though technically fluent, does not meet the expectations for normal speech in North America. Its effects have been described as mechanical, stilted, and artificial. I can well imagine that some patients might consider adopting a method like this to be inadequate while others might think it beneficial (compared to an alternative of being unable or barely able to speak in many contexts due to a heavy stutter or associated anxiety) despite some obvious drawbacks. –jacobolus (t) 05:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
@Jacobolus and Rjjiii: What is the status of this nomination?--Launchballer 10:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jacobolus: Throwing spaghetti at the wall:

You can strike or ask me to strike any/all that you are not feeling. Rjjiii (talk) 02:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case, Rjjiii, Theleekycauldron, and Launchballer: Then nomination will time out in a few days, so please resolve any remaining issues before then. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I have no idea what a conformal map/world is and would question whether a broad audience would. "was a computer" would make a fine quirky but a) it would need an end-of-sentence citation and b) I'd consider adding a small amount of extra context such as "for New Zealand's Department of Lands and Survey". I can live with "worked his way..." as it doesn't say he was actually cured, but a) you'll still need an end-of-sentence citation and b) I'd nuke "as an engineer's stewart" per WP:DYKTRIM.--Launchballer 12:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Why no hook based around File:Lee Conformal World in a Tetrahedron projection.png? Surely it's an immediately striking image to all? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:57, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
What, such as "that Laurence Patrick Lee developed the Lee conformal world in a tetrahedron projection (pictured)?"? Because there's no guarantee the image would be picked and I'd worry that any hook that mentions it would have a link to "Lee conformal world in a tetrahedron", which the image would divert readers towards. (Hmm. 740 characters up to 3700. How quickly can you work...)--Launchballer 17:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
The Conformal Tetrahedric Projection, tessellating the plane

Sorry, I meant to reply here earlier. Perhaps we could say that Lee's "Tetrahedric Projection" can periodically tile the plane (cf. Wallpaper group), or mention that Lee's map projection of the Pacific Ocean was optimized to minimize scale distortion while preserving angles. We could probably add a nice image of the Pacific Ocean projection if people think that would be the most interesting hook. A source for the periodic tiling is

McIlroy, M. D. (2011). "Wallpaper Maps". In C. B. Jones; J. L. Lloyd (eds.). Dependable and Historic Computing. Springer. pp. 358–375. doi:10.1007/978-3-642-24541-1_27.

A source about the Pacific projection is

"New Zealand moves to centre on maps". The Press. Vol. 115, no. 33753. 1975-01-28. p. 3 – via National Library of New Zealand.

–jacobolus (t) 01:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  • Two months have passed since the nomination began and it has remained unapproved. Marking for closure per WP:DYKTIMEOUT. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
    @Narutolovehinata5 – this more or less matches my consistently disappointing experience with Wikipedia bureaucratic processes. They routinely hinge on meeting made up criteria and arbitrary deadlines and effecrtively exclude anyone who isn't part of a special cadre of editors who care about and focus on the bureaucracy from participating. Last time I tried submitting an article to DYK (Lexell's theorem) it sat in a queue with no reviewers forever and then finally a nontechnical DYK regular who didn't understand the topic claimed it was inherently unsuitable. I thought I'd try again with a biography, but apparently that's no good either. The best solution is probably for the non-in-group to just not bother engaging with DYK, because the run-around is more or less a waste of everyone's time. –jacobolus (t) 03:54, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
    @Jacobolus: the thing people are waiting for is an alternative hook. If you want write up hooks based on Launchballer's comments or AirshipJungleman29's map suggestion, I will go ahead and review those before the nomination is closed, Rjjiii (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, then how about:

A zoomable picture of the Pacific Ocean map can be seen here. We could use this projection to make an image for Wikipedia, if it would help for DYK. –jacobolus (t) 15:41, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

A reviewer is needed for new hooks. @Narutolovehinata5: I've removed the fail for timeout because I think there was confusion about the process. @Jacobolus: Excuse me if I over-explain anything, here. For the two hooks above, the first one needs an inline citation that verifies it within the nominated article, Laurence Patrick Lee (WP:DYKHOOKCITE). This allows the reader to verify the hook and (in theory) if the content changes to see how that happened. I may be missing something in the source listed here but I only see "L. P. Lee collected them and other polygonal maps in a summary monograph". Granted, I'm skimming and it does uses an assortment of obscure synonyms. For the second hook, it reads pretty obtuse for a general reader (WP:DYKINT). I think this is less of an issue with the map there as an explanation. People do upload images for other hooks, sometimes. I've cropped a photo for an upcoming fact,[8] and someone did a whole series of photos for the Henry Street salamander tunnels.[9] I wouldn't expect that though. In general, the expectation is for the nominator to take the initiative in proposing alternative hooks, uploading images, etc. If a hook sits without a response, it will be dropped. The icon at the beginning of this reply should bump this nomination back to the not reviewed list. For the benefit of whoever does the review, it would help if you could make explicit which hooks are still on the table for consideration as this discussion is somewhat long. Rjjiii (talk) 23:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
I apologize, but WP:DYKTIMEOUT was codified for a reason: to prevent long-lasting nominations like this from clogging up WP:DYKN, an important consideration considering reviewer resources. Nominations dragging on and on was a long-time problem and the community essentially had enough, hence why timeouts were implemented: they were due to cases like this. For what it's worth, I do not think either hook is interesting to a broad audience even with the image. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
That's fine. The message – namely, anyone who isn't a DYK insider and isn't obsessed with playing games to win badges, should just not bother with this process because it will inevitably be a time-wasting disappointment – is loud and clear. This happens nearly every time I engage with DYK, GAC, FAC, GAR, FAR, etc. It's really not worth the huge waste of time. I'll clear out and leave the game to the point-seekers and bureaucrats. –jacobolus (t) 03:55, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
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