Template:Did you know nominations/Marina Kondratyeva2

Marina Kondratyeva2

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Kondratyeva as Giselle in 1972.jpg

... that when Marina Kondratyeva appeared as Giselle (pictured) with the Bolshoi Ballet at the Metropolitan Opera in 1962, the headline of the New York Times said that she excelled in the title role? Source: [1]
- Reviewed: Hotel Marseilles
- Comment: there was a previous failed nom

Improved to Good Article status by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2122 past nominations.

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

A new hook will probably be needed here as the current hook probably does not meet WP:DYKINT. The rationale is the same as the previous nomination: the hook is too complicated, has too many details, and is not a spectacular hook. My suggestion would probably to re-propose ALT1 and ALT4 from the original nomination due to meeting the guidelines better (much more direct to the point, thus meeting WP:DYKTRIM). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
How about leaving the review to someone else? Perhaps not everybody will agree with you about being mentioned in a headline of the NYT, for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:47, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that the hook does arguably fail both DYKINT and DYKTRIM. Yes the NYT is prestigious, but a hook about a person being praised for doing their job doesn't really work as a hooky hook. It would be like having a hook on DYK saying "DYK that Lionel Messi was praised in the press for his performance during the World Cup final?" Yes a good accomplishment, but not necessarily what DYK is looking for. The other, probably more salient point here, is DYKTRIM: the hooks has several details that may distract from the main point of the hook (that she was praised for her role). DYKTRIM states don't be afraid to trim hooks of extraneous information and clauses. Even if DYKINT is subjective, DYKTRIM is less so. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

For example, ALT0 could be simplified to simply "... that a New York Times headline praised Marina Kondratyeva's 1962 performance of Giselle with the Bolshoi Ballet?" Mostly the same idea but a lot shorter per WP:DYKTRIM. I'm still not a fan of that specific angle, but if you really want to go with that one, said wording may meet the guidelines better than the original. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

You are free to improve the hook, and I like the direction, but ALT0 could still play in Moscow, and the appearance of the complete Russian troupe on New York's most prestigious stage during the Cold War, which I found surprising to put it mildly, would be lost. Minor issues: I try to have the bolded subject in front, and not as a possessive, and I feel that "NYT headline" might be too sloppy for the Main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I really don't think ALT0 is going to work out or meet the guidelines, so I've struck it. I'm reproposing two of the hooks from the previous nomination below and offering them as options:

ALT0a that a New York Times headline praised Marina Kondratyeva's (pictured) 1962 performance of Giselle with the Bolshoi Ballet?

ALT1 ... that ballerina Marina Kondratyeva (pictured) was said to be "weightless, airy, poetic and spiritual"?

ALT2 ... that ballerina Marina Kondratyeva (pictured) served the Bolshoi Ballet and its school for over 70 years?

Is this okay with you, as a compromise? The choice in hook could be left to a different reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:11, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question: How about leaving the review to someone else? Remember? ALT0a: there's still no clue that this played in New York City (not Moscow), and not she is pictured, but she in the role. ALT1: That she appears as weightless and airy is well captured in the image, - no need to say it in quoted words. That she is a ballerina is also clearly visible. ALT2: The sheer length of time served doesn't say a word about that she was top both dancing and training, let alone being the chosen one for a U.S. tour.

ALT0b: ... that when Marina Kondratyeva appeared as Giselle (pictured) with the Bolshoi Ballet at the Metropolitan Opera in 1962, she was praised in the headline of the New York Times?

ALT0c: ... that when Marina Kondratyeva appeared with the Bolshoi Ballet at the Metropolitan Opera in 1962, the headline of the New York Times said that she excelled as Giselle (pictured)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The issue is WP:DYKTRIM and the hooks you proposed arguably do not meet it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

To answer your question directly: I already offered to let someone else review the nomination if you agreed to ALT0a, since it met DYKTRIM. Given I technically proposed ALT1 and ALT2, I couldn't have reviewed the nomination anyway (nor can Storye book since those were originally her proposals). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Floq, what do you think? I pinged you before to just take notice, but since, N. struck two more hooks that I believe are concise enough, and trimming further would reduce information. We claim "did you know", - saying that a ballerina was described as weightless is not passing knowledge, nor that someone served a notable organization for 70 years. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

With the caveats that (a) I'm not terribly familiar with the social mores of DYK, and (b) I'm responding to a ping, so I'm not uninvolved:

If I recall correctly, NLH brought GA to ANI because they felt GA's blurbs were routinely too long and not interesting. And received really strong negative feeback for doing so. It seems suboptimal for NLH to continue to review GA's blurbs and complain they are too long and not interesting. Surely there are enough reviewers for someone else to review?
Interesting, in particular, is in the eye of the beholder, and NLH received feedback that their eye does not seem to match the overall DYK community.
It appears a hook should be around 150-160 characters, with an absolute max of 200. This one is 163 or 195 (not sure if you folks count spaces). That seems within range if DYK typically doesn't count spaces, and maybe in need of a trim if DYK usually does.
Since I'm semi-involved, I won't try to propose a shorter hook myself. The current one doesn't seem confusing, though, which I would think is more important than simple length.
There might be other things I'm not aware of, so if I've ignored something the DYK community considers important, take this with a grain of salt.

--Floquenbeam (talk) 17:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)