Template talk:Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown

Moving this to County Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown (the usual Irish format, rather than having the 'county' at the end). Edited to add: (Oops, forgot to sign - this was me, Bastun).

The three Dublin admin counties are known, in law, as "County of X" (that's why we have them at County of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, County of Fingal, and County of South Dublin respectively). It doesn't make grammatical sense to say "Places in County of X" (it would be "Places in the County of X") so moving the "County" to the end (simple grammar; eg. Cathedral of Cobh, Cobh Cathedral) you get "Places in X County". Quite simple.
Also, Sarah, if you want to view the template documentation and how it is formatted, then have a look at Template:Irish county navigation box. There's a full explanation there of the different classes of towns.
As to why Glencullen and Shankill were listed as unincorporated towns, they were the only two listed here as being such. I threw in Dún Laoghaire as well because, well, I knew it wasn't just a village. I've actually been meaning to do some more research on how all the towns/villages in DLR should be split; give me some time and I'll get back to you on that. Thanks. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 15:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, I'm not Sarah. But your example doesn't follow - in Ireland, "county" always comes first. You never hear someone saying "All the towns in Kerry County", for example. Please revert. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 15:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Bastun is right: "Foo County" just isn't used in Irealnd.

However, while normal usage is "County Foo", that doesn't seem to apply to new sub-divisions of County Dublin, which all seem to be known as "County of Foo", and as Bastun points out, that's their legal name.

The concept of "unincorporated town" simply doesn't exist in Ireland, and should be removed from the template. Dun Laoghaire itself is a town, and all the rest are villages (suburban villages, these days, but village nonetheless). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This all came about at Template talk:County Donegal (and see also Template talk:Irish county navigation box). The problem was, that fairly sizable towns were being listed as villages because they weren't 'incorporated' (i.e. having a town council). Thus, because in Ireland we have what are called "census towns" (seperate to official, legislated towns; any place with 50 or more dwellings) the idea of unincorporated towns was added to the template in order to differentiate between these legislated towns and census towns. I even had it up on the base template's talk page for days before changing it, but no one bothered replying. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This turns out to be a wider problem than I had thought :( I have just been looking at Template:Irish county navigation box/doc, which has been extensively rewritten by Schcambo, and I'm afraid that the structure outlined there is far too complicated and amounts to original research. It also contains some basic flaws, such as relegating townlands to an "other" category, which is simply wrong. Please Schcambo, can you stop any further work in this are pending a wider discussion?

A note on the tempalte's talk page is a good idea, but it will only come to the attention of anyone who has the template watchlist, which is why you got no response. This discussion should be flagged up on WT:IE. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you joking me? Incorporated and unincorporated towns are dictionary definitions. An incorporated town is one with defined boundaries (in the Irish context, those 75 legislated for by the Local Government Acts, 1994 (S.I. 171 of 1994) and 2001 (S.I. 591 of 2001)). An unincorporated town is one without legal boundaries (in the Irish context, defined by the CSO as a cluster of fifty or more occupied dwellings, not having a legally defined boundary, in which within a distance of 800 metres there is a nucleus of either thirty occupied houses on both sides of the road or twenty occupied houses on one side of the road.). That isn't original research.
Further, I don't understand what you mean by townlands being "relegated" to an "other" category - they are in the exact same position in the new version as they were in the old version, and their explanation in the documentation hasn't been changed by a word. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be an intrinsic problem in the definitions used, otherwise the template suggests that places like Blackrock, Ballinteer, Dalkey, etc., have less than 1,000 inhabitants. Poohy! ww2censor (talk) 16:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I know - as I said above, I need to do some research on this, as Shankill and Glencullen are the only two listed by the CSO as "census towns". --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully it can be fixed to everyone (!) satisfaction, so that is it useful. On the Count Wicklow template I see that some villages that are also townlands are causing me a problem, for instance Aghavannagh. we can talk about that elsewhere if necessary. CHheers ww2censor (talk) 17:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Schcambo, I am not joking with you. The census is an exercise in collecting population data, but you are treating it as if it was an attempt to create a generalised structure for Irish geography. The census page to which you linked from Template:Irish county navigation box/doc explicitly rejects any such aim. It begins with the words "For census purposes" ... yet you are claiming that these definitions have a wider meaning "in the Irish context". If you read that CSO page, you'll see that the CSO itself doesn't follow the town council boundaries, so it should be clear even from that page that there are many competing definitions. Trying to use the CSO structure for other purposes creates absurdities such as your labelling on this template of Glencullen as a "town" but Blackrock as a village. (Do you know these places?)

That much could be described as using an inappropriate source, but this edit (which defines a village as having less than 1,000 inhabitants) is pure original research.

This whole issue has already been resolved for categorisation purposes by creating catchall categories of "towns and villages" such as Category:Towns and villages in County Kerry. That option should be considered for the templates, but this is all part of a wider issue relating to the template, and any further discussion on the generalities should take place on the template's talk page: Template talk:Irish county navigation box.

In the meantime, though, it is clear that Sarah777 was right to blank this template, because it is seriously wrong. I will now blank it again pending the development of some framework which allows this template to be recreated with some accuracy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, trust me, I know these places. No, the figure of 1,000 isn't "pure original research". It is the figure that the CSO themselves use (on the same page as above) as a distinction between census towns. Anyway, as a compromise until anything better is proposed, a field could be added so as to list everything as a "suburb". --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 18:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Golly gosh - did I start all this?! Anyway I like Schambo's template if he is prepared to make it conform to normal usage; even the Irish Ordnance Survey say they try to use (like Wiki) most common usage rather than legal or historical documentation when it comes to spelling place-names for example.

• Dublin is different from other Irish counties as there is no other county even remotely as urban as "old" County Dublin is. So we have common practice of referring to Fingal, DL and South Dublin as "County of Foo" rather than "County Foo" in the case of the other 25 (or 31 actually). But never "Foo County".
• Another difference is that suburbs usually (though not always, there are some "New Towns") develop around older towns or villages which become part of the continuous built-up area as times passes. These places are generally taken to cover the area they occupied at the time they became physically incorporated, though there is not hard and fast rule; local usage determines. So Blackrock as the area is normally defined in common usage has nearly 30,000 people and Glencullen maybe 200. Blackrock is both an urban village and the extensive suburban areas around it; the lines are also not clearly defined - Booterstown is sometimes considered a separate suburb and sometimes part of Blackrock; ditto Deansgrange.
• A similar local example is Rathfarnham; an old 'major' suburb with newer areas like Whitechurch which can be considered (increasingly, as it grows, a separate suburb) but is also regarded as part of Rathfarnham.
• The practice here has been to achieve consensus on a case by case basis based on common usage rather than refer to rules or legality.
• And to complicate matters, in Counties South Dublin and Fingal where there remain rural areas with separated villages/towns outside the continuous built-up area - these places are referred to in the normal Irish manner, eg: Newcastle, County Dublin (in South Dublin) or Swords, County Dublin in Fingal.
• Areas inside the continuous built-up area are usually referred to (if dab is required) as Foo, Dublin eg Blackrock, Dublin, Whitechurch, Dublin etc.

These conventions have evolved over the past 5 years; and are not as complicated as they sound. They also eliminate most "turf wars" between "suburb boosters" by allowing places like Dollymount to have an article as a separate suburb but to categorise it as Clontarf - because it is regarded as both in common usage.

Hope this makes sense! Sarah777 (talk) 14:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)