- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by valereee (talk) 19:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
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Ruth Hesse
edit... that mezzo-soprano Ruth Hesse, who created a role in Henze's Der junge Lord at the Deutsche Oper Berlin, performed the Nurse in Die Frau ohne Schatten at the Royal Opera House and the Salzburg Festival?Source: [1] and others
- Reviewed: Hermann Herlitz
- Comment: Article comes with a rich list of roles and detailed recordings which I have no time to reference bit by bit.
Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 22:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC).
There's just too much information being crammed here in the hook and it's rather difficult to read. I understand that you want to show the variety of roles she's had, but there might be another way to word the hook if you really wish to go in that direction. Will be suggesting alternatives below, the first based on ALT0 and the second is based on how she's performed internationally. I've also suggested an ALT3 but I honestly don't think it might appeal to non-classical music fans:
- ALT1
... that among the roles that mezzo-soprano Ruth Hesse has performed include the Nurse in Die Frau ohne Schatten and a part in the premiere performance of Henze's Der junge Lord? - ALT2 ... that German mezzo-soprano Ruth Hesse has performed at opera concerts in Spain, Sweden, Russia, the United States, South America, and Japan?
- ALT3 ... that German mezzo-soprano Ruth Hesse was appointed a Kammersänger in 1982?
- ALT1
- Another issue I have with the original hook is the words "created a role" - did she really invent the role or merely played it? I don't think I've ever heard the word "create" used in that sense. I will be leaving comments on article wordings later, including apparent typos and redundant words. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:07, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- You should know me for long enough not to waste time on proposals such as ALT2 and ALT3. A laundry list of places is not even wanted in articles of project opera, and the year of Kammersängerin says nothing if no birth date is supplied. ALT1 is possible but I don't see how not mentioning the highly notable and well-known places the things happened makes it better. Drop the ROH if you have to, - it was meant to illustrate that it's more than German speaking. The Salzburg performance, recorded, and alongside the most prominent singers of the time, should be mentioned, I'd say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Remember that we are writing for a broad audience, and non-opera readers and editors are unlikely to see the significance of those factors. What may be obvious to those in the scene may not be to those who don't know. With that said, I can't really see any way else of moving forward here: suggesting more alternatives seems difficult considering the content in the article. Thus, I'll be requesting a second opinion here on ALT0 and ALT1. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- Non-opera readers will not be interested in the article at all, and we should not lure them into it, imho. Readers can expect that something said in a hook has relevance, and if curious enough, they can click and find out the details. What we should not do is tell those who may be interested nothing more than a boring list of places without any music, and you can almost exchange the same list from one singer to the next. Remember ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, here for a second opinion. ALT0 is not bad, but it's not clear what "created a role" means. I read the article and was amazed by all the places this woman performed. Maybe mention that, plus one role, like:
- ALT2:
... that mezzo-soprano Ruth Hesse, who sang in major opera houses around the world over a 30-year career, performed the Nurse in Die Frau ohne Schatten at the Royal Opera House and the Salzburg Festival?Yoninah (talk) 13:04, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
- Better that than nothing, but ... creating a role is much stronger, - it means singing the role in the world premiere, and this is an important opera. Check out DYKs for opera, - many "created", DYK readers should know by know ;) - Rather mention only one place for the Nurse (which is a good role, but no lead character. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
OK, so let's go back to ALT0. Full review: New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. As all sources are foreign-language, unable to check for close paraphrasing. Foreign-language ALT0 hook refs AGF and cited inline. QPQ done. ALT0 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 13:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
- Non-opera readers will not be interested in the article at all, and we should not lure them into it, imho. Readers can expect that something said in a hook has relevance, and if curious enough, they can click and find out the details. What we should not do is tell those who may be interested nothing more than a boring list of places without any music, and you can almost exchange the same list from one singer to the next. Remember ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- You should know me for long enough not to waste time on proposals such as ALT2 and ALT3. A laundry list of places is not even wanted in articles of project opera, and the year of Kammersängerin says nothing if no birth date is supplied. ALT1 is possible but I don't see how not mentioning the highly notable and well-known places the things happened makes it better. Drop the ROH if you have to, - it was meant to illustrate that it's more than German speaking. The Salzburg performance, recorded, and alongside the most prominent singers of the time, should be mentioned, I'd say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Due apologies, but due to the wording and hook interest concerns raised at WT:DYK, I've pulled the hook from Prep. @Gerda Arendt and LouisAlain: please feel free to suggest new hooks; I've also unstruck ALT2 and ALT3 for discussion purposes (ALT1 remains struck as it's mostly a simplification of ALT0). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:07, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Nothing from me. One of these days I'll go on DYK strike, and some will be delighted. You can cut the hook after the role creation, and you can say a clumsy "performed the role in the world premiere" instead of a simple "created the role" (but she really got famous for singing the Nurse). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- like this:
- ALT3: ... that mezzo-soprano Ruth Hesse performed the role of Frau von Hufnagel in the world premiere in Henze's Der junge Lord at the Deutsche Oper Berlin? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- I'm going to be honest here, ALT3 does not solve the issues raised in the WT:DYK discussion. In the end, it's basically another "Actor X played Role Y" role, a format that editors such as Khajidha have objected to. As advice, instead of using writing a hook that goes "Actor X played the role of Y in opera Z", you can try a hook that goes something like "Actor X did Action Y", "Actor X is a Thing Y", or even "Actor X, who is known for Role Y, did Action Z". You don't have to limit yourself with acting roles, especially if there is plenty of material to go by. With Ruth's case, I see that she performed at many locations around the world, and I still believe a hook based on that (i.e. some variation of ALT2) has potential. I have seen your non-opera related hooks and most of them are perfectly acceptable, so I know you can do it. If you're having difficulty with wordings, you are always free to ask for assistance in writing or suggestions. Just remember just to keep a broad audience in mind when doing this, not only classical music fans ;) Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Performing in the world premiere, especially of a notable work, is not just actor plays role. The playbill is pictured, did you see? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Gerda. Performing in the world premiere of a notable work is not simply "Actor X played Y role" How about:
- ALT4... that Ruth Hesse sang in the world premiere of Henze's opera Der junge Lord?
- Frankly the original hook and Alts were rather cluttered with too much extraneous information crammed in. Sometimes less is more and is more likely to tempt the reader find out more. Voceditenore (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Just adding that this whole business, and especially the lengthy farrago at Wikipedia talk:Did you know, reminds me why I never nominate any articles that I've written for DYKs—it's an utter time sink. Voceditenore (talk) 17:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- My main concerns with ALT4 is that it has very limited appeal: it might be of interest to classical music enthusiasts, but there is much doubt on whether the average reader would care. Had opera not been a niche topic, or if only Der jungle Lord was a more well-known property among the masses (i.e it has name recall to those unfamiliar with opera), then perhaps ALT4 could have worked. As it stands, I don't think it does right now, and reading through the article again, I'm starting to become skeptical that there could ever be a suitable hook that can be used from the article. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- As it happens, I saw the opera today, and found that her role is quite substantial. I don't think it's the goal of DYK to rehash the same familiar operas all the time, - let people explore others as well. This is by a major composer of the 20th century, and if it's not knwn well, let's change that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- It does not matter if the role is important or not, if readers don't know or care then it's not a good option. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:42, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- As it happens, I saw the opera today, and found that her role is quite substantial. I don't think it's the goal of DYK to rehash the same familiar operas all the time, - let people explore others as well. This is by a major composer of the 20th century, and if it's not knwn well, let's change that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- My main concerns with ALT4 is that it has very limited appeal: it might be of interest to classical music enthusiasts, but there is much doubt on whether the average reader would care. Had opera not been a niche topic, or if only Der jungle Lord was a more well-known property among the masses (i.e it has name recall to those unfamiliar with opera), then perhaps ALT4 could have worked. As it stands, I don't think it does right now, and reading through the article again, I'm starting to become skeptical that there could ever be a suitable hook that can be used from the article. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Gerda. Performing in the world premiere of a notable work is not simply "Actor X played Y role" How about:
- Performing in the world premiere, especially of a notable work, is not just actor plays role. The playbill is pictured, did you see? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- I'm going to be honest here, ALT3 does not solve the issues raised in the WT:DYK discussion. In the end, it's basically another "Actor X played Role Y" role, a format that editors such as Khajidha have objected to. As advice, instead of using writing a hook that goes "Actor X played the role of Y in opera Z", you can try a hook that goes something like "Actor X did Action Y", "Actor X is a Thing Y", or even "Actor X, who is known for Role Y, did Action Z". You don't have to limit yourself with acting roles, especially if there is plenty of material to go by. With Ruth's case, I see that she performed at many locations around the world, and I still believe a hook based on that (i.e. some variation of ALT2) has potential. I have seen your non-opera related hooks and most of them are perfectly acceptable, so I know you can do it. If you're having difficulty with wordings, you are always free to ask for assistance in writing or suggestions. Just remember just to keep a broad audience in mind when doing this, not only classical music fans ;) Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately, after much thought, I simply see no possible path forward for this nomination. An actor playing a role in a work that, frankly is not exactly a household name or is well-known outside of a niche (in this case classical music enthusiasts), does not make grounds for a good or catchy hook. I've gone through the article looking for something that could appeal to a broad audience, and the only option that in my opinion could have worked (the hook about her performing around the world) has been rejected. Taking these into account, it seems that there is no option but to mark this as unsuccessful. Sadly, not every article has information that can work out as a DYK hook and this seems to be one of them. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- As if the discussion wasn't already long enough. Back to WP:DYK. - Not a household name, and no need for one, we have a link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5 , how about one last stab at a hook...
- ALT5... that the The Musical Times critic described Ruth Hesse's performance as the Nurse in Die Frau ohne Schatten at the Royal Opera House as "tirelessly ingenious"?
- I've just added it to the article with what is now reference 3: Anderson, Robert (August 1975).... The full quote is "Ruth Hesse's Nurse, tirelessly ingenious and vocally in splendid command, deserved all the shadows she could get; it was good news she was to remain on earth.". Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:30, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that's fine. Much better than the hooks that have been proposed before, and also pretty eye catching to non-audiences. Though some more content in the article about precisely how her performance was "tirelessly ingenious" would be nice. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- It seems pretty long though, how about shortening it to:
- ALT5a... that a The Musical Times critic described Ruth Hesse's performance as the Nurse in Die Frau ohne Schatten as "tirelessly ingenious"?
- Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:38, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- As if the discussion wasn't already long enough. Back to WP:DYK. - Not a household name, and no need for one, we have a link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, the shortened version ALT5a is much better. I've now contextualised the quote somewhat. The article now reads: Hesse made her Royal Opera House debut in 1969 as the Nurse in Richard Strauss's Die Frau ohne Schatten, a lengthy and vocally demanding role depicting a morally ambiguous character.[1][3] When she reprised the role there in 1975, the critic for The Musical Times described her performance as "tirelessly ingenious and vocally in splendid command".[4] I'm afraid that's the best I can do. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:20, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, I think we should be good to go now with ALT5a, I also like the description of the role itself in the article. Rest of the review per Yoninah. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:40, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, the shortened version ALT5a is much better. I've now contextualised the quote somewhat. The article now reads: Hesse made her Royal Opera House debut in 1969 as the Nurse in Richard Strauss's Die Frau ohne Schatten, a lengthy and vocally demanding role depicting a morally ambiguous character.[1][3] When she reprised the role there in 1975, the critic for The Musical Times described her performance as "tirelessly ingenious and vocally in splendid command".[4] I'm afraid that's the best I can do. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:20, 27 May 2019 (UTC)