Template:Did you know nominations/Polnalyubvi

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Polnalyubvi

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... that Russian indie pop artist polnalyubvi bought her first guitar with money earned busking with her violin? Source: "Polnalyubvi — путь от квартирников на 80 человек до хита "Кометы"". The-Flow.ru (in Russian). Retrieved 2023-05-18.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Meron Estefanos

Created by Frzzl (talk). Self-nominated at 20:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Polnalyubvi; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

oh, wow, Frzzl, polnalyubvi! i stumbled upon "кометы" during the pandemic (and i don't even use tiktok) so it's nice to know that there is a page about her on en wikipedia now.
- general: article is new enough and long enough.
- policy:
  - article is neutral. earwig shows nothing of concern, but the sources are all in russian, so that doesn't say much.
  - spot checks of at least three different sources did not reveal any close paraphrasing. in fact, some of the sources did not seem to discuss the cited material in the first place. did you remember to check to make sure that all the sources cited actually support the statements for which they are cited? from what i can tell, this article made its way from ru wikipedia via es wikipedia, so i think all the sources should be checked to make sure that issues that may have originated on one of the other two wikipedias are not being reproduced here, and that errors that result from an article being translated twice are not being introduced either.
    - the bigpicture.ru source cited for the lead does not appear to mention her birthplace. also, as the source was archived in 2020, it presumably does not mention the album released in 2023 either.
    - the sobaka.ru source cited for the release of элегия does not appear to actually mention the album.
    - the the-flow.ru source cited for the release of the 2023 album does not appear to state when the album was released. the source was published in march but speaks of the release in past tense, while the article asserts that the album was presented in april.
  - the discography is only partially cited. my understanding of the dyk requirements is that everything in the article needs to be cited correctly. i admittedly don't recall reviewing an article with a discography at dyk before, but i would assume that there is no exception for discographies. (i know that recent death nominations at itn/c are often held up due to an unsourced discography.) is providing proper sourcing for the discography something that you are able to do?
- qpq: provided.
- hook:
  - hook is under 200 characters, interesting, and cited.
  - the source is an interview, so although i don't doubt that she earned the money for her guitar by busking, i would hesitate to state that she "had to buy her first guitar" with money made by busking, even though this may be how she described it herself. presumably, she could have earned the money in a number of other ways, and she did not have to spend it on a guitar. in the interview, she states that her mother was initially unsupportive, so there does not seem to have been any maternal pressure to buy a guitar; it appears to me that she wanted to buy a guitar herself. the article also does not use such wording, stating that she simply bought the guitar with money she earned via busking.
  - the hook uses "busking on the violin" while the article uses "with her violin". are both prepositions acceptable? i would normally think that "busking on" would be followed by a location (e.g., "busking on nevsky prospect"), but i am not sure about that.
  - if her stage name is virtually always presented uncapitalized, i think we can do the same in the hook, as per mos:lcitems. in addition, the {{lowercase title}} template can be used in the article itself to have the title presented in the same way there, if desired.
  - to address the above issues, i thought i might propose an alternative hook.
    alt0a: ... that Russian indie pop artist polnalyubvi bought her first guitar with money earned busking with her violin?
- points outside of the dyk criteria:
  - should "completed her studied and announced" be "completed her studies and announced" instead?
  - album names should be in italics, and song names in double quotes, as per mos:title. the article is also inconsistent regarding how it provides the original titles in russian: sometimes it uses the {{lang-ru}} template, while sometimes it just uses double quotes and italics. by the way, due to the proper name exception of mos:foreignitalic, proper names in a language other than english are generally not italicized, although they may be italicized for a reason other than simply not being in english. this means that, for this article, the russian titles of her songs should be in double quotes but not in italics, while the russian titles of her albums should be in italics (because they are album titles, not because they are in russian) and not in double quotes.

dying (talk) 12:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi dying, thanks for the feedback! I agree with all of your points, have fixed refs accordingly. New hook look good. I do have a problem with the Discography section though; I can't find a reliable source that doesn't involve user generated content. If you want I can just scrap the Singles and Collaborations subsections for being uncited, as they stand they also bring up issues with BLP. What do you think? Frzzl 21:47, 23/05/23

Frzzl, i am admittedly not an expert on what sources are considered reliable for music releases, but it appears that polnalyubvi has released much, if not all, of her discography on apple music, so if apple music is considered a reliable source, then here are a number of urls for you.

note specifically that "песня последней встречи" does not appear to have been released as a single, but as a track on a tribute album, along with tracks from other artists. also, a piano version of "кометы" was released as a separate single in 2022, but i don't know if it should be included. in addition, the song "новогодняя колыбельная" appears to have been released as a single, but it is not currently in the list of singles in the article. that last song is also credited to "смешарики", so i am not sure which section of the discography the single would be listed under.

admittedly, i believe that, if i start getting too involved with actually helping you satisfy the dyk requirements, i ended up being considered too involved and will have to recuse myself from the review, but hopefully, simply providing urls isn't a problem if i'm not adding them to the article myself. if any other editor feels otherwise, please let me know.

by the way, i recently realized that you are inconsistent with how you transliterated her surname. most of the article uses "Demeshchenko", but the lead and infobox both use "Demeschenko". if you haven't found anything indicating that the artist has a specific preference, i would assume that either transliteration should be fine, as long as the article is consistent. in addition, on a completely different note, the m24.ru source currently appears twice in the list of references. both of these minor points are technically outside the dyk requirements, so they won't hold up an approve, but i thought you might like to know.

anyway, once you've updated the article appropriately, i will go ahead with a full source review. this is not normally done for dyk nominations, but as the article failed three out of three spot checks, i feel that i would be shirking responsibility if i didn't perform one. i assume that there shouldn't be any issues if you have completed one yourself. dying (talk) 04:20, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the links, I've added the references. I think that although Apple Music is an affiliate source, it works fine. Fixed the m24.ru case as well as the transliteration mistake. I've had a look at the sources, so while I think things should now be fine, a check from you would be much appreciated. I don't think the piano version of "кометы" should be included as its own listing. Frzzl 12:41, 29 May 2023

dying, pinging you for a response to the update Frzzl has posted. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Hey Premeditated Chaos, Frzzl on an alt here. It's been a month since I last commented here, looks like dying just got too exasperated with my incompetence haha, nothing against them, I get it. I've not had this before, should I resubmit a nomination for a new review, or simply withdraw/abandon? Thanks - Frzzl (talk · contribs · count · logs)

whoops, sorry to keep you waiting, Frzzl! i have been busy elsewhere and hadn't originally budgeted time for a full source review when i first examined this article, so it took me a while to put a response together. somehow, i missed the earlier ping, as i would have at least given a status report had i noticed. anyway, the points i have to raise are below. note that the numbers used to refer to the sources are taken from this version of the article.

Born (2000-02-13) February 13, 2000 (age 24)

unsourced.

source 4 mentions it.

Years active 2016-present

unsourced. this seems questionable if her first album was released in 2017. she states that she started posting on instagram in 2016, but i don't know when she posted her first cover. as an aside, i believe the '-' should be an '–' to conform with mos:topresent, but that's just a style issue.

Labels Burning Machine [ru]

unsourced. ru wikipedia does not have an article with that title.

source 13 mentions "Booking Machine". ru wikipedia has an article with this title.

Russian singer of indie pop music

unsourced.

source 2 mentions the indie genre, but not specifically indie pop. it also states that polnalyubvi herself mentioned that she doesn't categorize herself under a specific genre. notably, she explicitly states that her work is not pop.

she released her first album in 2017

cited source mentions v is her debut album, but does not appear to mention the release year.

source 6 mentions the release year of v.

she began violin lessons at the Music School No. 1 in the city of Velikiye Luki

cited source does not appear to mention either the city or the name of the school.

source 4 mentions the city but not the name of the school.

Alongside violin, Demeshchenko studied singing, first in a choir and later with a private teacher.

cited source mentions she joined the choir but was expelled. it appears unclear whether she ever got the chance to study singing in the choir. it also appears to mention that she asked to study vocals by herself, but does not seem to state if she actually did. i'm not sure if this is the "private teacher" being mentioned; i'm admittedly not fluent in russian.

At thirteen, she graduated from the music school

cited source does not appear to mention that she graduated, just that she moved.

source 1 mentions that she graduated before moving.

Demeshchenko released her first original song, "Hush, you see, my love is sleeping" ... in 2016

cited source does not appear to mention the song at all.

source 4 mentions the song and its title, but does not appear to mention its release year.

At the age of sixteen, she began to be interested in time for print modelling

cited source does not appear to state that her interest in time for print began at age sixteen, but it does mention that she was participating in such modelling arrangements in 2016.

source 1 states that she was a model at age fifteen, but not that she was aware of time for print then.

source 3 states that she was a tfp model at age sixteen, but not that her interest in that type of modelling began at that age.

where she published photos and covers of her favourite music

cited source does not appear to state that the covers were of her favourite music.

at the anti-café Ziferblat in 2017

cited source does not appear to mention the year of the concert.

source 5 mentions the year.

on 31 August 2017, she released her first studio album, V, at age seventeen

cited source 2 does not appear to mention the debut album explicitly.

cited source 6 mentions that she recorded her album at age seventeen, and that it was released in 2017. it does not appear to mention the specific date in 2017 the album was released, nor does it appear to mention her age when it was released (as opposed to her age when it was recorded). one can reason that it must have been released when she was seventeen because she turned seventeen in 2017 before she recorded the album, so i'm not too worried about finding a source for that, but the specific date of the release still needs a source.

2021 - "Песня последней встречи"

cited source does not appear to state that this song was released as a single.

Frzzl, admittedly, i was surprised to find this many sourcing issues after you had completed your own review of the sourcing. considering how many issues i found in the first two paragraphs, i probably would have normally stopped and requested that you check the sources again. however, in this case, as i had been interested in reading the sources anyway, i ended up deciding to finish the review. let me know if you need any of the above clarified or any help resolving anything. dying (talk) 12:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comments Dying - I'd like to seriously apologise for all the mistakes I made in my review and the time that has waster; I've definitely learnt not to write biographies about subjects where sources are in a language in which I am not proficient. I've taken a fairly deletionist course of action regarding your points, but have added some new refs to address them as well. Again, apologies, and thank you for your comprehensive source review; hopefully this article is not suitable for DYK. Frzzl talk · contribs 20:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Frzzl, thanks for addressing all these issues! i admittedly was not sure if you were fluent in russian, but now that i know you aren't, i am impressed that you found two additional sources that covered some of the previously unsourced information. (i thought it was interesting that you had mentioned on your user page that you were adept at cyrillic script without mentioning having any skills in a language that normally used cyrillic.) anyway, i only have three minor additional points to note.

Demeshchenko released her first original song, "Hush, you see, my love is sleeping" ... in 2016

cited source does not actually appear to state that the song was released in 2016, but only that it was written ("была написана") in 2016.

unfortunately, i could not find a replacement source for you; all the sources i found seem to only state that it was written in 2016. i also checked the ru wikipedia and es wikipedia articles, and both also only assert that the song was written in 2016, not that it was released then. in this case, i would recommend just replacing "released" with "wrote".

she began in time for print modelling

i assume you had meant to remove the "in" here.

debutstudio album

similarly, i am assuming the missing space here is just a typo.

also, now that i am looking at the hook again, i realize that i had not caught the issue of describing her as as indie pop artist when i first reviewed the hook. (it is my fault for assuming that this assertion fell under wp:bluesky.) i am assuming that you'd agree that replacing "indie pop" with "indie" would be more appropriate, to reflect the changes made in the article.

by the way, i hope your takeaway is not that you shouldn't create articles based on sources in languages you aren't fluent in, but that you shouldn't translate articles from other wikipedias without carefully reviewing the result and expect it to easily pass a dyk review. i have created a number of articles based on sources in languages i am not fluent in, and would recommend it as a way to gain proficiency in a language. (i wouldn't recommend it for languages which you are completely unfamiliar with, though.)

anyway, you have been more than patient, and i don't want to hold up this nomination any longer, so i will approve (as i am assuming you had meant "now suitable" rather than "not suitable") with the caveat that the hook should be changed as described above. i trust that you will eventually address the other minor concerns.

alt0 approved, with the caveat that "indie pop" should be replaced with "indie". dying (talk) 07:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)