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Template:Did you know nominations/Passions (Homilius)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

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Passions (Homilius)

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Homilius in 1782
Homilius in 1782
  • ... that the St Matthew Passion, composed by G. A. Homilius (pictured) in two parts of 50 movements, was first recorded in 1992, and performed in 2023, although it is not yet published? Source: several
    • Reviewed: to come
    • Comment: The article is about four Passions, and more details will follow I hope. For Good Friday, 7 April, please. Help wanted for perhaps include that both recording and performance were with the same bass soloist which made the performance possible. --

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Passions (Homilius); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - The source about the first recording mentions that it took place in 1992, not 1993, and also mentions that the work isn't signed. Credit was given based on stylistic grounds. I guess it should be mentioned in the article.
  • Interesting: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: QPQ needs to be performed before if gets promoted. The other issues are fixable. C messier (talk) 18:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing. I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Sally Buchanan. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
I fixes the year, - thank you for correcting. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: I'm also not sure about copyediting; the main article image needs a caution, the category is wrong (it is about a TV show), probably the title should be in italics, like Passions (Homilius). C messier (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
I fixed the category. Do you know how to add a caption without getting a frame? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:56, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
See {{Plain image with caption}}. C messier (talk) 11:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
C messier (talk) 17:01, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you! If you support the date, could you place it under Special occasions? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:01, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt and C messier: Could you please resolve the "citation needed" tags just added to the paragraph that has no citations, so we can try to get this promoted in time? Cielquiparle (talk) 06:07, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for noticing, Cielquiparle. I added two (duplicated) refs to the fact of choruses in homophony. The other (about among the last oratorio Passions ...) will need a new ref, but I have little time right now. If you need to promote now feel free to comment out the sentence. The ref will come later today or tomorrow. I plan to expand the article a bit so please keep watching. Was on vacation and haven't caught up yet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Cielquiparle, I found a ref among the ones there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:05, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Removing Query re: citation needed tag, which has been resolved. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:39, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
I have translated the source for much of the hook and I cannot see that this sentence in our article: "The Matthäuspassion (St Matthew Passion) "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld", HoWV 1.3, is a Passion in two parts of 50 movements, scored for six soloists, four-part choir and orchestra. It begins with the a chorale, "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld"" is supported by this citation The hook also suffers from tedious uninteresting details. Bruxton (talk) 23:12, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
The hook has several aspects. The idea of saying "two parts / 50 movements" was to express somehow neutrally that it is a rather giant piece. However, the recording has 85 movements even.[1], because the program lists some as a,b,c,d instead of a new number. I added the program now, planned for tomorrow. You can drop the "two parts / 50 movements" if you believe it's tedious. Bach's work - which many readers will know - has two parts and 67 movements. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
In our article the sentence: "It begins with the a chorale, "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld" is not in the reference. I translated the source again. That same source says that the "first recording of the work under Christoph Schoener in 1993", not 1992 as our hook claims." Also the claim that it was performed in 2023 is cited by this concert announcement, but we need confirmation that the concert actually occurred. I will propose a hook - but we need to confirm the 2023 concert.
Thanks Bruxton. It was first recorded in 1992, even if the recording wasn't released until 1993. If we're trusting Muziekweb as a source, it says 1992 as well. So the hook would either have to say "recorded in 1992" or "released as a recording in 1993" (*if* a source is added to the article that says that). I can't access the full newspaper articles, but judging from the headlines it seems like a more intriguing hook would be possible. I agree we shouldn't say 50 movements in the hook or the article, if none of the sources actually state that. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
I added another source to the article (review of other Homilius recordings) that confirms that St. Matthew Passion was recorded in 1992. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:38, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
@Bruxton: I'm getting more stuck on the sentence "Zu hören ist also die Erstaufführung dieses Werkes in der Region." Which to me seems like a "qualified first" – first performance in the region, not necessarily a world premiere. If you look at ALT0, it actually doesn't claim "first performed in 2023". So we shouldn't say that in ALT1 either. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Can't be a world premiere when recorded 20 years earlier. The unusual thing is that is still not printed. Sorry, first performed is plain wrong. It's kind of quirky that the performance could only happen because the same bass soloist sang in both recording and concert, and was able to retrieve the handwritten material from the recording, but it's not really part of the works' article, nor could I say it in 200 chars. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:52, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
I think ALT1a (renamed above) is ok. I've struck ALT1 so there's no confusion. I also added the online review of the 11 March 2023 performance to the article, which confirms that it took place. I wondered if we could make the hook more exciting by referring to "forgotten composer", "possible student of J. S. Bach" or "handwritten sheet music", but after trying it out a few ways, it feels like it just complicates the hook and probably isn't worth it. Not sure if that resolves all of the issues raised by Bruxton though, so I'm leaving it for Bruxton to confirm. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:13, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for trying and adding! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Moving the tick to the bottom. Bruxton (talk) 14:27, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
  • No fun comment: IMO, this hook fails interestingness. It's just some dates - what is special about 1992? The one vaguely interesting thing afoot - and it is only vaguely interesting - is the long gap in time, maybe, so I'd cut it down to just that in the name of punchiness and concision.
Also, this may be beyond the scope of DYK, but I'm not a fan of the article title either. Do people just call this topic "Passions" unadorned? Doubtful. It should probably be "Passions composed by G. A. Homilius" or the like. SnowFire (talk) 17:30, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments but ALT1b leaves out completely that although not published, it has been recorded and performed. Many unperformed manuscripts rest in archives. Passion is a generic title, like Oratorio. I worded the title after Passions (Bach). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm sure my proposal leaves out lots of facts, but that's okay. This is a hook, not an article. The "interesting" part - and as you already point out, it's really not THAT interesting since if anything it says that the work wasn't considered important like many other unpublished manuscripts - is the long gap in time. Keep the focus on that, don't bury the reader in details. I'll throw this out as an alternative:
The gap in time doesn't get more interesting by including all three of the recording, the public performance, and the (lack of) publication. That's pretty much expected if the work lay dormant for a long period. Just pick one of them as an example. None of the specifics are important, just the long gap itself.
On the title: The article title issue is probably best for the talk page as it doesn't directly impinge on DYK eligibility, but in general, Foo (composer) suggests a work specifically called or named "Foo." The article isn't about a work called "Passions", so it's not in keeping with usual Wikipedia naming style elsewhere. Compare something like The Star (Wells short story) which is about one specific story called "The Star", and H. G. Wells bibliography, which discusses a class of works together. SnowFire (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Also pinging @Aoidh:, since I see this got promoted just before I made my comment, for a third opinion on the best hook. SnowFire (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Striking ALT1d as plain wrong, not supported by a source. - For titles: we do say Piano Concerto (Reger), for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: If ALT1D is incorrect, then ALT1A (aka what you proposed) is problematic as well. My assumption upon reading it was that "first" applied across to the 2023 performance, but if that is not the case, your ALT1A is both unclear as well as trivial - if it is solely saying that there was Some Performance in 2023, that is beyond who-cares without more context. Most works get performed all the time, I had assumed "first" because it would be a meaningless fact otherwise. Reading up, I see User:Cielquiparle had some similar confusion, but if the 2023 performance was just that - a performance - it should absolutely not be part of the hook, which needs to be interesting. ALT1A should also be struck. SnowFire (talk) 23:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Following up on Talk page ping, proposing a new ALT hook:
ALT2: ... that for a rare performance of the St Matthew Passion by 18th-century composer Homilius in 2023, the conductor had to track down handwritten sheet music?
Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung via MSN (9 March 2023) Cielquiparle (talk) 05:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for a great offer. I am not a native speaker of English, so please forgive me possible misunderstandings; I really thought that the comma before the performance separated it enough from "first" to be clear. How is this: we use your hook for the conductor, and drop the performance for the Good Friday hook:
ALT3: ... that the St Matthew Passion, composed by G. A. Homilius (pictured) in the 18th century, was first recorded in 1992 but is not yet published?
Why I wanted to mention the performance? Because it impressed me. Any admin: could you please move the pic to the correct name File:Marktkirche Wiesbaden, Schiersteiner Kantorei, Homilius.jpg. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:15, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
On second thought, I'm not seeing any source that explicitly claims 1992 is the *first* recording, even though it seems very plausible that it's the first commercial recording of the full work (and as always, "first" is always hard to prove since it's like proving a negative). So either we just say "was recorded in 1992" or don't mention it. (The first recording of the St. Mark Passion. on the other hand, seems to have been explicitly marketed as a "world premiere". If someone has access to the liner notes of the 1992 recording of the St. Matthew Passion, it might be helpful.) Cielquiparle (talk) 09:18, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Could you perhaps word something general about the four Passions, the last oratorio Passions in the 18th century following Bach's tradition, being in rediscovery and/or don't have hide in comparison to the master's? Perhaps there's a review of the Berlin performance of 1 April? I think you deserve creation credit already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Upon seeing the new suggestions - I endorse Cielquiparle's ALT2, which DOES have a spicy and interesting fact. I disagree with ALT3 which still has the exact same problems that the older hook suggestions have of blurring the focus and failing interestingness. (Also agree that Cielquiparle deserves a thumbs up for going above & beyond here.) SnowFire (talk) 14:41, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    You didn't read that ALT2 is meant to to go with the conductor. It says almost nothing about the Passions.
    ALT3a: ... that the St Matthew Passion, composed by Gottfried August Homilius in the 18th century for the Kreuzkirche in Dresden, was recorded in 1992 but is not yet published? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    ALT4: ... that Gottfried August Homilius, who studied music in Leipzig, composed four Passions for the Kreuzkirche in Dresden, each based on one of the four Evangelists?
    ALT5: ... that Gottfried August Homilius composed four Passions for the Kreuzkirche in Dresden, in the tradition of Bach's Passions? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    To repeat what I wrote above: we are writing hooks, not articles. Hooks very often are tangentially related to the article, and the best hooks are not overstuffed with every random fact. ALT2 remains by far the best choice, picking one fact interesting to a broad audience and highlighting it; the ideal number of cool facts in a hook is usually one. The goal is not to add in every random fact - studying music in Leipzig isn't interesting, the specific church in Dresden isn't recognizable to 99.9% of readers. SnowFire (talk) 17:02, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    Do you understand that it's not April Fool but Good Friday, and the Passion of Jesus? - I'd prefer to say "studied with Bach" but while older bios say that, it's not sure. 5% of our readers will understand the hint. I wrote more DYK hooks than anybody else, so love it when I'm told what to do. I left DYK because I love it so much, but for Good Friday, I made an exception. The Kreuzkirche is interesting - destruction, rebuilding - let those 99% explore. ALT2 is for the conductor. I wanted to nominate on Friday, or let Cielquiparle do it, but perhaps I better do it right now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
    I'd advise a double hook, then, in the interest of saving time. If we're struggling to produce a viable hook on this nomination alone, I suggest we move to consolidate the two articles into the same hook. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 04:26, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
    Question, since it was specifically requested to run on Good Friday, why not incorporate that into the hook?
    ALT6: ... that Gottfried August Homilius wrote four Passions for Good Friday services during his time as music director of the Dresden Kreuzkirche?
    I'm sure someone can think of a better version, but I think specifically adding the Good Friday angle to the DYK entry that runs specifically on Good Friday might make it more hooky, people will go "Oh yeah that's today let me check that out". - Aoidh (talk) 05:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
ALT6 seems like a reasonable solution. Still looking for a source that explicitly states that he wrote four passions total and finding it oddly elusive, but maybe it's a reasonable conclusion to draw? Cielquiparle (talk) 08:42, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
See how blind I am, - I thought that "Passions" hints at Good Friday so strongly that we don't have to mention it. ALT6 is fine, but that he had one on each Gospel strikes me as worth mentioning, and/or the Bach comparison. He wrote at least four oratorio Passions, certainly a cantata Passion, and if more is less clear. This (external link) has a longer list, but some seem to be be just different versions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Okay how about removing the number of them and just having:
ALT6a: ... that Gottfried August Homilius wrote Passions for Good Friday services during his time as music director of the Dresden Kreuzkirche?
It's direct and to the point but also topical to the day it runs on. - Aoidh (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Acceptable. I will still miss his specialty, staying close to four gospels at a time when that was no longer fashionable, but people interested in such things will hopefully be hooked enough to click. His time was 1755 until his death in 1785, which may also be an impressive fact to mention. I just found a new source saying "Gottfried August Homilius belongs to the last generation of composers of the 18th century who, in addition to the popular Passion oratorios, continued to write oratorio Passions using biblical texts. From his pen a Passion for each of the four Gospels has survived." - Take from that what you like. I hope for more detail from the foreword of that edition. (Mark, Carus). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm usually for original names but in this case it might be a good idea to use the translation of the church's name:
ALT6b: ... that Gottfried August Homilius wrote Passions for Good Friday services during his time as music director of the Church of the Holy Cross in Dresden? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
I like that one better since it gives the English-language name, but I will leave it for someone else to add their checkmark of approval as they feel appropriate just to make sure it's promoted/approved by someone who isn't also then involved with moving it to the queue. - Aoidh (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
  • I agree that mentioning Good Friday itself is also acceptably "hook"y. (And for Gerda, "passions" to most English readers just reads as "strong emotions" at first glance.) I edited the second ALT6a to read ALT6b, though. I am still not a fan of writing "Passions" as if it was the name of a specific piece of music and slightly prefer the wording from ALT6, but both ALT6 and ALT6b look fine to me. I'd offer this subtle compromise as well in ALT6c that makes more clear it was four pieces of music, not one piece of music called "Passions":
    ALT6c: ... that Gottfried August Homilius wrote four Passions for Good Friday services during his time as music director of the Church of the Holy Cross in Dresden?
  • SnowFire (talk) 15:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
    @C messier, Cielquiparle, Bruxton, and Theleekycauldron: I apologize for the ping but the Queue that this hook is currently in it set to hit the main page in ~19 hours, would one of you mind either checking off on one of the ALT hooks proposed or giving them a no-go so that the hook can either be updated or pulled as appropriate? - Aoidh (talk) 04:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
@Aoidh and SnowFire: My personal preference is for ALT6b because of uncertainty around the number "four" which I haven't seen stated explicitly anywhere. I realise someone with domain knowledge may say "we can count the Passions listed in the article and it seems logical that there are four" but as Gerda was mentioning earlier, it feels like "at least four" might technically be more accurate, because of the many other works Homilius wrote. If someone had a copy of Gottfried August Homilius: Thematisches Verzeichnis der musikalischen Werk by Uwe Wolf (2014), and the book said there were four Passions, I would say cite that and go with "four" but without it, I would just leave the number out per ALT6b, which I understand does not sound as nice or as precise as ALT6c, but then...slight ambiguity is often a feature of DYK hooks, and Passions is also the name of the Wikipedia article. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:53, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, I've updated the hook in the Queue appropriately. - Aoidh (talk) 11:03, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
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