Template:Did you know nominations/Pierre Boulez

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Pierre Boulez

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Pierre Boulez in 1968

~~... that the French composer Pierre Boulez (pictured) founded the research centre IRCAM and conducted the Jahrhundertring at the centenary of the Bayreuth Festival?~~ Source: several

Reviewed: Old Music and the Slave Women

Improved to Good Article status by Dmass (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 20:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC).

Well. I came to review this article and after reading the hook, figured it would be a quick read. What an article! The hook hardly suffices for its breadth and depth. May I suggest something a little more hooky, like:
ALT1: ~~... that French conductor Pierre Boulez's (pictured) ear was so finely tuned he could detect "faulty intonation from the third oboe" in a complex orchestral piece?~~
Here is a full review: GA icon awarded on same day as nomination. New enough, long enough, neutrally written, no close paraphrasing seen. The article has 3 fair use images and the rest freely-licensed (including the one on this nomination). QPQ done. Yoninah (talk) 21:11, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! What the ALT says could practically be said about any good conductor. I tried to highlight that he is a founder and initiator, on top of composing and conducting. Dmass, you did all the work, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:22, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest in the article and your kind words! I'll be guided by you guys as I've had no experience of what the norm is. I can see that something a bit snappier could be good, but I think Gerda's point is a good one. My only thought is: how about the fact that the great French conductor started his career during the war, working in the orchestra pit of Paris theatres, sometimes including the Folies Bergeres. Or is that too cheesy? Dmass (talk) 18:10, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

That is cute - for those who already know him, but again not too uncommon. I thought to attract those who don't. Was very impressed by Götterdämmerung! - Someone better in English than I am could perhaps word something about him suggesting to blow up opera houses (that "a Beatles record is certainly cleverer (and shorter) than a Henze opera" and that "the most elegant" solution to opera's moribund condition would be "to blow the opera houses up"), and then conducting at the very traditional one in Bayreuth. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

That's an idea. How about: 'French conductor Pierre Boulez said (in 1966) that the world of opera was in such decline that the best solution would be "to blow the opera houses up".' Feel free to tweak this...

ALT2: ~~... that the French composer Pierre Boulez (pictured) suggested in the 1960s "to blow the opera houses up", and in 1976 conducted the Jahrhundertring at the centenary of the Bayreuth Festival?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the Jahrhundertring is an important opera? Then I suggest:
ALT3: ~~... that a decade after suggesting "to blow the opera houses up", the French composer Pierre Boulez (pictured) conducted the Jahrhundertring at the centenary of the Bayreuth Festival?~~ Yoninah (talk) 10:27, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! Opera? It was Wagner's Ring cycle in the centenary of its premiere, which was also the centenary of the Bayreuth Festival, - and then an all-French team (Boulez and those he invited) did it. It was a scandal then, but got around half an hour of applause in the last season, when it had become a legend, recorded on DVD, shown on TV. (Was a pictured DYK, btw) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm just trying to help you write a hook. Are you happy with ALT2? Then let's go with that. Yoninah (talk) 16:55, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

So am I, trying to help ;) - I am happy with ALT2 and ALT3, was just so surprised about the question. Jahrhundertring was one of few hooks (possibly the only one) when someone thanked me on my talk on DYK day for having written the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:14, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Although the expression 'Jahrhundertring' would, of course, be understood by Wagner lovers, a more general readership might appreciate it in English, hence my suggestion below. The link still takes them through the article. Hope that's helpful and thanks again to both of you for all your creative suggestions. Dmass (talk) 17:46, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

ALT4: ...... that a decade after suggesting that opera houses should all be "blown up", the French composer Pierre Boulez (pictured) conducted the centenary production of Wagner's Ring cycle at the Bayreuth Festival? Dmass (talk) 17:46, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with that, just a few thoughts: it's less "snappy", it may leave the readers with the impression that they now know it all, the DYK for Jahrhundertring (plain) received 12k views in 2013. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Can we just go with this
ALT3a: ~~... that a decade after suggesting opera houses should all be "blown up", the French composer Pierre Boulez (pictured) conducted the Jahrhundertring at the centenary of the Bayreuth Festival?~~ Yoninah (talk) 19:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

yes from me --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I prefer ALT4 - in order to understand the point of the DYK, most readers would have to click through to Jahrhundertring to find out what it is (as per Yoninah's question above). It really isn't a commonly-known thing outside a narrow circle of opera lovers (and it is in German). Surely the purpose of the hook is to get them to click through to Boulez, not to Jahrhundertring? Dmass (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Fine with me. Gerda? Yoninah (talk) 20:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I still believe they won't click Boulez if they think they know it all from just reading the hook, and that's what I meant to say. Sorry if it wasn't clear. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again, both. Could I ask what happens next with this? Do we get notified if it ends up being used? Dmass (talk) 15:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Dmass: first the nomination has to be approved, and then it waits for promotion to the main page. At that point, you will get a notice on your talk page.
Now that we have a hook (ALT4), I will conclude the review. The first hook fact, about blowing up the opera houses, is verified and cited inline. The second fact, that he conducted the centenary of the Ring cycle at Bayreuth, is cited to an offline source; hook ref AGF and cited inline. ALT4 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks very much for explaining that - and for your patience while we went to and fro, much appreciated! Dmass (talk) 19:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Dmass, explaining further: keep the nomination watched, - at some point if will be closed and move to the line-up for the Main page, first to "prep", then to a "queue" (where only admins can still make changes). A timetable says which queue will come when. Look here, every now and then. - Do you know this? (I don't.) Or this short summary? - Yoninah, you are soul of DYK, I guess it's time to say so formally ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! I didn't have this page watched... Dmass (talk) 21:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I do know the book, it's excellent! Essays by all the main people and a sort of diary of the rehearsals. Interesting to see that early review as well. I remember listening to Rheingold on the radio in the first year (before I knew my Wagner) and being astonished by the fact that the audience booed during the transition music from one scene to the next! Dmass (talk) 21:25, 2 June 2018 (UTC)