Template talk:Country data Belgium

Official flag

Maybe it's time to add alias for civil flag of Belgium and switch official to one without alias?

Why was state flag changed to government flag? Now there isn't possibility to use official belgium flag because only governmental and flag with wrong properties are available? Please revert this and please add governmental flag with other alias.

Another flag

Could we possibly have this flag added to the profile as, say {{flag|Belgium|1830}}? Thanks!

Template-protected edit request on 15 March 2018

Change Template:navy link to Belgian Navy. Skjoldbro (talk) 16:16, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done --Muhandes (talk) 15:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 15 November 2018

2018 discussion

File:Flag of Belgium.svg (13:15) File:Flag of Belgium (civil).svg (2:3) This template should arguably have File:Flag of Belgium.svg, the national flag, as the standard/official flag to be displayed with a template like {{flag|Belgium}}, which currently displays File:Flag of Belgium (civil).svg, the civil ensign, instead. Virtually all other country data templates utilise the file without a disambiguator (the national flag) as the flag variant displayed without a label/alias. This was incidentally echoed in a similar talk page section (undated, unsigned and unreplied) above. The currently displayed civil flag should instead be moved to a label/alias of civil and replaced with the one in state, which should then be deleted. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 10:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)  Done, I think. I changed the default to the national flag, then added "civil" as an option to generate the civil flag. I left "state" as an alias of the default in case anyone is using it. Ping me if I broke anything or didn't do it right. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC) This is ridiculous. I am from Belgium and the state flag is NEVER EVER used. You honestely don't see it anywhere. These odd proportions are mentioned in the constitution, but being what they are - odd and ridiculous - the country moved onto using the civil flag instead. Again, you will not find this flag anywhere. You will not find it in similar template on the Dutch and French Wikipedias, which are Belgium's main languages. So stop being dogmatic and please revert this change. 185.22.224.96 (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC) I fully agree with the previous comment. I am a Belgian as well. This state flag is never used. You will not find it on any other Wikipedia. Ok, it is the official flag, but we should look at the customary use of the civil flag here. Beside, there are similar differences to e.g. the flag of Peru. This flag just is ridiculous, please change it back to how it was (and is used on every other Wikipedia). Takk (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2018 (UTC) I have reverted the change, which, as you can see, was requested multiple times on this talk page. I strongly recommend that the objectors make some sourced changes to Flag of Belgium, where it is currently pretty clear that the unusually shaped flag is the country's official flag. Cite some sources that explain that the official flag is never used. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

 Completed. Note: this was reactivated by editor HapHaxion on 14 July 2023 with an edit summary of "Reactivating due to WP:OR". So this date, due to nobody coming forward with a reliable source(s) that supports that the state flag is not used and the civilian flag is "used everywhere", WP must go with the sources cited in the Flag of Belgium article, particularly sources "2" and "4". Those reliable sources support that the state flag, not the civilian flag, is the official and default flag. It is not "used everywhere"; however, the sources support that it is definitely used. This issue is settled until and unless editors provide reliable sources that support that the civilian flag should be the default flag in this template. Thank you all for your input and stay healthy! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 21:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry but I fail to see why, five years after this discussion, you unilaterally need to take such a decision. Almost all comments over the years have been negative when it was suggested to change to the 13-15 dimensions. Sure, it is difficult to find sources that confirm that the civil version is the de facto flag. But that is because it has been customary for - literally - two centuries. I would dare you to find a 13-15 flag anywhere in Belgium. You will not find it, not on any public building.

The two sources you cite are unofficial, and the reference to the state flag being used dates back to 2005 - almost two decades ago. You state that the claim is that the state flag is not "used everywhere" but I would claim that its not used "anywhere". So this is in complete contradiction with the reality on the ground. Which I know quite well, being a Belgian. I am sorry but this looks and is ridiculous. Please revert until you can at least demonstrate that there is some sort of majority that would back such a drastic change. Takk (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

And I would argue that this is a case of customary law, an established pattern of behavior that can be objectively verified within a particular social setting. A claim can be carried out in defense of "what has always been done and accepted by law". It is not codified as such, but widely accepted that the 2:3 version is the national flag.

By the way, Article 193 of the Belgian Constitution says that the flag should be red-yellow-black. See here and more background here. Takk (talk) 08:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC) So if you want to be even more dogmatic, you would have to put the flag upside down. Surely, you would agree that this is not the way to go. We should look at the facts on the ground. Takk (talk) 08:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I will be glad to revert just as soon as the top flag on display in both the Belgium and Flag of Belgium articles is removed and replaced with the civilian flag. And just as soon as you meet the Wikipedia requirement (one of the five pillars, by the way) of NPOV and produce reliable sources that confirm the civilian flag to be the national flag. You say you are Belgian, and if you are, and if you are correct about the flag, then you are honor bound to produce evidence that substantiates your claim beyond its sadly wanting OR nature. If it's true, then prove it! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 11:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry but I have a question: which policy says that the default flag of a country for this template should be the official flag? In this case, the national flag? Unnamelessness (talk) 11:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I fully agree. It should be the one that is in daily use; in Belgium's case, the civil one. Takk (talk) 12:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The community consensuses that govern, and that have traditionally governed, all of these flag/country data templates are found in the WikiProjects, Heraldry and vexillology and Flag Template, and in the Manual of Style. Help me understand something, please. In this case of Belgium there is the official national flag and the seemingly unusual "civilian" flag that is similar to the official flag, but with a different size ratio. Both of these flags are represented in this country data template with |state and |civil parameters respectively. So either flag icon can be used in any appropriate situation where editors want them to be used. So what exactly is the actual problem with using the official flag, such as is used in other country data templates, as the default? Are editors on this page who are Belgian saying that they are prouder of their civilian flag than they are of their national flag? That is what I am hearing as the words on this page pass through my processing neurons. Since I am from a country that has a national official flag, but no such thing as a civilian flag that would be flown in place of our national flag, then the only thing I can conclude is that Belgians are not proud of their official national flag and must instead substitute a civilian flag in place of it. Sorry, but I have no precedent to go by, because there is no flag in my country that would be placed above our national flag. Why are Belgians so proud of a 2:3 ratio at the expense of their official 13:15 ratio? P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

You should ask yourself why in the 20+ years that Wikipedia existed, apart from you and one or two other editors, no one seemed to have wanted to use the state flag in this template. Everyone is perfectly happy to use the civil version, the one that is omnipresent in Belgium and abroad, the one that is most user friendly and the one that follows the global standard of 2:3.

The state flag has a terribly odd size ratio, which makes the flag stand out (in a negative way) in any list that involves flags, e.g. in articles on sport events. Once again, look at the Dutch, French and German Wikipedias. Surely, a large part of the users there will be Belgians. And surely, they would have used the state version in their respective templates if they felt this was the most appropriate version. But that is not the case. So why do you and one or two other editors want to impose this flag on a community that never has seen this before?

Finally, I would also like to refer to the box at the top of this page which clearly mentions "Substantial changes should be proposed here first. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by consensus, editors may use [...] to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Any contributor may edit the template's documentation to add usage notes or categories." Clearly, there is no such consensus. Far from it. So that in itself is reason enough to revert this change. Takk (talk) 13:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

You are avoiding the question, aren't you? There is no such policy that explicitly says the official national flag must be set as default. What I see the consensus here is No consensus to change. Yes, you could've WP:BOLDly argued with WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:V, but given the disputes here, shouldn't WP:BRD be applied here?

Also, "So either flag icon can be used in any appropriate situation where editors want them to be used." Except the fact that the 13:15 ratio flag has been commonly used for the past 20 years and changing to the 2:3 ratio leads to loads amount of flags to be updated, and that is purely impractical. Unnamelessness (talk) 14:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Even we take that community consensus into account, I would still WP:IAR oppose in this case, due to the aesthetics and the consistency with the vast majority of flagicons. Unnamelessness (talk) 15:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

You are avoiding the question, aren't you?

I discuss this with you and do not recall avoiding any question; however, you seem to have skated right by my question. The only problem with the Belgian flag seems to be the "terribly odd size ratio", and the reason I personally like it is that very same "problem", it's different, it's an individualistic expression that makes it stand out among all the 2:3 ratio flags that are now in use. It's memorable and will be remembered far longer by many different global groups than just about any of the other flags. So I still don't understand why Belgians hate their official flag sooo much, that they have to resort to a flag ratio that does not stand out at all, a "civilian" flag that is cherished more than their national flag. Yes, I do understand controversy on Wikipedia, which is why we have policies and guidelines to help us decide, and is why we rely so much on consensus. So while it's true that there is no consensus as yet either way, that means to me that we must and should fall back on the need for reliable sources to decide this. No editor has provided any sources that support the use of the civilian flag as the default flag in this template. Several sources are provided in the articles on Belgium and its flag to support the official flag's use in this template. Another editor called the two sources I cited from the Flag article "unofficial", and yet there they are, being used as reliable sources in a WP article. So again I ask the same question, simply because I find editor Takk's answer of "terribly odd size ratio" inexplicable – it makes no sense to discard a national flag just because you don't like its size. Seems quite unpatriotic! So no, I do not accept IAR as a possibility because no one has come up with a single good reason to IAR. One must have a very good reason to ignore the rules, and everything I've seen so far is nothing more than frivolous "I don't like it" mentality. Reliable sources – that's the ticket! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 16:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

"It's different and memorable" is exactly the problem, namely that it does not correspond with the reality on the ground, i.e. the 13:15 is not used in daily life. It's litterally not used.

Your personal view on the lack of consensus meaning you could singlehandly impose this flag also does not correspond with policy guidelines. It is up to you to convince the community of the need for this change, not for us to convince you to return to the status quo of the past years, if not decades.

That being said, you asked for sources, and I gave you one below (by Léon Nyssen) that is also referred to on the French Wikipedia page on the Belgian flag.

I would really appreciate it if you could revert this change so that it is in line again with all other languages on Wikipedia. I had a look at dozens of the other versions of the Template:BEL and I failed to find a single one that uses the state flag.

Takk (talk) 18:39, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Your personal view is exactly the problem here, Takk. Your single source below: is it a reliable source? You give no context to show that it is a reliable source. And even if its reliability is established, it does not support your claim that the official flag of Belgium is "not used in daily life. It's literally not used." It just indicates that the official flag is "less common", which aligns with other sources. Consensus can change, which means that status quos can change. Editors have been trying to make the official flag the default flag in this template since it was created in 2007 and have been reverted with little discussion. It's been noted that without a reliable source that supports its usage, with only the "word" of editors who say they live in Belgium, usage of the civilian flag as the default flag in this template is original research. You and others who argue argue argue without much of a leg to stand on might want to look that up. Thus far in the history of this template, all that can be seen is how usage of the Belgian civilian flag being displayed as if it were the official flag of Belgium violates all three core policies of Wikipedia, NOR (no original research), NPOV (neutral point of view) and V (verifiability). When I changed the default flag a few days ago I couldn't have cared less; was just responding to an editor's reactivation of an edit request. I'm not here as just a template editor, now. I'm here as a concerned editor who does not want to see WP policies violated. If you or any editor can prove the claim that the official flag is not used anywhere, then there would be conflict with the already used reliable sources. And yet just providing a source that corroborates your claim would be a step forward and away from OR. If your claim is true, then it should be documented somewhere. My guess is that, just as you pointed to your source below, which does not support your claim, you exagerate the lack of usage of the Belgian official flag. How can I draw any other conclusion? You must show that WP policies are not being violated. Do that and I will surely do right by you. If you cannot do that then I have to think that to properly display the official Belgian flag is to do right by the people and government of the Kingdom of Belgium. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I have found some more sources for you here ("Flying atop public buildings, however, is the ‘civil’ version, which uses the more traditional 2:3 measurements"). Please note that the claim that the 13:15 flag flies over the Royal Palace is false: it is a 4:3 flag for aesthetic reasons (see picture here). Another source here ("The national flag has the unusual proportions of 13:15, but is rarely seen. A flag in a 2:3 or similar ratio is used in most cases, even by most government bodies.").

In addition to these sources, I would once again like to state that this is a case of customary law, which by default is something that cannot be found in written legislation.

And then there is the Constitution, which does not specify the dimensions and even mentions the opposite order of colours (see nl:Artikel 193 van de Belgische Grondwet). From which you should conclude that we should look at what is customary. In this case the order black-yellow-red and in the dimensions 2:3. Takk (talk) 07:43, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

From an objective point of view, it can be admitted that the argument, that while the civilian flag is not the official flag, it is the flag that should be the default flag in this template, is beginning to become compelling. Since sources have been provided to support that argument, and since the civilian flag has been the status quo flag in this template for many years, it is by WP policy that the civilian flag should be the default in this template. So, from this day forward there should be no more edit requests to change it from the civilian 2:3 ratio to the national 13:15 ratio until and unless a consensus has been formed by, for example, an RfC that has meaningful attendance. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 17:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I never claimed that the civil flag is "the" national flag. I only say that the state flag is never used, and therefore, the go-to flag for templates like these should be the one that is customary in daily life. I don't see any contradiction between the 13:15 flag being displayed on the "Belgium" and "Flag of Belgium" pages and the civil version being used for daily use templates.

When it comes to sources, I would refer to Léon Nyssen, "Les Drapeaux nouveaux de la Belgique fédérale", p. 142-145, where it is states that, officially, the dimensions of the flag have been set at 2.60 m high and 3 m wide, which gives an unusual proportion of 13:15. For civilian use, a ratio of 2:3 is more common. Moreover, the exact ratio is not specified by the Constitution. Takk (talk) 12:03, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

 Undone: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit template-protected}} template. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 17:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

This is really weird...

I was looking at Belgium's soccer results and noticed the flag was shorter than it was yesterday. As we all know, people requested that the civil flag should be replaced with the state flag (which is the same but with different dimensions).

However, I'm against that. Belgium's state flag feels really weird and different compared to other flags. It just feels a bit off.

Any chances of reverting it back? (No offence to whoever requested this, it's really strange...)

#bodyContent a[title="User:Aaxelpediaa"] { background-color: #0000ff; color: #ff0000; font-weight: bold; (talk) 02:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

so weird

I am from WikiProject World Rally. As previous entry said, the modification is so weird. Very very ugly to look especially when the Belgium's state flag is mixed into the other flags, which are exactly the same size.

e.g. Thierry Neuville's and Nicolas Gilsoul's Belgium flags compared to the other crews in 2018 Rally Australia#Entry list.

Strongly suggest to revert it back. --Unnamelessness (talk) 05:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Some thoughts

Hello, the original requester here. I fully respect the decision not to change the template, reflecting consensus. However, I would simply like to present a few more thoughts here about the aforementioned flags, as well as responding in part to certain posts above.

I concede that the 13:15 ratio "state flag" () (which is actually a national flag) looks rather ugly alongside other flags, as well as that the 2:3 ratio civil flag (), which seems to be more used de facto, is obviously more aesthetically pleasing. However, there are flags that are used by default for other countries that also have atypical aspect ratios: Switzerland and Nepal come particularly to mind and could cause similar difficulties to lists or to tables. In my opinion, country data templates should seek to portray the official variant of a country's flag – the multitude of different proportions makes it difficult to ensure an exactly even layout.

Echoing Jonesey95's remarks above, the article for Belgium, as well as the article for the flag, both clearly show the 13:15 ratio national flag as the correct one, as well as the articles on the Dutch and on the French Wikipedias (the two main Belgian languages). Moreover, it doesn't seem to be the civil flag that is typically used in such templates, but the national flag, which is identical to the civil flag in many instances, such as that of Peru, while its state flag is differenced with the coat of arms and isn't used by default. (As a side note, the Belgian state flag isn't either of the two flags under discussion: it's actually this one.)

However, it may be indeed possible to come to some sort of compromise. Looking closer at the HTML code for the narrower Swiss and Nepalese flags above, I notice that there are more non-breaking spaces ( s) between the flag and the country name (there are two after the Swiss flag and three after the Nepalese flag), spacing them out a little farther, compared to only one space after the flags of most other countries. In view of this, one solution to this issue could be to use the 13:15 ratio national flag as the default, but with the addition of one extra   between the flag itself and link to Belgium that follows it, in parallel with Switzerland, the flag of which has similar proportions. I'm not too sure how the addition of these extra spaces is achieved myself, but this would undoubtedly lessen the unaesthetic nature of the national flag as it appeared previously, before the revert. Any further comments or discussion on this matter would be welcome.

Thank you for your time. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 12:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

We need to look at which flag is being used in practice, which in Belgium's case is the civil flag. All public buildings (apart from the Royal Palace, which flies a 4:3 flag for aesthetic reasons) use the civil version. I have never seen the 13:15 version in my entire life. The comparison to the Swiss flag is a bit off as people in Switzerland all recognise the shape of their flag as being rectangular, whereas Belgians don't (I do know that 13:15 is not exactly a rectangular shape but you do get my point). As these type of flag data templates are used all over Wikipedia, they should seek to portray the variant of a country's flag that is in daily use. 185.22.224.96 (talk) 13:33, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

This is all excellent original research, but what is really needed are references to reliable sources that say "the state flag is the official national flag, but it is never used". Those sources should be added to Flag of Belgium, which has had no sourced edits for over two years. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Again?????

I fully understand the rationale here to change the ratio of the flag, but at least leave a parameter for the 2:3 ratio flag to display. Like I said in 2018, the current flag is so weired when it is mixing with other flags. It is so far off...... Unnamelessness (talk) 06:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Revert this change! I am Belgian, the state flag is NEVER EVER used. Not even by the Belgian State! Look at the Dutch, French and German versions of Wikipedia (Belgium's three national languages) and you will see that there they also use the civil version. They know far better than those of you who care more about what sounds reasonable on paper but is completely out of touch with reality. Takk (talk) 07:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

This appears to be a fork of the above discussion, so please, any continuation should be confined to that section. And there is, of course, a parameter for the civilian flag, which is |civil, as in {{flag|Belgium|civil}}, which produces "Belgium". P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 11:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)