Template talk:Club world championships

Clubs

Hi. I've no objection to the intent of this template, but the use of the word clubs is wildly inaccurate for some of the items included on the template. F1, Rallying, America's Cup and possibly some of the others are not contested by clubs, but by teams. There's a superficial similarity, but they're really quite different. How many clubs move from one sport to another (Toyota Team Europe in F1, sportscars, Touring Cars and Rallying, for example), or are formed for the short term intention of winning a single event, as some of the America's Cup syndicates are? 4u1e (talk) 06:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Club per se is a European term. Americans mostly use the word "team." Although I have no issue on using "team" or "team/club".

This template was created for world championships not contested by national teams or by individuals. Ergo, clubs and/or teams. –Howard the Duck 06:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And club is only used in Europe (you can take my word for this!) for athletic sports such as running, football, rugby etc. Now I think of it, the term is even more inappropriate for motorsport, because there are motorsport clubs (British Automobile Racing Club, British Racing and Sports Car Club etc), but they organise championships, rather than contesting them. That's true both here or in the States, to the best of my knowledge. What's the equivalent template for world championships that are contested by national teams called? (National clubs don't exist, of course!) 4u1e (talk) 06:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually most American teams, or franchises work in the same way as the European clubs so they are parallel. As for motorsports the different "constructors" work in the same way as clubs.

As for your question, it's Template:Main world championships. –Howard the Duck 12:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

True re American franchises, but that only applies to certain sports. Re motorsport, the different constructors are only vaguely similar to clubs and have only become so in recent years. And the other template name is pretty poor too, I'm afraid. Why are events contested by national teams the 'main' ones?!

What you have here is a template for 'World championships that are not contested on a national basis'. How about moving it to that? 4u1e (talk) 17:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

That would fit the the longer title given to the other template: "World championships between national teams/representatives", although that would be better expressed as "World championships contested on a national basis" 4u1e (talk) 17:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd still prefer "club" as a catch-all term for teams that are not national teams. As for moving the template, I'd suggest just chamging the name/title of the template as it appears on the navbox.

As for "main", I think it is pretty clear concept that competitions played by national teams are more important than competitions played by non-national/club teams, except for certain sports (see below). –Howard the Duck 02:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Re your second point: Huh? You admit yourself that there are exceptions, but I can't see any reason to believe that there is a generally accepted rule that championships contested by national teams are more important than others. F1 (to take the example closest to my heart) is the third most watched sport on TV worldwide after the Football World Cup and the Olympics. That suggests that perhaps some non-national world championships are quite important. 4u1e (talk) 18:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

For Europeans it would seem that way, especially for team ballsports; soccer, rugby, cricket, the like. For Americans (and Canadians in a sense), in sports that they dominate, the club/franchise competitions are more important, like the NBA, NFL, NHL and MLB. –Howard the Duck 04:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

As a European, I don't agree that we all necessarily feel that nationally competed world championships are the most important ones, but I think we're now agreeing that there is no common view that either type is the main one. As for 'world championships' that can only be competed in by teams from one nation, I really struggle with that concept - but that's the conversation going on down below. 4u1e (talk) 17:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

If anything I'd support moving "main" to "national world championships". –Howard the Duck 01:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, but I wonder whether 'national world' would cause confusion? There are also national championships (i.e. those competed only within one nation - like the (ahem) soccer Premiership or the British Touring Car Championship, or the Baseball World Series ;-)). That's why I suggested elsewhere "World Championships that are contested on a national basis.". 4u1e (talk) 19:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe national team world championships. Actually, we're only talking about the Template title, what we need to clear up is the name that appears on the navbox. –Howard the Duck 03:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

'National team world championships' is good (although what is the equivalent for the other kind?) Surely the template title and the name on the navbox can be the same thing? 4u1e (talk) 08:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

'Club team world championships'?

In this case the template title is 'World championships between clubs' while the template name is 'Club world championships'. –Howard the Duck 10:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

That takes us back into the whole argument that 'club' is not the right term for many sports. That's not just being picky - motorsport clubs exist and are completely different things to the teams that we are interested in here. I've spent some time thinking about it, and "World championships not contested on a national basis" is the only accurate wording I can come up with. It's a little clumsy, but it means that there should be no confusion over which category a championship goes. If you call it clubs, or teams, or syndicates, or franchises, someone will always come along and say "well, my sport isn't competed by teams/clubs/syndicates/franchises/goldfish/whatever". 4u1e (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

How about "Non-national team world championships"? –Howard the Duck 16:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Still ambiguous, but much less obviously so. I'm happy to settle on that if you are! 4u1e (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

It sounds clumsy but until someone comes up with a better name this will have to stick. –Howard the Duck 08:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

"World" Championships

Aren't the American and Australian rules football entries to this template purely domestic?--Jeff79 (talk) 21:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree - i've already removed the NHL, MLB and NBA championships from this template. The ALF and NFL should probably go too. Mattlore (talk) 22:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Heh, again this is the European standard being applied to American competitions and the AFL; the AFL, NBA, MLB and NHL championships are the top-level non-national team comeptitions of their respective sports and are de-facto world championships. –Howard the Duck 02:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The way I understand it (and I'm about as European as fried chicken - Mattlore too as I understand it?), until you've got champions from separate nations competing to be 'champion of champions' you don't have a 'club world championship'. I'm not sure this template can really work. There are probably a lot more club world championships than this out there so I think it needs some sort of qualifier like 'top-level' or 'major' (Ick, adjectives). Leave me out of it.--Jeff79 (talk) 20:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

As Jeff says, I'm not European either. Just because, for example, the MLB World Series winner is sometimes referred to as "World Champions" by Americans doesn't mean they are so. Unless they win a tournament that also contains teams from (especially) the Nippon league, but probably also teams from Cuba, Mexico etc they aren't the Club World Championships of that sport. As the introduction to MLB says "Major League Baseball (MLB) is the highest level of play in American professional baseball." There is a difference between top level and world. All this template is really going to end up with is soccer, league and possibly Bandy which doesn't make for a very exciting project. Mattlore (talk) 00:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

So the AFL (both the Aussie and the American successor) gets to be kicked out of here as well? I'm surprised no one has mentioned the AFL here. As I've said, they are de facto club world championships. I might as well add a de facto group at the bottom. –Howard the Duck 07:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Victoria Cup?

Can this be considered a world club championship? It's the closest it can get to a competition for the best clubs in the world although only the best European and a random NHL team is represented. There are plans to include the most recent Stanley Cup champion in this competition against the European champ in the future. No clubs from the rest of the world though (ALIH fore example). Maybe this can be added into a subsection called "related"? Like there is a "related" section in this template. IJK_Principle (talk) 15:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I would say the Victoria Cup should be there alongside the others. It is almost an identical format to rugby leagues World Club Challenge for example, although that is the two winners rather than a selected team. Mattlore (talk) 00:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

split current of proposal and former

split current and proposal--Feroang (talk) 16:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Champions League Twenty20

Champions League Twenty20 look like a club world cup, do you agree--186.56.132.180 (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree and gonna put it in.--Feroang (talk) 00:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)