Template talk:Infobox U.S. county/Archive 2

This is an archive of data up to Jan 1, 2008.

Request

I originally left this on User:Timneu22's Talk page on May 11 and he archived it today without replying that I know of, so here it is again. Ruhrfisch 03:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Hi Tim, I made a third pass through the Ohio counties and added largest city in each. User:Nyttend and I have discussed these and thought there were a few issues which arose that you might want to know about.
  1. If the seat was also the largest city, it is not wikilinked the second time (per WP:MOS).
  2. For cities extending into more than one county, only the population in that county is counted to determine largest (so a small part of Columbus extends into Delaware County, but despite Columbus being the largest city in Ohio, the city of Delaware is the largest in Delaware County, Ohio (there is always a ref for such cases).
  3. Most importantly, there are a number of counties such as Vinton County, Ohio where the largest municiplaity is a village (pop under 5000 by Ohio law) and not a city (pop over 5000). In Pennsylvania there will be counties where a borough is the most populous. Could you please add "largest village" and "largest borough" to the template? Or if there is some way to make it just "largest" and the municipality is user specified (so we would have to enter city or village or borough - maybe city could be default - not sure of the programming limits here). Hopefully this is clear, please ask if it is not. Thanks! Ruhrfisch 16:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry I don't know how I missed your message.
  1. I do understand that we shouldn't wikilink a second time, but I didn't know that rule applies to Infoboxes; this is not a change I'm able to make right this second but I can do it tonight.
  2. What do you want me to do about this #2 issue? I'm confused if there is a request in here or what...
  3. Largest "City" is just a generic term for largest "village/city/borough". Honestly, I'm not too sure that this is worth changing. However, I can add extra parameters if it is really necessary. Again, I don't have time this second, but perhaps I could get to this by EOD.

Thanks Timneu22 10:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't worry about it - sometimes if many talk page messages arrive in a short time, I've missed things too. Only the third item was really a request, the other two were for information (if someone else goes through another state and runs into similar questions, here's how it was done in Ohio and soon will be done in Pennsylvania).

1) The largest city / borough / place is often but not always the county seat. I just removed the "wl" and delinked it that way, which seemed to work fine. I don't think that the code has to be changed (as there are many counties with a largest city other than the seat and these should be linked).

2) Just info, so it is done consistently.

3) The use of generic terminology is a problem in most US county and state articles. Every state seems like it has different legal terms, so if you use "town" in Pennsylvania, then legally you can only be referring to one place (Bloomsburg), but "town" is also a useful word to refer to cities, villages, etc. in general. Would "Largest place" work? How about just "Largest" or "Most populous"? I will ask User:Nyttend to weigh in here too. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 14:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is important to have something other that "city" available, if it would work. I like the idea of having "city" as default, but regardless of what we do, we should have an option for largest borough, town, township (at least in New Jersey) and village if possible. Nyttend 17:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a new city type parameter. It is optional... use "Village" and the page will display with "Largest Village", etc. Also, did you want me to address #1 ? Timneu22 21:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much. I don't think #1 needs to be addressed, unless maybe there would be a reminder in the comment in the template not to wikilink the same city (or whatever) twice. Ruhrfisch 01:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it was a simple change so I just made it. Continue to use the new variables seat wl and largest city wl. If these are equal, "largest city" won't be a wikilink. Timneu22 10:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I went through the Ohio Counties again and 14 of 88 (about 16%) have a largest village. If I made another edit, I added wl back in if needed (point #1 above) but did not fix all the counties where I had just taken the wl out before (if largest and seat were the same). Thanks again! Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks much Timneu: it looks much better! Nyttend 21:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Head of County

May I request adding the Head of the County(i.e. County Excutive, County commissioner, etc)? And the name of the incumbent. I just don't have the knowledge to edit a template. Thx Rayyung 20:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably want to make it a multiple entry field, if added. 87 of 88 counties in Ohio have three commissioners and all 67 Pennsylvania counties do too, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Time Zone edits

What is trying to be accomplished with the time zone edits? I really just don't think it works. For instance, I added the following to a page, and the results are awful:

time zone = Eastern
UTC offset = 5
DST offset = 6

Let me know what is trying to be accomplished, and we can fix this thing correctly. Timneu22 16:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I see what you're trying to do. I have made UTC/DST settings configure automatically when one of the "standard" time zone names is chosen: Eastern, Central, Mountain, Pacific, Alaska, Hawaii. For "exception" counties, {{{time zone}}} can be some other value, and the old variables can be used. Timneu22 16:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

"Saint" counties

The map of St. Clair County, Illinois does not display correctly. Either this infobox template needs to be modified or the map in commons renamed (both beyond my skills). Qblik 18:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem was simple: it needed to say Saint Clair County, instead of St. Clair County. This happens alot with "Saint" counties. Apparently the maps are stored as "Saint" and not "St." I took the liberty of updating that county's template even more, to use the current infobox. Timneu22 21:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This is really silly -- Why should the infobox need to be updated to display an inaccurate name? The word "Saint" in the county names is not typically spelled out -- why should it have to displayed be so in the infox? Why can't there simply be a map parameter where you can specify the image name? (Or even better, perhaps the wizards (I was about to say clowns) over at common could simply move the images to the correct names). FYI, I just came across this with St. Clair County, Michigan. older ≠ wiser 19:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It is silly. How do we get the image updated on Wiki Commons? Timneu22 23:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have contacted a WikiCommons person for help. Timneu22 23:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't get help, but I updated it myself. Timneu22 23:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Timneu22 (talk · contribs) just removed the "coordinates" parameter I added yesterday, with the edit summary "Having a template within a template doesn't buy us anything COORD is a good template, it should be used on its own and not in this one". Sadly, he is mistaken. Having the coordinates template inside the info box means that the coordinates become part of the hCard microformat; and that parsers present them with a text label rather than as a comma-separated pair of strings of digits. I've therefore restored them. Please also note the related discussion at WikiProject U.S. counties#Coordinates Andy Mabbett 16:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I am NOT mistaken. If you want to have a coordinates parameter, you need to make it easy for the user. For instance, this is easy:

coordinates = 45 x 72

You're proposing something that makes no sense to the average user:

coordinates = {{coord|some parameters that a user won't understand}}

The "coord" template is great, but you're using it wrong on this template. You should do this:

1. Add a "latitude" paramter
2. Add a "longitude" parameter
3. If both of these are declared, the "coord" template displays on the page. This template should display on the top of the article (Baltimore County, Maryland), and not within the infobox.

Timneu22 16:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

You are very much mistaken, as I showed above. How many users did you interview, to determine what the average understanding is? I am very familiar with coord and I can assure you that I am not "using it wrong" (sic). Andy Mabbett 16:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Dude, the way I proposed is so much simpler. I'm not trying to be mad about this like you are. I like COORD, but this is simpler:

 latitude = 39
longitude = 76

Then do this:

{{coord|{{{latitude}}}|N|{{{longitude}}}|W|display=title}}

This way, a user has to enter just TWO VARIABLES and doesn't need to worry about wiki syntax. Further, I'm advocating that you include this template in the US County template but making it easier for the user... I could just say "let the user put the template on the page themselves", as has already been done in certain articles. There technically isn't a reason to include it in the template, but I think that by providing simple means of including it (two easy parameters), it makes more sense for the average user. Timneu22 16:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say you were using "coord" wrong — I'm saying that it's wrong to declare "coordinates" as a variable which in turn equals a template. Timneu22 16:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not "trying to be mad". Kindly refrain form such ad hominem remarks. Your words were "you're using it wrong on this template". I am not. Your proposed method fails to cater for user who prefer to enter coordinates in degrees, minutes and seconds. That said, if you feel so strongly, why don't you implement your proposal instead of simply undoing - badly - other people's positive contributions? Once again, how do you think you know what an "average user" feels? Andy Mabbett 16:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about U.S. counties here. Minutes and seconds become unimportant as the geographic location gets larger. Degrees should suffice. Or, we should just keep the note that says "recommend using coord template". Honestly, that's probably the right thing to do. If a user wants to add coord, they certainly don't need to use a "coordinate" variable in the infobox. For this very second, I have added latitude/longitude variables to see how you like them.Timneu22 16:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Its still not in the infobox (where the display should be "inline,title"). Degrees equate to a precision of ~100km. Of course minutes are important. Andy Mabbett 19:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks better NOT in the infobox. Further, I have noticed that several counties use COORD already, and they use it in the title only. For consistency, we should leave it in the title only. In any case, we certainly don't need a template being called as a variable when the user could just drop the template on the article itself. Yes minutes are important — my mistake. Thanks for mentioning this template, I think users will like to use the new variables to easily put COORD on the article. Thanks again. Timneu22 17:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

As explained above, if it is not in the infobox, then the coordinates are not part of the generated hCard microformat; and the geo microformat which is generated has no text label. My point is supported by practical benefits for user and external parsers; yours appears to be merely a personal aesthetic preference. coord has only been deployed outside the infobox because of this current argument. Andy Mabbett 20:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

My argument is not about aesthetic preference; as mentioned before my point is about consistenty. Several "US County" articles already use COORD with the "title" variable. If we now add coordinates to the infobox itself, some articles will have COORD as a title and some with it as a title and in the infobox. This is inconsistent. We should strive for consistency. Further, it is now very easy to add COORD using the variables provided in the infobox. I have looked at Baltimore County, MD (which uses COORD via US County varibles) and Allegany County, Maryland (which has COORD placed on the article manually) and I find that there's no difference between the two. Timneu22 00:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

"It looks better NOT in the infobox" is an aesthetic opinion. But don't be worried abut consistency; the coordinates can go in the infobox for every single US county.Andy Mabbett 07:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

But why put them in the infobox at all? As I've said, several counties already use the template... why not just add COORD to the article. It's unnecessary as an infobox variable. Timneu22 00:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

As explained above, and elsewhere (where your response was to dismiss the explanation as "yada yada") Andy Mabbett 10:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's move the discussion there permanently. I don't understand what you're trying to say, and it doesn't make sense. Please answer the questions on that page. Timneu22 00:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Flags & Logos

Hey, can any we add maybe an option where we can display the flag of the county next to the seal like Template:Infobox Settlement. Also, what if the county has a logo besides the official seal. Can we add an option for that, too? Skillz187 03:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused... do some counties have flags and seals? I'm sure this can be done. Timneu22 14:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at my home county of Miami-Dade. It has an official seal, logo, and flag. Check it out.Skillz187 15:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it's done. Plus I updated your county's article to include the new fields. I have some minor tweaking left but it looks good! Thanks for the idea. Timneu22 16:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. You did a fine job and it does look good! Thanks again. Skillz187 16:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Projection to use for U.S. County highlight maps...

I am currently considering reworking the Colorado county maps so that they will be colored similar to Image:Map_of_USA_CO.svg (keeping the SVG format). There seem to be a couple of projections in use, and I am wondering which one would be preferred for this application. Current U.S. County locator maps use a azimuthal equidistant projection (such as Image:Map_of_Colorado_counties,_blank.svg which was based on a similar projection from nationalatlas.gov), whereas locator maps being designed for use with automatic placement of pins based on lat/long coords use a mercator projection (such as Image:Colorado_Locator_Map.PNG based on a similar projection from census.gov). Do those paying attention to this template have a suggestion as to which would be most appropriate in this circumstance? I am also going to post this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps. --MattWright (talk) 04:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I pay attention to this template, but have no idea what you're asking. Timneu22 10:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the two images of Colorado I linked above, you will see that the state of Colorado looks different (in one the edges are curved, in the other, straight). There are many different map projections to convert a spherical surface of the earth to a flat screen, so I was just curious if people had a preference on the projection used. --MattWright (talk) 17:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's a preference. Whatever looks best, really. Just as long as the files are named correctly so this template can find them (maps display automatically using a combination of state and county names), I don't think it matters. Timneu22 10:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I made the Mercator projection map (Image:Colorado_Locator_Map.PNG ) cited above, and used Mercator because it was what I could get as a free image off the web (from the census.gov site). I think most people who are familiar with Colorado would prefer the Mercator projection as it gives the rectangular shape expected, and not the curved edges shape of the azimuthal equidistant projection. Having said that, I defer to whatever the WikiProject Maps consensus is on this though. Thanks for raising an interesting question, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 12:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Coordinates values?

Just wondering, what values are Wikipedians using for coordinates when they put them in the county infoboxes? Since counties by-and-large are much larger than points, how does one pin it down to a single point? Is it the geographic center (by whatever definition)? Or is it the center of the county seat? I ask because in some that I was checking, the numbers differ from the coordinates listed by the U.S. Census Bureau in its gazetteer. (County list here.) The Census Bureau says its figures are "at the approximate center of the polygon formed by the legal boundaries as given to us by the state/local government. That means it could fall away from the built up area or even in the middle of a body of water." I'm just curious, that's all — I'm not implying that anything needs to be changed at all. Thank you. — Michael J 17:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems there was some debate if the COORD stuff was even going to be used. I'm not sure where it should be, but I personally like either the geographic center or the county seat. County seat is less subjective, but could be less accurate too. We should get more input on this. Timneu22 01:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In most cases, the difference between the county seat and the geographic center is minor — only a mile or two. But then there are cases such as St. Louis County, Minnesota, where the county seat of Duluth is about 50 miles from the geographic center. If we're looking for a consensus, my vote is to use the lat/long provided by the Census Bureau that I cited above. It has a consistent definition, it's from a reliable source, and they're all available right on one page! (Or if anyone wants them, I've transcribed them onto a sortable .xls spreadsheet.) — Michael J 02:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, census bureau seems like the way to go! Timneu22 11:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, if anyone wants the full Census Bureau table, I put it on a subpage of my userpage. — Michael J 03:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is the state graphic mandatory and uneditable?

While I appreciate the standardization, I personally very much hate the mandatory requirement that the state graphic is included and not editable. The article is not about the state and the state graphic is way too big. In county articles I've been wanting to use the reference map from the U.S. Census which is much more applicable to the article. I would prefer that the template be similar to the city template which has two map positions which you can add other more appropriate maps. In such a scenario, the state graphic could be defaulted into the template but if somebody wants to replace it with a more specific county map (which lists cities in the county) that should be permitted. Americasroof 03:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the map should remain, and it should be uneditable, keeping consistency between states. We need to keep a more global view on this: the map shows where the state is in the US, and where the county is within the state. By having just a map of the cities/towns within a county, this gives no reference to the reader whatsoever as to where the heck is this! The current template gives the reader and instance point of reference.

Some county articles have maps of the counties themselves, and I think that most users add these to articles when appropriate; there hasn't been a request for incorporating it into the template (although it doesn't seem like a bad idea, I guess). The current view has been accepted for a year or so; I don't see a reason to change it without some major consensus. Timneu22 12:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)