Template:Did you know nominations/Misa Sine Nomine (Schidlowsky)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Misa Sine Nomine (Schidlowsky)
... that for his 1977 Misa Sine Nomine in memory of Víctor Jara, Leon Schidlowsky juxtaposed parts of the mass ordinary with texts from contemporary authors and the Torah, for speaker, choir, organ and percussion?several- Reviewed:
to come - Comment: I am sorry, late again. I should have nominated sooner but was on vacation, with the return train cancelled. Open to more dramatic suggestions about Jara having been tortured and murdered under Pinochet, also wanted: a hint at the composer being a Chilean-Israeli Jew, but using the Latin mass text, premiered in Germany. Unusual scoring.
- Reviewed:
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC).
- Reading article; will respond with review tomorrow (PST). I'm excited to see one of my paisanos here. :) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 03:59, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
|---|
| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
|---|
|
Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting:
- Other problems:
- See comments below.
QPQ: 
Overall: 
Article is new and long enough. Sources check out. QPQ remains to be done. Hook is good overall, but it ought to mention the composer before the dedicatee. I would advise against alternate hooks that focus on Jara or Schidlowsky's religious beliefs. The former because this article is not about them; the latter because Jewish people are not considered unusual in my motherland. For example, a third of my family (by marriage on my father's side of the family) is Jewish. Throughout Chilean history there have been Jewish people prominent in the country's politics and culture. (One of them is very famous in Chile and the rest of Latin America.) Moreover, Chile is not a monoethnic state: the country's liberator was an ethnic Irishman, one of its Olympic athletes was of German descent, its most famous musician of Scottish, its current head-of-state an ethnic Croatian, and so on. My own background is also mixed in a way that people outside of Latin America may find surprising. You may also want to note in this article and, if you'd like in potential alternative ALTs, that Schidlowsky's memorial work is a graphic score. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review! I agree with graphic score, but don't quite know where to put it in the hook. I like to see the composer active, and to see the piece as the first link, - to explain the order. I was surprise that a Jewish person would set the Latin mass, - whatever country, - also just explaining. Patience please about the graphic score. Having listened, I feel that the juxtapositions happen in one movement (track) although in the composer's list, they look like two. Help or suggestions for expressing that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Happenings Ten Years Time Ago. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:39, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Superb. If you amend your ALT to the title used on the composer's website, I'll approve: Misa [sic] Sine Nomine (In Memoriam Víctor Jara). If you want to make a new hook too, I'll be happy to look it over. Just keep in mind that what Schidlowsky did as a composer of Jewish descent was not unusual by 1977. Leonard Bernstein, for one, had already treated the Latin mass, arguably, at least as idiosyncratically. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 03:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am not inclined to trouble readers with a [sic] at the beginning of the hook, and in the article, it should at best be a footnote. You suspect it was an error on his side, and I assume he did it intentionally, and readers can find out in the article. We can do two things: write it exactly as on the composer's site with upper case and brackets), or say it freely which I prefer to avoid repetition of Jara's name, - we can't link from the bold article, and I feel a link is wanted in this case:
- ALT1a: ... that for his 1977 Misa Sine Nomine (In Memoriam Víctor Jara), in memory of Víctor Jara, Leon Schidlowsky juxtaposed parts of the mass ordinary with texts from contemporary authors and the Torah, for speaker, choir, organ and percussion?
- ALT1b: ... that for his 1977 Misa sine nomine in memory of Víctor Jara, Leon Schidlowsky juxtaposed parts of the mass ordinary with texts from contemporary authors and the Torah, for speaker, choir, organ and percussion?
- These are given that the article is moved back to Misa, the name in all references for this article.. Otherwise, the new title needs to be used, as DYK doesn't tolerate redirects. For uppercase or lowercase, we can throw a dice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- No, no, you misunderstand me. The "sic" was for my own use; I neither expected nor wanted you to use it on your DYK. Sorry for the miscommunication there. :)
- Since you want Víctor Jara mentioned and wikilinked, then you should amend your ALT to first just state the short name (Misa sine nomine), followed by Schidlowsky's name, that he composed it in memory of Jara, and finally the rest of the material you mentioned previously. But really the composer should be mentioned first before the dedicatee.
- I think it would also be helpful to include a hatnote in the article lead mentioning the discrepancies in the spelling of "missa/misa." Not all sources agree on the latter spelling; I sent you a link yesterday from the score's publisher which uses the correct Latin spelling. This hatnote should be neutral and not speculate that this spelling was intentional or, for that matter, unintentional. Only point out the discrepancies according to correct usage and various sources. As an aside, I'm guessing you may not be familiar with Spanish and Latin, which may be the reason why you're inclined to believe that Schidlowsky deliberately chose that particular word to spell idiosyncratically. But, again, as somebody who is a native in one and proficient in the other, as well as familiar with other instances of composers misspelling words in their manuscript scores, that possibility seems like... a stretch, to put it mildly. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, but off to a concert, and then two things waiting that I promised - patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Concert was great, promised things done (which took much longer than I anticipated). Please note that I supplied a qpq further up. As for the hook, I try to comply with your wishes:
- ALT2: ... that Leon Schidlowsky composed a work in memory of Víctor Jara in 1977 that he called Misa Sine Nomine, juxtaposing the mass ordinary with contemporary poetry and Torah verses, for speaker, choirs, organ and percussion?
- I saw the link to the published work, it looks sloppy (only one of the several authors, and only one piece of poetry named), - it didn't result in other sites using that spelling, and is not even consistent within their site. I adjusted this nom to the Missa spelling of the article title, even if I don't understand why an article would use a name that only one of the sources uses.
- I saw the QPQ earlier; no problem there. ALT2 is better, but still a bit convoluted. It would be more direct to say something like: "the [DYK subject], composed in 1977 by so-and-so in memory of such-and-such, etc., etc." Otherwise, as far as information and broad appeal go, you got it. Just a matter of cleaning up the grammar and syntax a bit.
- With respect to the missa/misa issue and the IMI site, perhaps their presentation may be more terse or glib than some may like, but that's besides the point. They are the work's sole publisher, which makes them an authoritative source. For reasons they have not disclosed or perhaps deem insignificant, they also have determined that the composer's spelling of "Misa" needed to be corrected. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:52, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- I prefer active voice over passive anytime, but obliging:
- ALT2a: ... that in the Misa sine nomine, composed in 1977 by Leon Schidlowsky in memory of Víctor Jara, texts from the mass ordinary are juxtaposed with contemporary poetry and Torah verses, set for speaker, choirs, organ and percussion?
- A scientific paper and several music publications use the composer's spelling, and I see no reason not to use the same, as the common name. The Frankfurt Cathedral was never a cathedral but it's the common name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're comparing apples with orangutans. ;)
Anyway, ALT2a is approved so you're all set. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:19, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're comparing apples with orangutans. ;)
- prep builder: please check if I made the correct changes after the page move. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:40, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, but off to a concert, and then two things waiting that I promised - patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Superb. If you amend your ALT to the title used on the composer's website, I'll approve: Misa [sic] Sine Nomine (In Memoriam Víctor Jara). If you want to make a new hook too, I'll be happy to look it over. Just keep in mind that what Schidlowsky did as a composer of Jewish descent was not unusual by 1977. Leonard Bernstein, for one, had already treated the Latin mass, arguably, at least as idiosyncratically. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 03:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
