Template talk:Assassinated Russian journalists

Incorrect inclusions

An assassination is hired and/or political murder. Several of the people in the template do not fit into this definition and should be removed, unless reliable sources justifying their inclusion are presented:

• Anastasia Baburova: She was not the target of this assassination, but a collateral casualty (trying to stop the assassin). At least, according to provided sources.
• Viktor Popkov: Needs a reliable source asserting that his murder was an assassination.
• Yuri Shchekochikhin: Same as above. Journalist opinion pieces won't do.
• Ilyas Shurpayev: Same as above, apparently, petty murder.
• Larisa Yudina: Same as above.

--illythr (talk) 00:07, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Since there's been no objections for over six weeks, I will remove the mentioned journalists from the template tomorrow. --illythr (talk) 21:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Done, if a bit late. --illythr (talk) 20:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I've removed Voronin as well. The article says just that the murder was connected to a personal dispute with people he knew. Whether it was assassination or a petty murder is unclear. GreyHood ^Talk 23:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Template

The concept of the template "assassinated or murdered" was causing confusion. This was not only seen in the template (see above talk discussion) but also in the improper use of the categories "assassination" and "murdered journalist". Per category descriptions: 1) Reserve assassination for political or ideological killings 2) Use murder for anything else. Other lists of killed journalists distinguish between journalists killed while covering war or conflict. The idea behind this template was a good one as it gives readers a serviceable way to see the scope of the subject "list of killed Russian journalists". But there is misuse in both the template and the categories. Most countries have a category called "Murdered country-name journalists" but for Russia the category is called "Journalists killed in Russia". This issue needs further discussion. Let's please carry the discussion out here before we get into edit wars. For me, it doesn't matter who is in which category. I'm looking for some conceptual clarification.Crtew (talk) 20:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the template should cover only journalists killed in the line of duty, including those murdered for their work as journalists. The decisive criterion for inclusion is reliable sources in their articles explicitly stating this.

Currently the following entries are misplaced: Anastasia Baburova, Larisa Yudina, Yuri Shchekochikhin, as per arguments I presented above. Rory Peck, Cynthia Elbaum, Jochen Piest, Roddy Scott, Andrew Shumack - not Russian journalists. Journalists killed in the Chechen war should probably have their own template. --illythr (talk) 12:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a great idea. Other wars have their own templates for journalists killed: Journalists killed while covering the War in Afghanistan (2001–present).Crtew (talk) 07:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

We could always put a see also on the Chechen conflict template to satisfy completionists!Crtew (talk) 07:55, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

The major problem I see with your suggestion is that it would eliminate the foreign journalists from the template. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, around 9 out of 10 journalists are local or native. All of the foreign journalists who have been killed in Russia would be lost from the reference tool. It seems reasonable that some people would be looking for this information. The record of Russia or any country would not be accurately reflected without the foreign journalist. Your point then raises several problems with the template: 1) Should it be "Assassinated or Murdered Russian Journalists" or "Journalists killed in Russia"? 2) How do we clearly distinguish between the local and the foreign journalists if we include them? One suggestion I would make is that we think about some other country instead of Russia and ask whether we would want these same rules to apply in its similar template. Good discussion so far!Crtew (talk) 17:03, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the current name of the template is "Assassinated Russian journalists", so its intended scope is rather narrow. With its current content it makes more sense to rename it to "Journalists killed in Russia". However, that would appear to "spoil" the original idea behind the template. --illythr (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

What about if we just label every foreign journalist by his or her country in parens? That way more audience members could use the template for different purposes.Crtew (talk) 22:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

A template's purpose should be made clear in its name, not body. So renaming or splitting seems to be the only viable option. --illythr (talk) 06:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The immediate motivation behind the creation of the template "Assassinated Russian journalists" was to improve my own navigational experience while reading on the subject. As it was already stated in the discussion, its raison d'etre is not a problem, on the other hand its contents are still somewhat confusing (as of January 25, 2012). As I have dropped the ball on this one, these are just suggestions:

1) Journalists killed during the Chechen wars should have their own template.

2) Keep the original intended scope of the template as "Assassinated Russian journalists" and remove most entries, keep only those with references.

3) It is up to discussion if the template should or should not contain also a second group titled "Unexplained murders" or similiar, for all journalists generally believed to be murdered in relation to their work, but who do not pass the rigorous criterion for inclusion into the "assassinated" group. I think it could work this way. Brutalhovno (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no point in mixing petty murders, assassinations and military conflict-related deaths on one page. GreyHood ^Talk 23:22, 11 February 2012 (UTC)