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Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Grace

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Montanabw(talk) 02:03, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

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Robert Grace

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Source is Heckscher (p=254) "In his autobiography, Franklin states that he presented a model of his invention to his friend Robert Grace, of Warwick Furnace, who found the casting of the plates for the fireplace profitable. Franklin himself sold a number of these stoves in Philadelphia, but he refused to secure a patent for his invention, stating that he believed it should be used for the benefit of humanity.
Source is Kane "Famous First Facts" -The first heating stove was the Pennsylvania fireplace, invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1742 and now called the Franklin stove. It was a wood-burning open box of cast-iron that stood out from the chimney and caused heat from its back and sides to be thrown into the room. Smoke escaped over the top of a flat chamber behind the fire, and passed downward between it and the real back of the stove, then into the chimney. Franklin refused to patent his invention. The stoves were manufactured by Robert Grace, the master of the Warwick furnace in Chester County, PA.

Created by Doug Coldwell (talk) and 7&6=thirteen (talk). Nominated by Doug Coldwell (talk) at 22:21, 21 March 2017 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Hook eligibility checkY for ALT2 but it should probably include a link to Franklin stove. Cannot confirm original or ALT1, the GBooks preview I see just says (copying another sources) that Grace was the man Franklin presented the stove to. Why not use Franklin himself as a source (ref #10)? Also, "paid no royalty" or "paid nothing" implies - incorrectly - that he did something wrong. Why not emphasize that Franklin wanted everyone to have access to the stove and thus did not want to patent it? Maybe something more interesting can be found as well. Regards SoWhy 19:57, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

@SoWhy: Hook is linked to Franklin stove as suggested. I believe that Footnote "A" covers that of Franklin wanting everyone to have access to the stove. Withdrew original and ALT1 hooks, to go then with ALT2. Any other concerns? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
with ALT2 and no prejudice against someone finding a way to write a hook that incorporates both them being the first such stoves and Franklin wanting everyone to be able to have one. Regards SoWhy 06:34, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I was going to promote this nomination, but really, ALT2 will not do, because the claim that this was the "first" heating stove is not borne out by the article, so a different hook is needed. There is also a "citation needed" tag that needs attention. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:45, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Cwmhiraeth: Could you please elaborate? The article contains the sentence "He gave a model to Grace to use as a template for making them for a profitable casting business for manufacturing the first heating stove" with ref #6 explicitly confirming it. Also, I cannot find any citation needed tag. Regards SoWhy 06:43, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
  • My mistake about the "citation needed" tag, it was in the Franklin stove article. If you look at that article you will see mention of Franz Kessler and a stove he designed in 1618. One of the sources states "Quite early in the history of the Province the Germans introduced stoves, and from the beginning of the industry stoves and firebacks were cast at the blast furnaces" and later "One of the most important changes that took place in heating stoves was the invention by Franklin in 1742 of his fireplace." So Franklin's stove was not the first heating stove. You could alter the hook to
  • Nice catch. I'd go with ALT4. @Doug Coldwell: Thoughts? Regards SoWhy 08:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Then let's with ALT4. Regards SoWhy 10:20, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
    • The article doesn't actually say anything about it being innovative. SL93 (talk) 04:34, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@SoWhy: ALT3 looks good to me as an option.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I think ALT4 is more hook-y. Maybe you can add a line about it to the article? Franklin stove seems to already contain material about it. Regards SoWhy 10:16, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@SoWhy: I have copy edited the article accordingly and I believe ALT4 would apply now.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Changing the text alone won't suffice. The ref cited (Heckscher p.254) does not mention the stove to be "innovative". Please add a citation to support this wording. Regards SoWhy 10:34, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@SoWhy: I have added a reference. Will that work?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:54, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Looks good to me but pinging @SL93: for their opinion. Regards SoWhy 12:18, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
It's sourced to a WordPress blog which is typically not a reliable source. SL93 (talk) 12:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@SL93:@SoWhy: In this particular case it refers back to Franklin's explanation of the Pennsylvania Stove and its innovative features - a book held by the Library of Congress. Footnote "A" explains this further.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:37, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
The footnote doesn't say innovative. Saying so is synthesis if it's not said. SL93 (talk) 12:40, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@SL93:@SoWhy: Would ALT5 or ALT6 or ALT7 work? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:05, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that ALT5 will work, but not ALT6 and ALT7 because the article doesn't use the word conventional. SL93 (talk) 19:13, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@SL93:@SoWhy: ALT5a would work for me.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay, I've been busy with work. I think both ALT5 and ALT5a work based on the text. I'd propose
  • ALT5b ... that in 1842, Robert Grace was the first manufacturer of the Franklin stove which was more efficient in producing heat than an open fireplace?
as well since having the name Franklin in the hook might attract more viewers.
ready with ALT3 or ALT5(a|b), I'll let the user compiling the queue decide which works best. Regards SoWhy 16:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but the hook fact stated in ALT5a and ALT5b (and earlier alts) is based on a source that really doesn't say this. The source says the fireplace "avoided drafts, gave more even temperatures throughout the room, and checked loss of heat through the chimney". If we quoted one of these features, we'd be fine, but saying it "produced heat" more efficiently than an open fireplace is not based on the source. I wonder if we could write it this way:
@SoWhy:@Yoninah: As far as I am concerned, this is agreeable to me. I was bold and re-labeled it ALT8 since we already have an ALT6 & ALT7.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Since I changed the fact in ALT8, we need another editor to sign off on it. Pinging @SoWhy:. Yoninah (talk) 14:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Proposing ALT9 with Franklin - whoever gives green tick can strike the one NOT selected.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:42, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Both ALT8 and ALT9 are acceptable and have inline citations for the hook facts. I prefer ALT9 as mentioning Franklin. Other aspects of the review as per SoWhy. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:08, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Green tickYPromoting ALT 9. Montanabw(talk) 02:03, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
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