Template:Did you know nominations/Marie Litta

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:41, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Marie Litta

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~~... that the name Marie is pronounced the same as Maria—at least for one woman?~~ Source: "Marie (pronounced Maria) Litta" from [1]
- ALT1: ... that the first performance of opera singer Marie Litta was to soldiers of the Union Army at the age of five? Source: "Her first public appearance came at the age of 5, singing “‘Tis the Last Rose of Summer” before Union troops in Springfield." from [2]
- ALT2: ... that Marie Eugenia von Elsner took on her Italian stage name of Marie Litta while in Paris? Source: "She made her Paris debut in 1878 in “Lucia di Lammermoor” at the Theatre des Italiens, taking the Italian surname Marie Litta (whether von Elsner or Litta, her first name was always pronounced “Maria”)."
- ALT3: ... that Marie Litta formed her own opera company in 1880? Source: "By 1880 Litta, now under the management of Henry L. Slayton of Chicago, formed a touring company under her own name" from [3]

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Courtenay Edward Stevens
Comment: Not married to any of these hooks - feel free to suggest some if you'd like.

Created by Urve (talk). Self-nominated at 08:36, 4 November 2021 (UTC).

Comment: thank you for creating "her". I think the name question alone is a bit too little, and think to add the role to her Paris debut might add to her weight in music history. I'm no friend of nationalities but here it's almost quirky that the American soprano with a German name took on an Italian stage name when first appearing in Paris, in one of the most demanding coloratura soprano roles.

Marie Litta

ALT4: ... that American soprano Marie Litta (pictured) took her stage name when she made her debut in Paris as Lucia di Lammermoor? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
- ALT4 (nee ALT5) sounds rather niche and may not appeal to non-opera fans (I've relabeled it as ALT4 as there was none originally). Actually, among all the hooks, I think only the original is interesting or quirky, with ALT1 being marginally interesting and ALTs 2 and 3 not really catching attention. As another suggestion, perhaps a hook about her funeral being attended by over 10,000 people could also be proposed here? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
  - Thanks, Trainsandotherthings and Narutolovehinata5. I've modified ALT1 and struck 2 and 3. I am hesitant to write a hook about her funeral because while the details are sourced, I have a hard time believing the number. Urve (talk) 22:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Comment: I read the article, and I am shocked that ALT1 doesn't mention what I think is very interesting as someone not very familiar with opera: Her first performance was at age 5! I think that modifying ALT1 to include that would make it much more interesting. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
I think it's interesting, but "opera singer" could be any voice type performing minor roles at a regional theatre. This lady performed one of the most difficult roles (at her time), Lucia di Lammermoor ([4]), a heroine who kills her husband on their wedding day, made famous later by Maria Callas), in Paris and throughout the U.S.. The thousands at her funeral didn't come because she performed at age 5, but because they had seen her as Lucia. The picture doesn't go well with age 5 ;) - We could say that she was compared to Jenny Lind, but you'll tell me that you don't know who that was. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
I make no claims of being an opera expert, just as I doubt you'd claim to be a train expert. I saw that the reviewer was looking for other hooks, so I made a suggestion. If you think other hooks are better, I support requesting the reviewer take a second look. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry if I was unclear. I try - and the reviewer knows it, and that goes for opera and other topics - to say something about a subject that can be said only about that subject, and preferably a bit about why we have an article about her. Singing at 5 for soldiers is not why we have an article about her. Anything age 5 usually says nothing about the subject, but (in this case) about her father. I wonder what kind of childhood she had.

ALT5: ... that Marie Litta (pictured), who sang for soldiers of the Union Army at the age of five, began an operatic career in Paris in her signature role Lucia di Lammermoor?

At that time, it wasn't as today, most American singers beginning in Europe. It was still an exception, - imagine travel conditions ... - Bach introduced a book of piano pieces as "for connoisseurs and lay people", and I believe that we can please both kinds of readers in one hook. Btw, on the Main now an American soprano of our time, and which double role she performed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, thank you for reviewing this DYK. I appreciate your time. Would you mind taking a look at Gerda's proposal (ALT5)? I feel it is just as hooky, but provides a good balance and respect to the subject. Urve (talk) 06:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion, but I still very much greatly prefer ALT1 because I really don't see how the role adds to the hookiness of the main hook fact (her singing at the age of 5): the hook works perfectly fine without the mention of the role, adding the mention of the role just adds complexity given that the mention of the role isn't foundational to the main hook fact.

As for Gerda's note about "hooks should be based on what a person is known for", that's not really how DYK works. DYK hooks are intended to highlight interesting or unusual facts about the subject, even if it's not the subject's main claim to notability. For example, imagine an article about a sports anchor that mentions that she wrote a best-selling cookbook. In this case, a hook about her cookbook is likely to be broadly appealing compared to a hook solely about her being a sports anchor, because there's a contrast there that makes for something unexpected. "Did you know that Jane Doe is a sports anchor for Channel 1?" wouldn't make a good hook, but "Did you know that Channel 1 sports anchor Jane Doe published a cookbook, which made the Anytown Times' Best-Sellers List?" would be a fascinating one. Of course, hooks don't always have to be about contrasts, but essentially the point here is that a hook doesn't need to be about the subject's main claim to fame (take for example: when Winston Churchill was featured on DYK a while back, the hook wasn't about him being Prime Minister of the UK but rather his lesser-known hobby of bricklaying, even though the former is what he's best known for). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:56, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think these are comparable. "A humble bricklayer [quirky fact] later became prime minister [the subject's importance]" is just as interesting as only saying he was a bricklayer; it's redundant, but only because we know who Churchill is, while nobody knows Litta. But as I said below, I'm not interested in fighting this ("leave it be"); I asked you to consider, you said no, that's OK - the article is just meant as a gift, and any appearance on the front page is worthwhile. Urve (talk) 07:22, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say we should mention what the subject is known for, but that I prefer to do that, - big difference. ~~The hook about Churchill was for the article Winston Churchill as painter, please get such facts right.~~ Yesterday, we had an article about a soprano, Elizabeth Reiter, only mentioning one of her roles, actually a double role. I liked the result in views, 1.8k+, but what I liked more was the result for the also mentioned opera, Lost Highway (opera), 1.5k+, and what I liked still more was the result for the opera's composer who wasn't even linked, telling that readers actually go for further information once hooked. But no 5-year activity alone would ever hook me, - shallow seems a good discription, Urve. - Tomorrow, we'll see results for an opera singer, John Gurney (bass-baritone), about whom we say no more than that he is able to sing the national anthem at his son's racing events. The clicks may be higher, but it's still nothing I want to do to subjects I write about. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Gerda, I was referring to Template:Did you know nominations/Winston Churchill when I mentioned the bricklaying and not the painter nomination. The hook that was ultimately promoted went "that Winston Churchill (pictured) was a keen amateur bricklayer, constructing buildings and garden walls at his home, Chartwell?". I also don't understand why you appear to be upset about Gurney's hook using the "he sang at his son's races" fact considering you were the one who initially proposed it on the nomination page. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Why do you think I'm upset? I'm just watching. The hook I suggested was better (in my eyes) than the one nominated (which only said he was the father of his famous son), but it wasn't what I'd have said if it was "my" subject. I like to focus on the achievements of a grown-up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I see. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, and I apologize for Churchill, looking at the wrong article. Winston Churchill is an excpeption, - the answer to "DYK that he was prime minister?" would be yes, so not a good DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion Trains, and I agree, her singing at the age of 5 makes that hook a lot more interesting; in fact, I now suggest we go with that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

The article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination, and a QPQ has been provided. I also didn't find any close paraphrasing. I'm assuming good faith for sources I can't access. The revised ALT1 is the best hook proposed and as such I've struck the remaining options. Good to go with ALT1. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I'd fight this if I had written the article, saying nothing about an international star other than that she began at age 5 - which many did. But it's Urve's call. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:37, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I thought your hook was beautiful and preferable. I would rather if it was left to the promoter to choose between yours and the childhood one. It's possible that there is some reason to not choose it, depends on the queues, I suppose. Like funeral hooks, I find childhood ones shallow and borderline insulting to the subject, but if that's what counts as "interesting" then I'll leave it be. Urve (talk) 11:53, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I feel understood, thank you. Promoter, please also check the struck options, struck for taste reasons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm going to be honest here, I do not see how a hook about her singing from a young age is "disrespectful", and in fact it could argued that it shows just how talented and great she was. But that's just my opinion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:02, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
I didn't say "disrespectful", why do you address me with that? Once you did, it doesn't say how great she was, only that she did it. To me, it sounds like a bit of mascoot-like fun entertainment, - nothing that would hook me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I find it far more interesting that this girl sang for Union soldiers at the time that she did, June 1861; for me, it symbolizes that early-civil war innocence where the wealthy elites brought picnic baskets to actual battles and generally thought all the boys would be home by christmas. But that's just me. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 08:22, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
(please indent according to User talk:Drmies, for people using screenreaders) - Yes, and how has that innocence anything to do with her? What about ALT5, saying both? ... perhaps with the year? We need quirkyness only for 1/8 of the hooks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
I didn't mean it'd be a good idea to run it, I'm just commenting. I'll pick a hook when I promote. To be honest, I don't think much of any of them, but we'll see. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 10:05, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

ps: For ALT5, you could use the picture. For ALT1, it doesn't work. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:50, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Gerda, the reviewing instructions outright say that hooks need to be "interesting to a broad audience". It's right there in the edit notice of every DYK nomination. Saying that quirkiness (or I guess hookiness is a better word) is needed "only for 1/8 of the hooks" goes against actual DYK instructions. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

How is ALT5 not interesting to a broad audience, giving the aged-five quirky bit and some substance? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I already explained my side earlier Gerda: it was rejected not for interest, but for complexity. The main hook fact (that she sang at the age of five) is already fine as it is and doesn't need extra details. If the hook fact was something that wouldn't work without added context, then that would be the time to add additional details, but this is not the case here. Indeed, WP:DYKHOOK states that hooks must be "short, punchy, catchy"; adding further details in this case would dilute the hook's shortness and punchiness considering the added details are not central to the hookiness of the main hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:39, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify Gerda: when I was talking about interestingness earlier, I wasn't talking about ALT5, I was referring to your "only for 1/8 of the hooks" comment. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I said quirky, and meant quirky, and that's wanted for 1/8. - A related discussion came to my talk, by Urve, in case of interest. We women nominators agree ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I can't technically promote any hook besides ALT1 unless the reviewer approves it. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 19:51, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

To clarify: the hook approved here is ALT1. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5, Urve, and Gerda Arendt: I'm not inclined to promote ALT1. Not only does it not focus on her impressive professional career, it also just objectively fails to be more interesting than other parts of the article, neglecting my tangential thoughts on the atmosphere of the war at the time. Urve, I don't understand why you struck ALT3? I think it's interesting and substantive that she started her own opera company at ~24, that seems young. Her death at 27 also jumped out at me as well. Could we combine those? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 02:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

ALT6: ... that Marie Litta started her own opera company in her early 20s, just a few years before her death in 1883?
ALT6a: ... that Marie Litta (pictured) started her own opera company in 1880, around three years before her death?
ALT6b: ... that Marie Litta (pictured) started her own opera company in 1880, before she reached 25?

These are good. I struck the alt because as worded it failed to be interesting (many people form companies), but these modifications are helpful. Either the earlier-approved hook or one of these are fine with me, after seeing the main page today literally anything is respectful in comparison. Urve (talk) 02:51, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I think ALT6 and ALT6b are good hooks. @Urve, Theleekycauldron, and Gerda Arendt: Are all of you okay with either of the two being approved? ALT6a doesn't mention her age so it has less of an impact compared to the other two options. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:50, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I proposed it, and Urve indicated assent, so it seems like we're good there. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 06:07, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you.

ALT6 and ALT6b are both approved, and I am assuming good faith for the offline source for each. All other options have been struck. The final choice in hook is left to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, all. I added pictured to those, because the image would add the extra touch of how unusual that was, at that time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay! Promoting ALT 6 to Prep 7, with image. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:41, 24 November 2021 (UTC)