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Template:Did you know nominations/West Park United Reformed Church, Harrogate

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:00, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

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West Park United Reformed Church, Harrogate

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Oliver Cromwell
Oliver Cromwell

5x expanded by Storye book (talk). Self-nominated at 10:19, 27 July 2020 (UTC).

  • The 12 heads illustrated in the article are certainly not all "nonconformists"! John Dryden was rather famously a Catholic, it's an odd way to describe John Calvin, and afaik Cromwell, Locke, Fairfax, and Marvell all remained Anglicans, and were so buried. As far as John Milton goes, in his later years: "Milton had come to stand apart from all sects, though apparently finding the Quakers most congenial. He never went to any religious services in his later years. When a servant brought back accounts of sermons from nonconformist meetings, Milton became so sarcastic that the man at last gave up his place." (quoted in our bio). Leaving 5/12. The Act of Uniformity 1662 is what "Nonconformists" were not conforming to, and the term can only properly be used of English people around after that point. Johnbod (talk) 18:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
More accurate, but given the current situation and Cromwell's record in Ireland, should we be worried that the radical fringe of Harrogate and neighbouring regions, currently no doubt blissfully unaware of the presence in their community of a monument to a man accused of genocide, will descend to tear it down? We wouldn't want that. The presence of the Catholic Dryden, perhaps sneaked in by the papist sculptor, is certainly more surprising. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Until 9 August I can only use the names of four of the heads, Cromwell, Watts, Bunyan and Milton, because they are the only ones with a citation mentioning their names. The others are deduced from portraits and historical relationships. I know that Dryden was a protestant who worked for Cromwell initially, and that his poetry had a supportive and then a disappointed relationship with Halifax, and that (like Muggeridge) he only converted to Catholicism at the end. Muggeridge is remembered from his radio interviews as a challenging agnostic then a challenging Protestant, though. I wonder why Dryden is not remembered as a (changeable) Protestant? Anyway, I can't use Dryden until my first chance to get into the church which will be on 9 August, and I hope on that day there will be one of the church history leaflets available. I have been told that there is "full information" on the leaflet, but no-one has been able to scan it to me because it's locked in the church. As for the Catholic sculptor having a laugh, that is highly possible if the pranks of the earlier Mawer Group and Appleyard are anything to go by (e.g. King Midas on an insurance building and bank). However I think we should have documentary evidence of Dryden before using him in a hook. Hope that's OK? Storye book (talk) 09:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that West Park United Reformed Church, Harrogate, England, has twelve heads of historical characters, including John Bunyan (pictured), carved on its wall?
    John Bunyan
  • Comment on ALT2: This one has documentary ID (same source as ALT0) and it's the best quality sculpture in respect of the lower face. Also without being religious myself I enjoyed his Pilgrims Progress as a kid (Slough of Despond - cool - and the great Apage Satanas scene). Alternatively we could wait until 9 August when hopefully I can get hold of the church history leaflet which is said to list the other sculpture IDs. Storye book (talk) 10:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • GTG. New, long, neutral enough. Plenty of refs. ALT 2 hook checks out. Earwig finds nothing, QPQ done. Are you mixing up Philip Doddridge and Malcolm Muggeridge? If Muggeridge was carved on a church that would certainly worth waiting for, but I doubt that he is. Johnbod (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the review. And no of course not, haha. I was comparing the fact that both Muggeridge and Dryden converted to RC at the end, but were known during their lifetimes for supporting a very different attitude. I guess maybe the Catholic church might want to remember Dryden as a Catholic, but people who have studied Dryden's poetry spanning his lifetime get a different picture, just as those of us who watched Muggeridge on TV repeatedly arguing bishops etc. into the ground for decades didn't see the last-minute conversion coming (though in retrospect his obsession with the subject was a clue). Storye book (talk) 09:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
I doubt that (re Dryden) actually, not least because little if any of his best poetry can be read as particularly Protestant, whereas much of it explicitly supports the English Catholic cause. But whatever. Johnbod (talk) 12:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
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