Template:Did you know nominations/Meine engen Grenzen
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 10:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
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Meine engen Grenzen
- ... that singing "Meine engen Grenzen" by Eugen Eckert and Winfried Heurich means requesting that one's narrow limitations be transformed to a broader perspective? Source: several
- Reviewed: Mary Stuart Smith
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 19:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC).
Article is new enough, long enough, and original. It's written neutrally and informatively and carefully referenced - good encyclopedic work. I'm using Google translate to read the (German language) sources and the article is a definitely a fair representation of what it in those sources. My only query about the references is ref 6 in the current version. There's a title and publisher for this, but no further information. I suspect it's a paper publication, but could we have more information as to what it is? QPQ done. I have two issues with the hook. 1) "be transformed to a broader perspective" I didn't find where in the sources (specifically ref 2) legitimises this form of words, though I admit this could be the fault of Google translate and of my terrible German. The poem is clearly about recognising one's narrow limitations, as the title implies and the sources repeatedly state, so this query is just about that latter part of the sentence. 2) "singing ... means requesting ..." feels like a really odd construction to me. I see why it's chosen: the subject is both a poem and a hymn and spelling this out would be clunky. If it's important to have Heurich in the hook, "...that the hymn "Meine engen Grenzen" by Eugen Eckert and Winfried Heurich requests that one's..." would be a more natural construction. So I'd like to see another attempt at the hook for this well-written and definitely DYK-able article. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking, and will return with more time, and a qpq. Just for the wording, it's obviously unclear because what you word seems not to be the same. When I sing "Meine engen Grenzen" (My narrow limit(ation)s I bring before you) followed by "wandle sie" (transform them), then I - the singer request that my limits be transformed. The singer requests, very personally so. Help with wording welcome, anybody. The article explains that the author wrote it when reaching his limits when he tried to prevent the suicide of a girl whose minister he was. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Martin, back with a bit more time: "broader perspective" is a summary of the individual requests, closest in the first stanza:
- narrow limits (enge Grenzen) to: broadness (Weite)
- powerlessness (Ohnmacht) to: strength (Stärke)
- lost confidence (verlornes Zutraun) to: warmth (Wärme)
- deep longing for comfort (tiefe Sehnsucht nach Geborgenheit) to: a sense of home (Heimat). Help with wording welcome - we can't print the whole for copyright reasons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your patient explanation, Gerda, and for further improvements to the article. I've no doubt that the information in the article and hook is correct. I've really wrestled with this, but the wording of the hook still feels odd. In particular, the hymn itself, rather than singing of the hymn, should be the subject of the hook. It's the hymn which calls for a broader perspective, not the specific act of singing the hymn. As I understand the process, if I suggest a hook myself, someone else has to review that? Do you want to have another go at a hook that expresses essentially the same information, but with the hymn as the subject? MartinPoulter (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I tried to express in the hook what a translation would be, to avoid a clumsy thing in brackets which would clarify that it's a "first-person-singular song", - while for example Luther's songs were "we"-songs. I also don't know how to avoid the he-she problem, when talking about the identification from the start of a singer with the person in the song. Any help for those aspects? listen for inspiration --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- That it's first-person singular when other hymns are first-person plural is an interesting subtlety that went over my head. I agree that it's very hard to convey that in the context of this hook, so trying to allude to it in the hook is overcomplicating things. Again, the fact is about the hymn, so the grammatical subject of the hook should be the hymn. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda, can you supply a new hook please? The current one is rather vague and uninteresting. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 20:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have company - which is so rare this year. Please wait, or suggest something. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I'll try, and maybe you'll try to like it :)
- ALT1:
... that the hymn "Meine engen Grenzen" ("My narrow limits") was written by Eugen Eckert when he was ministering in a home for girls in difficult circumstances and was unable to help one of his charges?Yoninah (talk) 20:25, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- I fixed the translation which is only translation, not a title in English, and am not willing to bring what probably still makes a living person unhappy to the Main page, sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:45, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK, so you're on your own again. Yoninah (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Better alone than allude to a suicide that could not be prevented, - with the girl's parents possibly also living. I have a FAC and a GA review waiting more urgently. - Any singer can bring their own limits, and think of their own limits, which makes this hymn very general, and therefore useful in trying times, - not just one author's one trying situation, even if it came from there, Martin. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK, so you're on your own again. Yoninah (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your patient explanation, Gerda, and for further improvements to the article. I've no doubt that the information in the article and hook is correct. I've really wrestled with this, but the wording of the hook still feels odd. In particular, the hymn itself, rather than singing of the hymn, should be the subject of the hook. It's the hymn which calls for a broader perspective, not the specific act of singing the hymn. As I understand the process, if I suggest a hook myself, someone else has to review that? Do you want to have another go at a hook that expresses essentially the same information, but with the hymn as the subject? MartinPoulter (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that "Meine engen Grenzen" ("My narrow limits"), a new hymn with text by Eugen Eckert and a melody by Winfried Heurich, was recorded with a band?
- More than once, I included this sample. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- ALT3: ... that the poem "Meine engen Grenzen" ("My narrow limits") by Eugen Eckert was made into a new hymn the year it was published? --evrik (talk) 03:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Review of hooks needed. --evrik (talk) 03:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for trying ALT3 but what is there unusual? - Perhaps it was even planned to be a hymn, do we know? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think progress is being made. ALT2 is better than previous hooks but that recorded versions exist of a song isn't a surprising fact. Nowadays, it would be more surprising if a song had never been recorded. ALT3 is acceptable to me, so thanks evrik for moving things along. Whether or not the poem was planned to by a hymn isn't relevant. That the year of composition of the poem is the same as its year of being set to music is reported by ref 2 of the the current version of the article, but it's not immediately clear in the article that that's the relevant ref, so I'll add an inline citation after the claim in the article. (Switches to other tab) Done- now that ref has become ref 1. Trying to verify the statement that the hymn is "of the genre Neues Geistliches Lied" I'm getting stuck. I don't see the phrase "Neues Geistliches Lied" in the linked references. Gerda, could you clarify which ref that statement comes from, and better still add it inline in the lead? Once that is clarified, I'm happy to give the tick. If it's essential to you that the hook mentions Winfried Heurich, then there's enough space for you to propose a variation of ALT2 that mentions him. MartinPoulter (talk) 13:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- We can drop NGL, it's just this kind of hymns written from the 1960s and recorded by a band - while typically hymns would be recorded by church choirs with organ, if at all. NGL seems to be a very German thing, - perhaps not a good idea to even mention it. That melody is exceptionally good, therefore I'd like to mention the composer. Busy until much later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I found a book source about NGL, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I take the point about the band but I still find ALT3 the more interesting hook to a lay reader with no background. The recently-added sentence and cite explaining the New Hymn are ideal, so I'm happy on that point and see no problem with mentioning "new hymn" in the hook. I take on board that the hook should mention the composer. Gerda, do you want to edit ALT3 or create a further hook that mentions Heurich? We're very very close to having this wrapped up. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- I try to say about my subjects something that could not be said about any other subject, and text and melody the same year is true for several hymns.
- ALT4: ... that "Meine engen Grenzen" ("My narrow limits") is a new hymn with text by Eugen Eckert and a melody by Winfried Heurich? - A friend died, I don't care about peanuts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sad to hear of your loss, Gerda. I see the way this is going and I'm happy to reverse my preference against ALT2. ALT2 is better than ALT4 and at the time I somewhat preferred ALT3 over ALT2 but you've explained that ALT2 does express a surprising fact, and we've established that each part of the hook is well-sourced, so I'm approving ALT2.
MartinPoulter (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Sad to hear of your loss, Gerda. I see the way this is going and I'm happy to reverse my preference against ALT2. ALT2 is better than ALT4 and at the time I somewhat preferred ALT3 over ALT2 but you've explained that ALT2 does express a surprising fact, and we've established that each part of the hook is well-sourced, so I'm approving ALT2.
- I take the point about the band but I still find ALT3 the more interesting hook to a lay reader with no background. The recently-added sentence and cite explaining the New Hymn are ideal, so I'm happy on that point and see no problem with mentioning "new hymn" in the hook. I take on board that the hook should mention the composer. Gerda, do you want to edit ALT3 or create a further hook that mentions Heurich? We're very very close to having this wrapped up. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think progress is being made. ALT2 is better than previous hooks but that recorded versions exist of a song isn't a surprising fact. Nowadays, it would be more surprising if a song had never been recorded. ALT3 is acceptable to me, so thanks evrik for moving things along. Whether or not the poem was planned to by a hymn isn't relevant. That the year of composition of the poem is the same as its year of being set to music is reported by ref 2 of the the current version of the article, but it's not immediately clear in the article that that's the relevant ref, so I'll add an inline citation after the claim in the article. (Switches to other tab) Done- now that ref has become ref 1. Trying to verify the statement that the hymn is "of the genre Neues Geistliches Lied" I'm getting stuck. I don't see the phrase "Neues Geistliches Lied" in the linked references. Gerda, could you clarify which ref that statement comes from, and better still add it inline in the lead? Once that is clarified, I'm happy to give the tick. If it's essential to you that the hook mentions Winfried Heurich, then there's enough space for you to propose a variation of ALT2 that mentions him. MartinPoulter (talk) 13:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
