- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Amakuru (talk) 13:20, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
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Viola Brand
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Viola Brand doing a stunt on her bike
... that artistic cyclist Viola Brand never won the World Championship but still was invited to the Ellen show?Source: [1] & [2]ALT1:... that Viola Brand has won 17 medals in artistic cycling and was invited to the Ellen show?Source: [3]
- Comment: Since I withdrew my previous nomination, this is now my final nomination without the need for a QPQ.
Moved to mainspace by Possibly (talk), RamónMC (talk), and LordPeterII (talk). Nominated by LordPeterII (talk) at 10:17, 12 February 2021 (UTC).
delighted by a nomination which includes "artistic cycling". The article is okay, but the list of results, i.e. the whole "Personal best" section, needs referencing. It could use being updated too, it says "as of December 2018" she was studying, well it's Feb 2021. It's not essential but would improve things. Regarding the choice of hook, an appearance on the The Ellen DeGeneres Show is mildly interesting, but it'd be more interesting (I think) if we reinforced that Viola is German and only 26, and I think you need to use the proper title of the show rather than "the Ellen show". My preference is for ALT1 right now because I imagine plenty of sportspeople have been on Ellen without being world champions. QPQ not required, noted. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Alright, first a ping to Possibly and RamónMC, because I am not sure if being mentioned in a nomination does ping you automatically, and you might possibly have missed that this is at DYK.
- @The Rambling Man: Okay, I see RamónMC has already added a ref for the table, but I am not 100% happy with it since it is to a javasript-heavy (or whatever) site, where you have to click several times within the same URL to access the actual results you are looking for. I'll try to look for a way to directly link to her results (so it can e.g. be archived by the IAbot). As for updating, I'll take a look - it previously stated that she started studying in 2015, so it's already closer to now. I'm not sure if we have reliable sources following her studies since she has now quit her career, but I'll take a look. I'll also revisit the hook as per your suggestions. Will report back once that is done! --LordPeterII (talk) 09:31, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I had forgotten about this article; it was a two-sentence stub when I started it. Congrats and thanks RamónMC, who has improved it so much. I think Alt2 is much better. Nothing more to add.Possibly (talk) 09:37, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- LordPeterII no problem, ping me when you're ready for me to re-visit. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: Hey, so I'm sorry this took so long. I've been sucked into real life and... whatever, I'm back. The article is in a pretty good state now imo, and I've managed to find a way to link directly to the competition results (though alas IAbot still seems to have problems with archiving these). ALT0 is a bad choice indeed, so I'd prefer not to use it after all. I've also struck ALT1 because while the "17 medals" thing was quoted in an old version of the article, it does no longer fit with our new wikitable - and I think the sources counted some subset, or included medals from her youth. Anyway, I hereby propose an adjusted hook, as well as a new hook:
- ALT1a:... that German artistic cyclist and three-time Vice World Champion Viola Brand (pictured) was invited to The Ellen DeGeneres Show, which she used to watch to improve her English? Sources: [4] & [5]
- ALT2:... that German artistic cyclist and three-time Vice World Champion Viola Brand (pictured) retired from professional sports at the age of 25 to focus on her social media? Sources: [6] & [7]
- And since we apparently have pictures (thanks for adding these RamónMC), I would like to try to include them as well - but I do not know how. The Rambling Man, could you tell me how to add them to the nomination? I'm thinking of this pic here File:Viola Brand artistic cycling (cropped).jpg since it's the most colourful, but maybe File:Viola Brand Worldchampionship.jpg would also be a good option since it shows her in competition. I'd leave the choice to you. --LordPeterII (talk) 22:08, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Hi there. I have only added images while creating a nomination. Best bet is to take a look at the coding for one of the existing nominations with an image and replicate that.
- With regard to this hook, a few things remain for me. We don't really use "Vice World Champion", more like runner-up at the World Championship. I certainly prefer ALT1a, but artistic cycling is a redirect and The Ellen DeGeneres Show needs to be in italics. The article is in good condition, I'll have to assume good faith on the sources as my German is weak. No QPQ required. Let's just tweak the hook(s) to take into account my comments (if you agree) and we're almost there. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:45, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- LordPeterII (talk · contribs) any advance on this? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: Yup, sorry, was away again. Been on a bit of a wikibreak, but it's not good leaving things lying around unfinished. I am not sure what you mean about the redirect - I added that one myself, so that I wouldn't have to use piped links. Since this is customary for a lot of articles (e.g. jogger->jogging; tennis player->tennis), I thought it would be fine. I can link via piped link if that is preferable?
- ALT1b:... that German artistic cyclist and three-time World Championship runner-up Viola Brand (pictured) was invited to The Ellen DeGeneres Show, which she used to watch to improve her English?
- ALT2a:... that German artistic cyclist and three-time World Championship runner-up Viola Brand (pictured) retired from professional sports at the age of 25 to focus on her social media?
- Please do also check the picture which has appeared at the top (including the caption) - if you dislike it, here is the alternative again: File:Viola Brand Worldchampionship.jpg. Also not sure if "World Championship runner-up" or "World Champion runner-up" would make more sense (btw it was Google Translate that gave me "Vice World Champion", and I wasn't native enough to question that :P), so it might need tweaking once more if I picked the wrong one. --LordPeterII (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I suspect we need something like:
- ALT1c: ... that German three-time artistic cycling World Championship runner-up Viola Brand (pictured) was invited to The Ellen DeGeneres Show, which she used to watch to improve her English?
- What do you think? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 16:44, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yes The Rambling Man, that sounds great. I tried to figure out how to fit the info in a sentence that would still read fine, and ALT1c accomplishes that. Any feedback on the picture? --LordPeterII (talk) 16:52, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- That's great! Just thank LordPeterII for improving the article RamónMC 11:38, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I think we're good to go with ALT1c. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- That's great! Just thank LordPeterII for improving the article RamónMC 11:38, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yes The Rambling Man, that sounds great. I tried to figure out how to fit the info in a sentence that would still read fine, and ALT1c accomplishes that. Any feedback on the picture? --LordPeterII (talk) 16:52, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I suspect we need something like:
- @The Rambling Man: Yup, sorry, was away again. Been on a bit of a wikibreak, but it's not good leaving things lying around unfinished. I am not sure what you mean about the redirect - I added that one myself, so that I wouldn't have to use piped links. Since this is customary for a lot of articles (e.g. jogger->jogging; tennis player->tennis), I thought it would be fine. I can link via piped link if that is preferable?
- LordPeterII (talk · contribs) any advance on this? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: Hey, so I'm sorry this took so long. I've been sucked into real life and... whatever, I'm back. The article is in a pretty good state now imo, and I've managed to find a way to link directly to the competition results (though alas IAbot still seems to have problems with archiving these). ALT0 is a bad choice indeed, so I'd prefer not to use it after all. I've also struck ALT1 because while the "17 medals" thing was quoted in an old version of the article, it does no longer fit with our new wikitable - and I think the sources counted some subset, or included medals from her youth. Anyway, I hereby propose an adjusted hook, as well as a new hook:
@RamónMC and Black Kite: I have pulled this from prep 5 and reopening it temporarily, given the new information given at WT:DYK, that this is in fact a properly licensed picture. In order to complete the process, Ms Brand should email the WMF using the template at [8]. Once that's done (or if you decide you want it to run sooner without a picture) I can repromote it with its picture. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 12:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru, The Rambling Man, Black Kite, and LordPeterII: I have read that LordPeterII, as nominator, has received a warning of incomplete DYK nomination in his talk page from DYKHousekeepingBot (25-3-21). Well, the present problem about pictures is not a problem. I only can say the following: Viola Brand knows the situation. She has uploaded the pictures herself and ... I think that she is not going to send any email form ... I think ... (and a notice ... in portrait photos, the rights belong to the person portrayed in the picture, not the photographer ...). RamónMC 12:35, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
- Then I guess the only way forward is to have the hook run without an image. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man, Amakuru & RamónMC: I was away from Wikipedia completely and have literally just become aware of this problem. I have contacted Brand via e-mail about the issue (in German), as I also am quite confident that she uploaded the pictures herself. If I haven't heard back from her within a week, I shall scrap the picture from the DYK. If you could allow this final delay, I'd really like to finish this properly. --LordPeterII (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- OK thanks. Incidentally, I don't think RamónMC is correct above when they say "in portrait photos, the rights belong to the person portrayed in the picture, not the photographer". From reading [9], it seems that under US copyright law (which is what ultimately matters for Wikipedia), the copyright remains with the photographer even if it's a portrait of an individual, except under limited circumstances where the photographer is employed, or where they explicitly transfer the copyright to someone else in writing. We'd need some confirmation from Brand that something to that effect has taken place, or else a release from the photographer themselves. — Amakuru (talk) 14:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru and LordPeterII: Well, when I say: "... in portrait photos, the rights belong ..." this means that the rights always belong to the person portrayed. For the photographer to have the righs, the person portrayed must give those rights. I usually work with models and I know how that works ... In this case, it is the person herself who uploads the photos. No problem. RamónMC 15:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru and RamónMC: Good news everyone! I have received answer from Brand, who confirmed that she uploaded the pictures herself and is going to send the email to OTRS. As to the copyright question: The template has two options, either "creator" or "sole owner" of the media. I think Brand definitely is not the former, but may well be the latter. In any case, if she herself confirms to have uploaded the pictures and claims ownership of their copyright, I am pretty sure Wikimedia can accept them. But I guess the issue is with OTRS now – I hope there is sort of a confirmation once they have received and accepted the e-mail from Brand? --LordPeterII (talk) 10:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Also @Amakuru please note that some editing has been done on the article between its approval and the current revision by RamónMC. I shall do some minor adjustments still (because e.g. one source is now duplicated), but I do not think that this should impact much. Her place of birth was rightfully corrected, so thx @RamónMC for that! I don't think corrections as these should impact the DYK approval, but just wanted to make sure this DYK does not stumble again. --LordPeterII (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @LordPeterII: oh that's great news, thanks. I have to say I still don't follow RamónMC's point above - they've repeated the same line as before about the person in the portrait having the copyright, and I already provided some evidence that that's an incorrect statement. The photographer always has the copyright, unless he or she was directly in the employment of Brand. I guess if Brand emails OTRS and they confirm it as good, then that's not really our business at our point probably. @The Rambling Man: do you have an opinion on that? — Amakuru (talk) 22:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, unless this is a reference to some local legislation, as far as I know the person taking the photograph owns the rights, not the subject matter. And even if the employment of Brand, I strongly expect an OTRS confirmation would still be required. Until the images are licensed in a fashion which is satisfactory for a WMF project, we either wait or go with this DYK without the image. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 06:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru and The Rambling Man: Seems like the OTRS for the pictures was accepted. Yay! I hope this means that the article can get re-promoted now :) --LordPeterII (talk) 20:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, unless this is a reference to some local legislation, as far as I know the person taking the photograph owns the rights, not the subject matter. And even if the employment of Brand, I strongly expect an OTRS confirmation would still be required. Until the images are licensed in a fashion which is satisfactory for a WMF project, we either wait or go with this DYK without the image. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 06:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @LordPeterII: oh that's great news, thanks. I have to say I still don't follow RamónMC's point above - they've repeated the same line as before about the person in the portrait having the copyright, and I already provided some evidence that that's an incorrect statement. The photographer always has the copyright, unless he or she was directly in the employment of Brand. I guess if Brand emails OTRS and they confirm it as good, then that's not really our business at our point probably. @The Rambling Man: do you have an opinion on that? — Amakuru (talk) 22:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Also @Amakuru please note that some editing has been done on the article between its approval and the current revision by RamónMC. I shall do some minor adjustments still (because e.g. one source is now duplicated), but I do not think that this should impact much. Her place of birth was rightfully corrected, so thx @RamónMC for that! I don't think corrections as these should impact the DYK approval, but just wanted to make sure this DYK does not stumble again. --LordPeterII (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru and RamónMC: Good news everyone! I have received answer from Brand, who confirmed that she uploaded the pictures herself and is going to send the email to OTRS. As to the copyright question: The template has two options, either "creator" or "sole owner" of the media. I think Brand definitely is not the former, but may well be the latter. In any case, if she herself confirms to have uploaded the pictures and claims ownership of their copyright, I am pretty sure Wikimedia can accept them. But I guess the issue is with OTRS now – I hope there is sort of a confirmation once they have received and accepted the e-mail from Brand? --LordPeterII (talk) 10:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru and LordPeterII: Well, when I say: "... in portrait photos, the rights belong ..." this means that the rights always belong to the person portrayed. For the photographer to have the righs, the person portrayed must give those rights. I usually work with models and I know how that works ... In this case, it is the person herself who uploads the photos. No problem. RamónMC 15:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- OK thanks. Incidentally, I don't think RamónMC is correct above when they say "in portrait photos, the rights belong to the person portrayed in the picture, not the photographer". From reading [9], it seems that under US copyright law (which is what ultimately matters for Wikipedia), the copyright remains with the photographer even if it's a portrait of an individual, except under limited circumstances where the photographer is employed, or where they explicitly transfer the copyright to someone else in writing. We'd need some confirmation from Brand that something to that effect has taken place, or else a release from the photographer themselves. — Amakuru (talk) 14:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man, Amakuru & RamónMC: I was away from Wikipedia completely and have literally just become aware of this problem. I have contacted Brand via e-mail about the issue (in German), as I also am quite confident that she uploaded the pictures herself. If I haven't heard back from her within a week, I shall scrap the picture from the DYK. If you could allow this final delay, I'd really like to finish this properly. --LordPeterII (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Then I guess the only way forward is to have the hook run without an image. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru, The Rambling Man, Black Kite, and LordPeterII: I have read that LordPeterII, as nominator, has received a warning of incomplete DYK nomination in his talk page from DYKHousekeepingBot (25-3-21). Well, the present problem about pictures is not a problem. I only can say the following: Viola Brand knows the situation. She has uploaded the pictures herself and ... I think that she is not going to send any email form ... I think ... (and a notice ... in portrait photos, the rights belong to the person portrayed in the picture, not the photographer ...). RamónMC 12:35, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
I see the OTRS tag for the two competition images in the article but not for the one here, which one are you proposing to use? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- The proposed image is a crop of File:Viola Brand artistic cycling.jpg which does have permission, so I'm guessing it's fine now. — Amakuru (talk) 22:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well, once the crop has been done correctly and we have a suitably licensed crop, sure. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:13, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: So... does that mean I should just crop it again? I mean, there's literally nothing I would do differently. I only cropped it so it would look clearer, especially in the DYK. Or should I copy the OTRS notice from the main file and change the author so they match? --LordPeterII (talk) 09:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Amakuru what's going on here?! Someone just let me know when the appropriate image with appropriate license and OTRS tag has been selected! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man and LordPeterII: I have copied the permission and attribution information across from the uncropped version to the cropped version, i.e. the one shown above, which I think is the desired pic for the hook. Note that the OTRS template doesn't want me to reuse it directly so I've just put a link in the "Permission" field through to the larger image that's been signed off. I think this should be fine, as we now know the overall image is released and the crop attributes it correctly. (Note that the cropping operation itself is usually assumed to be routine and not to add any additional artistic input so we don't credit Lord Peter as a co-author). Hopefully this resolves the issue and the DYK can be signed off? Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 10:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Amakuru what's going on here?! Someone just let me know when the appropriate image with appropriate license and OTRS tag has been selected! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: So... does that mean I should just crop it again? I mean, there's literally nothing I would do differently. I only cropped it so it would look clearer, especially in the DYK. Or should I copy the OTRS notice from the main file and change the author so they match? --LordPeterII (talk) 09:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well, once the crop has been done correctly and we have a suitably licensed crop, sure. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:13, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I hope. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)