Template:Did you know nominations/Wiener Hofmusikkapelle
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Lee Vilenski (talk) 15:48, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
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Wiener Hofmusikkapelle
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that the Wiener Hofmusikkapelle, a court choir founded by Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor in 1498, was the predecessor of the Vienna Boys' Choir?
- Reviewed: Gilberto Barragán Balderas
- Comment: A single sentence article created by DilletantiAnonymous on 12 December, and expanded by me on 22 December.
5x expanded by Cwmhiraeth (talk) and DilletantiAnonymous (talk). Nominated by Cwmhiraeth (talk) at 21:00, 29 December 2019 (UTC).
Hi Cwmhiraeth, review follows: article 5x expanded from 22 December; article sufficiently well written and cited inlie throughout to what appear to be reliable sources; there is no copyvio from the two English language sources; hook is interesting and mentioned in article, AGF on foreign-language sourcing; QPQ has been carried out. THis one is good to go for DYK but I found it strange that it wasn't linked from Vienna Boys' Choir and it could use some project tags on the talk page - Dumelow (talk) 10:57, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review, I have done what you suggest. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- I began making it long enough. Will have to go now, but am willing to do more later. The hook is too simple, as the Kapelle still exists, and the boys are part of it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review, I have done what you suggest. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Article has since been shortened and I now count only 1480 characters - Dumelow (talk) 12:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, the shortening was my fault, not intended, and I restored the sections. I still read the sources as not supporting the hook. The chapel was singers and players, and the boys only followed the singers. The Wiener Hofkapelle is today run by the state, it seems. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:11, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Dumelow: It is plenty large enough now and I have added Gerda to the credits. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:19, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Length is now OK. I've asked for another opinion as Gerda has cast doubt on the sourcing. I had AGFed the foreign-language sources here as I don't speak German or Slovenian - Dumelow (talk) 16:50, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- The sources are fine, just the reading. I'll need a day or two until I can get to it, - a death of a politician to care about first, or it won't be "recent" anymore. - Spent all afternoon singing Bach ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:44, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth, sorry about no response, vacation, two more people died ... - The hook is at present not what the article says: Kapelle is not a choir (compare Staatskapelle Dresden), but the group of musicians, singers and players, + it still exists, with the Sängerknaben part of it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, could you suggest a better hook then? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:37, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- That would have the boys' name in German, so if you want it English, you will have to do it - compare discussion of Thomanerchor ;) - Perhaps use just the place with a pic, and tradition to now? - Can you find a relation to Mozart whose birthday is 27 January? I am late to write an article about compositions (Salzburg, or we could make it a double hook), - may I ping you for review later today? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, could you suggest a better hook then? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:37, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth, sorry about no response, vacation, two more people died ... - The hook is at present not what the article says: Kapelle is not a choir (compare Staatskapelle Dresden), but the group of musicians, singers and players, + it still exists, with the Sängerknaben part of it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- The sources are fine, just the reading. I'll need a day or two until I can get to it, - a death of a politician to care about first, or it won't be "recent" anymore. - Spent all afternoon singing Bach ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:44, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Since there has been no progress in this nomination as of late, how about an alternate hook like below?
- ALT1 ... that Antonio Salieri once served as the conductor of the Wiener Hofmusikkapelle?
- I would also suggest that the article be given a quick copy-edit, as some parts of the "History" section are a bit confusing to read and it's not always clear what the sentences are referring to. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:11, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thak you for the offer, but I believe that we should rather help translating the German term, saying that it ware the musicians supplying church music for the imperial court in Vienna, than throwing in a name that I know, but how about the main page readers. Sorry, I had no time to work on the prose. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:04, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- Well if that's the case then you may need to be open to another hook because its suitability was questioned above by Cwmhiraeth. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:58, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thak you for the offer, but I believe that we should rather help translating the German term, saying that it ware the musicians supplying church music for the imperial court in Vienna, than throwing in a name that I know, but how about the main page readers. Sorry, I had no time to work on the prose. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:04, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Cwmhiraeth, DilletantiAnonymous, and Gerda Arendt: I will take a look at this nomination later today. epicgenius (talk) 17:31, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Cwmhiraeth, DilletantiAnonymous, and Gerda Arendt: All right, I have taken a look at the article. I think if we take "choir" out of the hook, it might be fine. Like this:
- ALT2 ... that the Wiener Hofmusikkapelle, founded by Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor in 1498, was the predecessor of the Vienna Boys' Choir?
- ALT3 ...
that the Wiener Hofmusikkapelle, the group of musicians at the court chapel in Vienna, was restricted to church music about 1740?
- Or something else. As a reader, I'm confused if this still exists. See this for example:
Today's Wiener Hofmusikkapelle consists of the Vienna Boys' Choir, male singers from the choir of the Vienna State Opera, and members of the Vienna Philharmonic.
So is this an official group, or just a loose coalition of musicians? epicgenius (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2020 (UTC)- Thank you, - it's tricky. This official source - office of the chancellor of Austria - says they took over the chapel in 2014, and I see no mentioning of a disbanding. If we want to mention someone famous: Schubert was a choirboy, Bruckner an organist. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:42, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: That would be very cool, but it has to be added to the article first. epicgenius (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, - it's tricky. This official source - office of the chancellor of Austria - says they took over the chapel in 2014, and I see no mentioning of a disbanding. If we want to mention someone famous: Schubert was a choirboy, Bruckner an organist. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:42, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Cwmhiraeth, DilletantiAnonymous, and Gerda Arendt: All right, I have taken a look at the article. I think if we take "choir" out of the hook, it might be fine. Like this:
@Cwmhiraeth, DilletantiAnonymous, and Gerda Arendt: The article appears to be translated from the corresponding version on the German Wikipedia. It would be best to give proper attribution and mention such on this article's talk page, specifically the Template:Translated page be added. The article appears to meet all other DYK criteria. ALT2 and ALT1 are the best options. ALT0 is slighty inaccurate as mentioned by User:Gerda Arendt. ALT3 seems too plain to me. Flibirigit (talk) 22:41, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Flibirigit: Thank you for the review. The article is not a translation from the German language Wikipedia. I am happy with either ALT1 or ALT2. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:06, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- The original version of this article made by DilletantiAnonymous is a direct copy of the equivalent German article The headers were changed from German to English, and the German prose was hidden in comments between the headers. The edit summary which created the first draft of this article did not give any attribution. I feel that attribution to the German Wiki article is necessary, as it can be considered plagiarism without. Flibirigit (talk) 04:10, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Flibirigit: Hmm... I had forgotten about that. None of the original commented out text remains so it would seem odd to add a translation tag to the talk page when the text never was translated. Ideally, one would alter the edit summary provided when the article was created, but I don't know if that is possible. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:29, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- It would also seem odd not to recognize how the article started. Attribution should be given on the talk page since the edit summary cannot be changed. Flibirigit (talk) 14:25, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- This morning I expanded the article Yekaterina Skudina by translating text from the Russian language Wikipedia. I added a tag to the talk page which now states
. Such a tag would be quite inappropriate to add to the talk page of Wiener Hofmusikkapelle, because that article does not, and never did, "contain a translation" of the German article. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:58, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
This template contains a translation of Скудина, Екатерина Юрьевна from ru.wikipedia. 
It appears no agreement is foreseeable. Others are invited to give input. Flibirigit (talk) 20:16, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- As the German text was never actually used in the article, I think things should be fine, although I'd still advise leaving a message somewhere (either in the article text or at the talk page) that the article appears to have been at least partly based on the German article if not a direct translation. I do such a thing for my Japanese voice actor articles all the time: even if all I directly copy is just a filmography or the basic outline (but not the exact wordings) I still try to make sure to leave some kind of translation messagea. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:11, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 and Flibirigit:Thank you. That seems a good idea so I have added such a statement to the article talk page. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 15:39, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- As the German text was never actually used in the article, I think things should be fine, although I'd still advise leaving a message somewhere (either in the article text or at the talk page) that the article appears to have been at least partly based on the German article if not a direct translation. I do such a thing for my Japanese voice actor articles all the time: even if all I directly copy is just a filmography or the basic outline (but not the exact wordings) I still try to make sure to leave some kind of translation messagea. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:11, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- This morning I expanded the article Yekaterina Skudina by translating text from the Russian language Wikipedia. I added a tag to the talk page which now states
- It would also seem odd not to recognize how the article started. Attribution should be given on the talk page since the edit summary cannot be changed. Flibirigit (talk) 14:25, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Flibirigit: Hmm... I had forgotten about that. None of the original commented out text remains so it would seem odd to add a translation tag to the talk page when the text never was translated. Ideally, one would alter the edit summary provided when the article was created, but I don't know if that is possible. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:29, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- The original version of this article made by DilletantiAnonymous is a direct copy of the equivalent German article The headers were changed from German to English, and the German prose was hidden in comments between the headers. The edit summary which created the first draft of this article did not give any attribution. I feel that attribution to the German Wiki article is necessary, as it can be considered plagiarism without. Flibirigit (talk) 04:10, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
ALT1 and ALT2 are approved, with a strong preference for ALT2 as it would be more recognizable to the general public. Article appears to meet all DYK review. I am able to read German, and the hooks are verified with the sources provided. A reasonable compromise has been reach for attribution of the original version of this article. Flibirigit (talk) 21:46, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
