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Discussion copied from WikiProject Judaism
editLet me know what you think of my new footer for Hanukkah. Remember 20:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
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Very nice, but:
"Menora" links to a disambiguation page. I can fix that in a jiffy.changed spelling - SJA"Bimuelos" redirects to Buñuelos. Hanukkah is barely mentioned there- changed spelling, still not sure it's relevant - SJA"Ma'oz Tzur" and "Rock of Ages" are in two different sections. As mentioned above, they are the Hebrew and English versions of the same song and were briefly considered for merger. So, why have them in two separate sections?- Someone fixed that."Media" links to a disambiguation page. Definitely wrong. It should probably be delinked.delinked SJA- Are Saturday Night Live sketches and Adam Sandler movies really the sort of thing for this template?
- I think they are okay to add. The SNL skit could go since it is minor but I thought the other movies showed how Hannukah is portrayed in American culture. Remember (talk) 12:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- 6.
Follow the link to "Society." It's very general and questionably relevant to this context. Should it be here?- Changed
Also, does anyone know why "Chanukah music" spells the name of the holiday differently from the rest of Wikipedia?
Those are about the only problems I can see. I'll make obvious corrections and wait for comments. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 02:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Agree with all comments. I put this together rather quickly and I figured others would help sort it out. Thanks for the help. Remember (talk) 03:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Nice job, should be helpful. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- I think the template is very pretty and has potential. However, I'm not sure I love the popular culture categories/inclusions. In my experience, it's hard to draw a line and you end up with 1000 links to songs, parodies, poems, etc. (I just killed a whole para like this that infested Talk:Gettysburg Address if you want to see one). How long before you have to link the (offensive, IMO) "Hanukkah Harry" character Seinfeld did on Saturday Night Live. Also, I have a problem with "Hanukkah Bush," which first of all, has basically nothing to do with Hanukkah and much more to do with Jews observing a Christian holiday, and secondly, is an American thing, so is limited in scope. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- Whoops, reading more carefully I see Harry is already in there. I have serious objections to that. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC) "Hanukkah Harry is a fictional character, a humorous Jewish counterpart of Santa Claus." ????? There is no Jewish counterpart to Santa Claus and there is CERTAINLY nothing about the observance of Hanukkah that has a jolly fictional Jewish character portraying a cultural stereotype for "laughs." Please, please remove this whole category. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- By this whole category, do you just mean Hannukah Harry or the songs and movies as well. I would agree that it is typically difficult to draw a line when there are lots of movies, songs, and TV shows. In that case it is best to include the category instead of listing each song or movie (see the Christmas template). However, in this case, there is just not that much Hannukah media entries on wikipedia and so it is not really an issue. Until it becomes one, my feeling is listing these songs and movies works in the template. But I can understand taking out Hannukah Harry since he is such a minor media reference. Your thoughts? Any other opinions? Remember (talk) 16:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Remember, thanks for your fast reply. My view is take out the whole category of media: (1) it is USA-centric, (2) it is the type of category that will grow unbounded and require enormous POV arguments about what to delete/include, (3) as it stands it includes several works that only nominally have to do with Hanukkah (eg, the "Hanukkah Song" which is really about what celebrities are Jewish and not so much about the holiday), and (4) it includes works that are mostly about portraying Jewish/American stereotypes, not about the holiday. Related to this, I am also against including Hanukkah Bush and Chrismukkah on this template. To me this just strikes the wrong chord. Kaisershatner (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC) (NB that I too would welcome other views on this).Kaisershatner (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- By this whole category, do you just mean Hannukah Harry or the songs and movies as well. I would agree that it is typically difficult to draw a line when there are lots of movies, songs, and TV shows. In that case it is best to include the category instead of listing each song or movie (see the Christmas template). However, in this case, there is just not that much Hannukah media entries on wikipedia and so it is not really an issue. Until it becomes one, my feeling is listing these songs and movies works in the template. But I can understand taking out Hannukah Harry since he is such a minor media reference. Your thoughts? Any other opinions? Remember (talk) 16:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- Whoops, reading more carefully I see Harry is already in there. I have serious objections to that. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC) "Hanukkah Harry is a fictional character, a humorous Jewish counterpart of Santa Claus." ????? There is no Jewish counterpart to Santa Claus and there is CERTAINLY nothing about the observance of Hanukkah that has a jolly fictional Jewish character portraying a cultural stereotype for "laughs." Please, please remove this whole category. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- I think the template is very pretty and has potential. However, I'm not sure I love the popular culture categories/inclusions. In my experience, it's hard to draw a line and you end up with 1000 links to songs, parodies, poems, etc. (I just killed a whole para like this that infested Talk:Gettysburg Address if you want to see one). How long before you have to link the (offensive, IMO) "Hanukkah Harry" character Seinfeld did on Saturday Night Live. Also, I have a problem with "Hanukkah Bush," which first of all, has basically nothing to do with Hanukkah and much more to do with Jews observing a Christian holiday, and secondly, is an American thing, so is limited in scope. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- Nice job, should be helpful. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree the template should not descend into WP:TRIVIA. The cultural references are not central to the topic and should be removed. Likewise, Hannukah Harry etc are not relevant to the topic. JFW | T@lk 18:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- I have removed the media section and put the Hannukah music article there based on the early response. If anyone wants to see how it looked like before the change they can check out this version. As for the Society section, any further thoughts? Remember (talk) 23:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- Applause to Remember for your time and effort on this template, plus your good natured acceptance and responsiveness to comments. Personally, I have no problem with inclusion of the Hanukkah Bush and Chrismukkah. After all, assimilation is one of the core traditional themes of the holiday. It might be a bit to Hasmonean of Wikipedia to exclude such syncretism from the template. Alas, we won't be able to editorialize on it either. ;-> Thanks again, Remember! HG | Talk 23:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- User:Remember, thanks for making the changes. Now I just have to convince you that the rest of my argument is right :) Although HG's comments are clearly meant at least partly in fun, I'm sure he knows that resistance to assimilation is the core theme of the holiday. Somehow, pointing people to examples of syncretism (a nice way of saying Jews abandoning their traditions to absorb Christian ones) is in my view totally backwards for the Hannukah template. If you and/or the other editors here don't agree with that, then I would ask you to consider two more points: one, AFIK both the "bush" and "Chrismukkah" are completely American things. There's no reason a British Jew or any user from anywhere looking at En.wikipedia should have highlighted for them a regional limited cultural fad (one which, no less, is not endorsed by Jewish organizations and which in the case of Chrismukkah was decried by a rabbinical board as "insulting" to Jews and Christians alike). To be consistent you would have to add local Hanukkah traditions from Yemen, Mexico, Russia, or wherever. Two, sure, you might say "Jelly Donut" or "MaOTzur" are equally subjective or random traditions to include, so why not these other ones? The difference IMO is that at least those traditions represent Jews celebrating Hannukah in idiosyncratic or regional ways; in the case of the bush/Chrismukkah these are regional ways in which Jews observe Christmas. I will join in the applause for Remember, both for making the beautiful template and for having the courage to take criticism, and I reiterate that I understand the whole thing to have been done in good faith, but I still strongly hope the remaining links to (non) Hannukah "traditions" be removed. Kaisershatner (talk) 14:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- I have no strong feelings about this. I figure if anyone else expresses an opinion against this (or no one expresses an opinion for a good amount of time) anyone can feel free to remove the Society section in the template. I am not monitoring this page so I may not respond to further comments here for a long time. Also, I am going to copy these comments and move them to the template discussion page (just so people will know what went on). Thanks for all of the kind words. I really appreciate them because I like to know that my work was useful to others. Cheers. Remember (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- User:Remember, thanks for making the changes. Now I just have to convince you that the rest of my argument is right :) Although HG's comments are clearly meant at least partly in fun, I'm sure he knows that resistance to assimilation is the core theme of the holiday. Somehow, pointing people to examples of syncretism (a nice way of saying Jews abandoning their traditions to absorb Christian ones) is in my view totally backwards for the Hannukah template. If you and/or the other editors here don't agree with that, then I would ask you to consider two more points: one, AFIK both the "bush" and "Chrismukkah" are completely American things. There's no reason a British Jew or any user from anywhere looking at En.wikipedia should have highlighted for them a regional limited cultural fad (one which, no less, is not endorsed by Jewish organizations and which in the case of Chrismukkah was decried by a rabbinical board as "insulting" to Jews and Christians alike). To be consistent you would have to add local Hanukkah traditions from Yemen, Mexico, Russia, or wherever. Two, sure, you might say "Jelly Donut" or "MaOTzur" are equally subjective or random traditions to include, so why not these other ones? The difference IMO is that at least those traditions represent Jews celebrating Hannukah in idiosyncratic or regional ways; in the case of the bush/Chrismukkah these are regional ways in which Jews observe Christmas. I will join in the applause for Remember, both for making the beautiful template and for having the courage to take criticism, and I reiterate that I understand the whole thing to have been done in good faith, but I still strongly hope the remaining links to (non) Hannukah "traditions" be removed. Kaisershatner (talk) 14:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- Applause to Remember for your time and effort on this template, plus your good natured acceptance and responsiveness to comments. Personally, I have no problem with inclusion of the Hanukkah Bush and Chrismukkah. After all, assimilation is one of the core traditional themes of the holiday. It might be a bit to Hasmonean of Wikipedia to exclude such syncretism from the template. Alas, we won't be able to editorialize on it either. ;-> Thanks again, Remember! HG | Talk 23:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Hannukah Bush, Chrismukkah redux
editOk, it seems like I may be the only one who cares at all about this, but I am still pretty upset that the Hannukah template links to "Chrismukkah" and "Hannukah Bush." I am soliciting more views, again. It is my view that the template pertaining to this Jewish holiday should not link to examples of American Jews celebrating Christian traditions, or if you take a less critical view, at least not to examples of American Jews celebrating some completely non-Hannukah-related cultural fads. I am not saying there shouldn't be articles about these things, since they clearly exist, just that the template shouldn't point to them. They also happen to be (1) regional (non)customs, rather than components of the Jewish observance of Hannukah, and (2) precisely opposite in intent from the core rationale of the holiday itself. And just to emphasize this, I have contacted user Remember and made it clear this isn't personal (I appreciate the hard work that has been done in an effort to improve the article). I have a very serious difference of opinion about it (it is my personal POV that (3) it is offensive to link to this; would we link to "Yom Kippur Brunch" on the YK template if some Jews "observed" YK by eating omelettes?). I would like to know if I am alone in this. Many thanks, Kaisershatner (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Christmas has had a big effect on observance on Hanukkah in the US, and not just among Jews with a Hanukkah bush. The fact that it is treated as a major holiday at all (as opposed to something on the level of Purim), not to mention the gift-giving, is entirely down to the influence of the secular component of Christmas. Perhaps we should really have an article on Hanukkah traditions in the United States or something.--Pharos (talk) 16:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- I object to them as well. don't think they should be there, nor County of Allegheny v. ACLU. I think this template should stick to Judaic topics, "Chrismukkah" and "Hannukah Bush" are more pop culture and the customs don't have anything to do with Chanukah per say, and everyone knows Hanukah Bush is said tongue-in-cheek. Lets keep this template serious. Epson291 (talk) 07:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Gelt
editIsn't food. --Dweller (talk) 10:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Hebrew title?
editWhy is the template titled twice, once in English and once in Hebrew? Shouldn't English suffice? They both link to the same article anyway, which gives the Hebrew in its first line. Huon (talk) 11:42, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Split
editThis template currently covers both Hanukkah topics and Maccabean Revolt topics. I suggest splitting it along those lines into one footer purely for Hanukkah and another purely for the Maccabean Revolt. The few articles actually relevant to both topics - probably just Hanukkah and Judas Maccabeus - could carry both footers. Huon (talk) 10:48, 4 June 2011 (UTC)