Template talk:Islam/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Part of a series?

"Part of a series" implies there is some co-ordination by some group of every article to which the template is stamped. Is there such a group? ...and if there were, do the rules of wikipedia allow such a group to control a subset of wikipedia articles? The template is intended as a navigational aid, not as a stamp of approval upon an article. Would not "Related articles on..." be a more approriate lead-in? --JimWae 05:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

See

Template:Bahá'í: Part of the series...

Template:Hinduism: Part of the series on...

Template:Christianity:Part of the series on...,

Template:Politics of Croatia:This article is part of the series...,

Template:Methodism:Part of the series on...,

Template:Christian theology:Part of the series on...,

Template:Gnosticism:Part of the series on...,

Template:Eastern Christianity:This article is part of the series on...,

Template:Historomania:Part of the series...,

Template:ReligionScotland:Part of the series on...,

Template:ScientologySeries:This article forms part of the series on...

I would go on but I'm getting tired of cutting and pasting. If you want to reform the terminology of wikipedia then you can, but you need to start on the policy pages and not on this template. I happen to like the wording of "part of the series on..." Cuñado - Talk 07:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

part of the series on.. agrees with me too. :-) Netscott 07:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it sounds good, if it's inaccurate, it's inaccurate, and shouldn't be used. We're an encyclopedia, not a collection of euphonic lyrics. --Cyde Weys 07:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not inaccurate. Cuñado - Talk 07:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It is inaccurate. There's no such thing as an "article series" on Wikipedia. The word "series" implies a topological ordering, which our articles simply don't have. Our articles are an amorphous web that link to each other through the nav template. It's not a "series", it's a "see also". --Cyde Weys 07:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyde, you've not expressed your view on this issue generally. Netscott 07:15, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

What does that even mean? An hour ago was the first I'd even heard of this issue. Where do you want me to express my ideas generally? --Cyde Weys 07:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

On the use of the part of the series.. text in this template. Heh. Netscott 07:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I see now... edit conflict hid from my view your previous edit. Netscott 07:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Errr, my view is that we shouldn't use "part of a series on...", but rather, something to the effect of "other articles on..." Is that what you're looking for? --Cyde Weys 07:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to a better wording if you think it's terribly inaccurate, but you should realize that not everyone shares those views and you should probably be arguing on some kind of policy page because it affects several dozens of articles. I didn't mean to start a fruitless debate here. I haven't seen a better wording for it and I see no problem with the current wording. Goodnight. Cuñado - Talk 07:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Righto then ... time for an RFC on "series" naming? --Cyde Weys 07:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking of the usage of the word series in terms of an expression like, "there was a whole series of articles on Islam". Doesn't that make sense? Netscott 07:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't make sense. Series implies order. See series. --Cyde Weys 22:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

You beat me to it Cyde! That was exactly what I was going to say. Perhaps a collection of articles? joturner 22:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Mathematical series?? What does that have to do with anything? It has a meaning in a narrow form of math, so what? See dictionary.com's definition of series.

Series refers to like, related, or identical things arranged or occurring in order: a series of days; a series of facts. In a succession the elements follow each other, generally in order of time and without interruption: a succession of failures. A progression reveals a definite pattern of advance: a geometric progression. In a sequence elements are ordered in a way that indicates a causal, temporal, numerical, or logical relationship or a recurrent pattern: a natural sequence of ideas. In a chain the elements are closely linked or connected: the chain of command; a chain of proof. Train can apply to a procession or to a sequence of ideas or events: a train of mourners; my train of thought. A string consists of similar or uniform elements likened to objects threaded on a long cord: a string of islands; a string of questions.

You could argue that "series" is not the correct word because the articles are not in order. But series has a secondary meaning of "A set of stamps, coins or currency issued in a particular period." That is the meaning that is being used it says "part of a series...". They don't have to be ordered numerically. Cuñado - Talk 22:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, except articles aren't "a set of stamps, coins or currency issued in a particular period", so the use of "series" is incorrect. That use of series is chronological. Take out a dollar bill and look at it ... it'll most likely say "Series 2003A", "Series 2003", or "Series 2001" on it. Obviously this has no relation whatsoever with articles, which aren't associated with having been created in a particular year. --Cyde Weys 00:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The following is copied from Template_talk:Christianity.

When I read , "part of a series on.." I sooner think of the example of a standalone Book series (ie:Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew) where although every book forms part of the series there is no need to read them in any particular order for their stories to remain coherent. Like, "A whole series of articles on Islam.". Netscott 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Book series are all written by the same person though. Bad analogy. What we have here is a bunch of articles on similar subjects written by lots of different people with no coherent organization in actually trying to fit stuff into a "series". Ergo, it is not a series. --Cyde Weys 01:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Cyde, you're talking out your ass. Follow the articles on Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew and you'll see that in fact multiple individuals (known as Ghost writers) wrote different books. SHOT DOWN, do you have another argument for me to shoot down? Netscott 02:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Seriously, don't be a dick. And you honestly can't see the difference between a published series of books all following the same brand and a collection of articles established by common linkage from a single navigational template? And by the way, I did read some of the Hardy Boys stuff when I was younger, and it was a series, in the true chronological sense of the word. It did refer back to events from prior books. And the books were published in a chronological order. --Cyde Weys 02:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This equally applies here. Netscott 02:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This is definitely going to make it Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. Really people. Calm down; it's just a word. joturner 02:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually I'm laughing... and totally calm... I just know Cyde a bit is all and I'm addressing him accordingly...lolz Netscott 02:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The shared talk above will continue on it's original spot over at Template_talk:Christianity. :-) Netscott 02:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Netscott, I have to wonder how 2 3 reverts in 90 70 minutes (with the only "explanation" being that others are lame & not cool & talking out of their ass) is keeping cool --JimWae 06:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• JimWae are you putting words in my mouth? User:Joturner was the one mentioning WP:LAME and I just commented on it. As far as keep cool that is standard policy WHEN A FELLOW EDITOR LEAVES EDITORIALLY MESSAGES LIKE THIS. And if we're talking about time, let's go back to 12:47, 2 September 2004 and realize that changing this wording needs to be done with consensus. Netscott 06:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
  • SOMETIMES MY CAPSLOCK KEY GETS STUCK AND THERE ISN'T A DAMN THING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. --CYDE↔WEYS 06:52, 19 MAY 2006 (UTC)

How/why is it useful to say the article is a part of a series?Timothy Usher 06:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I've just posted this over on Template:Christianity's talk page but this needs to be said here as well:

• Let's say that Wikipedia is a kind of company and publishes a kind of book (or set of mini-books -each article-) then this Cambridge dictionary definition absolutely applies to articles that fall under the same subject matter. Netscott 06:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• Let's say that Wikipedia is a kind of governmental system and publishes a kind of pamphlet (or flyer), then isn't Wikipedia really just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? --Cyde↔Weys 07:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• Cyde, are you going left turn on us? Netscott 07:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm saying your analogy is so strained as to be useless. Yeah, if I accept the premises that Wikipedia is something that it isn't and that it is doing something that it isn't, then it follows that a certain definition may be applicable. Since it isn't and and it doesn't, it's not. --Cyde↔Weys 07:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Unlike previous commentors, I'm not asking whether the designation as a series is justifiable. I accept that it is, within the fairly loose definition of what might be said to constitute a series. This isn't mathematics, after all. I am only asking, how is it useful?Timothy Usher 07:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you User:Timothy Usher finally a voice of reason. It's useful because it informs Wikipedia readers that there is a whole series of articles that fall under the subject related to a templated article. Netscott 07:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If the articles in the series aren't actually linked from the template, informing the reader that such articles exist isn't much help. Meanwhile, if they are linked, they already are. I've tried to make the blurb useful by adding a link to "what links here" for this template. However, I don't know how to do it without including the ugly bluelighted external link tag to the right of the bluelighted text. Is this possible? Thanks, Netscott!Timothy Usher 07:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Timothy Usher. Netscott 07:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Template linked category?

Perhaps this has been discussed previously but what about a category that lists all articles that actually have the template on them? Like this? Netscott 09:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree, it doesn't quite make sense to have a category for everything on the template. category:Islam already takes care of that, and if you want to know, just click on the "what links here" for the template. Cuñado - Talk 16:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I've made this easier for the non-WP-savvy reader by including "what links here" on the template itself.Timothy Usher 03:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the "what links here" might be confusing, I think linking to the category:Islam might be a better idea, and just remove that link from the template itself. Cuñado - Talk 18:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but the motivation of having the "What links here" link from the series word is so that people can easily find articles that share the template. Does anyone know off-hand if every article in Category:Islam carries this template? What about the idea of swapping the current What links here series link with the bottom index (category) link? Netscott 05:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Cuñado, what justification can there be to list articles as part of the series if they don't have the template? Conversely, what justification can there be to include the template on articles which aren't part of the series? There might be all kinds of reasons why the category might have a different membership, but "what links here" is the very definition of the series. If anything, this will help us keep an eye on the situation.Timothy Usher 05:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Timothy Usher, the series is the actual body of articles (set) covering the same subject under the single publisher Wikipedia... but I do agree with you generally about your What links here rationale. Netscott 05:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

We can't use special functionalities of Wikipedia (such as What links here) on articles. It breaks on mirrors and goes against technical guidelines. What links here belongs to the maintenance section, not the encyclopedic content itself. --Cyde↔Weys 18:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I actually had originally figured as much which is why I had created the Category:Shared Navigation Guide Islam. But now that the what links here link has been swapped out with the original index (link to Category:Islam) everything should be copasetic. Netscott 19:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the problem with that category is that just putting a navigation template on a page doesn't mean it's part of a series. Likewise, putting an article into the "Islam" category doesn't just make it part of a series. It's simply inaccurate. --Cyde↔Weys 01:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Heading still inaccurate

"Part of a series of articles on"

That's very inaccurate. The entire category on Islam most certainly isn't a series of articles. What is so wrong about just saying related articles? At least then we're being accurate. --Cyde↔Weys 01:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyde, might I suggest a request for comment or request for mediation as this debate is getting to be a bit longish? Netscott 03:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree. If you want a major change to hundreds of articles you should get wider support. Cuñado - Talk 07:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

A major change? Yeah right. It's a semantic change in the wording of a navigational template to make it more accurate. And I've seen a bunch of people stop by in here who said series is inaccurate and just you two in favor of keeping it the way it is. --Cyde↔Weys 19:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

How do you change the template?

Hi, I don't intend to change the Islam template, but just for my future reference for other templates, can someone tell me where the actual template is? How can I physically edit it? I've looked everywhere; where is it? Thanks. P.S. If you want to delete this message once it has been answered then you may do so. I appreciate that it has no relevance to this talk page. ~~~~ Sam —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.253.92.140 (talk • contribs) . 18:49, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Forgive my seemingly odd question but how did you actually get to this talk page as it appears to have been your first ever edit? Netscott 18:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I went to the Islam discussion page, then I went to Archive 4, then the first line says, Template Islam. ~~~~ Sam —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.253.92.140 (talk • contribs) . 19:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah ok Sam, please sign your comments by typing in ~~~~ (four tilde marks) at the end of your comments. I've just added a "edit this box" link to the template. But it can be edited directly from here as well. Just out of curiosity was there something in particular you wanted to add/subtract? Netscott 18:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok thanks. No, there was nothing I wanted to change. Just wanted to know in general how to access templates. I just thought that the Islam article is one where there is a lot of discussion and that questions would be answered fairly soon. I was right. ~~~~ Sam —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.253.92.140 (talk • contribs) . 19:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Sam, remove the <nowiki> bits and "properly sign" also I would highly recommend actually creating a username. Netscott 18:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Consensus, again

Folks, I'm noticing in editorial commentary on this template that there is conflict as to "consensus". At this point there is no consensus either "for" or "not for" User:Mystìc's significant change. Please see Wikipedia:Consensus for guidelines in this regard as well. Netscott 08:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course there isn't.Timothy Usher 08:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It's against the definition of consensus for a single editor to claim one. Pecher ^Talk 09:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a mistranslated understanding of the word? Netscott 09:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I am still confused and concerned about the consensus issue, I see 10 votes for it and 9 votes not for it, But I am told it is still no consensus.. How could this be.. I dont understand..  «₪Mÿš†íc₪»  ^(T) 13:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

By your count, 47% is against your change, which is far from the "general agreement" required for consensus. Read WP:Consensus and WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. — squell 15:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone could've simply pointed this out!!! Rather than beating around the bush..Thanks Squell. Anyway the calculation should be

• (9/21)*100=42.857142857142857142857142857143% is against the change
• (10/21)*100=47.619047619047619047619047619048% is for it
• (2/21)*100=9.5238095238095238095238095238095% who dont mind either.

wikipedia policy states that general agreement could be reached if 60%-80% agree or do not dispute something. In that case the neutral voters wouldn't dispute the change and could be aggregated with "for it" (please correct me if I am wrong). I qoute from the policy page "That said, the numbers mentioned as being sufficient to reach supermajority vary from about 60% to over 80% depending upon the decision, with the more critical processes tending to have higher thresholds"

dont know whether I misinterpreted the above phrase from the policy. But if I am correct I should have almost 57% of the editors who wouldn't dispute my image change.  «₪Mÿš†íc₪»  ^(T) 18:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

You are very wrong about agregating neutral votes with "for it" as it is equally concievable that neutral votes could be counted "not for it", didn't we already go through that lesson in logic? In this particular regard I would sooner say that 70% should be achieved for this change is neither minor nor major. Netscott 18:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

By the logic you've advanced here, Mystic, were there 40% for something, and 40% against it, then consensus would exist for both the change and the revert thereof, ad infinitum. That's the opposite of consensus.Timothy Usher 19:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Women in Islam, Disambiguation

Women in Islam was linking to a disambiguation page, I changed it to link to Women in Muslim societies, as seems appropriate given the context (sociopolitical aspects). Equendil

I agree with the name change. Suleyman Habeeb 18:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, someone reverted stating "Women in Islam can mean two things...", which I kind of disagree with given that the context is sociopolitical (the other meaning being Women in Quran). Anyway, my issue here is not one of semantics, as per WP:DPL, links to disambiguation pages should be avoided, this is especially problematic with templates, as every page using the template register as linking to the disambiguation page, which has two adverse effects :

• The disambiguation page appears as needed disambiguation because of all the pages that use the template (see the list at WP:DPL).
• The actual task of disambiguating links not from the template is rendered terribly difficult, since nothing distinguishes regular links and links from a template, in the "what links here" listing [1].

Now, there's several options when that happens:

• Disambiguating the link, which was contested.
• Merging the two articles if thir context is so similar that they require being linked to together.
• Linking to both articles (instead of "Women in islam" have "Women in Muslim societies and in the Qu'ran)

Any view on that or suggestions are welcome. Equendil 15:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since I see no objection, I'll go ahead with the plan. Equendil Talk 11:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Blank space

Why is there so much blank space between the logo and the listed items?Timothy Usher 03:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, that may be related to my making the logo clickable, have you found the same thing to be the case on Template:Christianity and/or Template:Judaism? What browser and OS are you using Timothy? Netscott 14:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. I'll take a look on another browser.Timothy Usher 02:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Muslim Member Template

"This user edits Islam-related pages."

this doesn't mean I'm muslim, or as previously "This member is a muslim"... Can anybody provide me with a clarification? Omernos 21:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sufism: Branch of Islam?

I don't think Sufism really belongs as a "Branch of Islam", considering that both Sunnis and Shi'is study it. It's not a seperate sect but an Islamic discipline.

True. --Nkv 15:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually came onto the talk page to ask why it was listed as a societal thing, rather than a branch. I guess there's some disagreement on the point. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Im also of the View that Sufism is not a Branch but Discipline. Which has been targeted by Modern Reformers.

Shanu —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.100.151.36 (talk) 09:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Sufism is to Islam just as Fiqh and Aqida are. It's not a group or a denomination just as Faqihs and Qaris are not. --Nkv 06:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Cross referens

Why dont we add:

part of the Abrahamic religions:

Judaism — Christianity — Islam

To the end of each template?

like this:

Template talk:Islam/temp

--Striver 12:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Because it looks terrible. Cuñado - Talk 16:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, its the not "look" im arguing, its adding the links to the top in any way that pleases you. --Striver 01:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

People always want to add more onto the template. I think it should be small and to the point. Adding a bunch of links un-related to Islam or adding an "edit this template" box just makes it look busy and distracts from its purpose. Cuñado - Talk 07:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

About the symbol at the top of the template...

I strongly object. If you use the cross for Christianity, and the Star of David for Judaism, then you MUST use the CRESCENT AND STAR ("Star_and_Crescent.svg") here, to represent Islam. You don't put a silhouette of the Vatican to represent Roman Catholicism--duh!

It doesn't look right. As other users have said, it reminds of the Taj Mahal. I think the most apropriate thing would be the Shahadah in caligraphy, like this: [2]. That is certainly a recognizable symbol.

• Possible objections:

It's too POV

It's not POV because it's not stating anything as fact. All that the the Shahadah means is "I testify that there is no god but God and Muhammad is a messenger of God". Plus, most people reading the article can't even read it anyways, they just see it as an aesthetic drawing.

Other religions don't have anything like it

We should set the precedent then.

But I like picture X better

Let's vote then.

--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 09:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The image is partly based on the Aswan mosque in Egypt. Actually the Shahada is not recognizable as an Islamic symbol, but the star and crescent is. If you would like to change to the star and crescent then I would support that. Cuñado - Talk 16:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the Shahadah logo is the best. Star and crescent logo is the second best option. - [User_talk:yasirniazkhan]] 14:50, 04 September 2006 (UTC)

Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali

Someone keeps trying to add Uthman and Umar to the list of "major figures". This subject was already hotly debated earlier and settled. The addition of Umar and Uthman were done without previous discussion on the talk page, so I didn't feel the need to discuss it before restoring it to the form which was stable for months. If someone wants to add them, please discuss first. Abu Bakr and Ali are obviously more relevant than the rest, being the first caliph and the first Imam, respectively. Cuñado - Talk 05:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Abdel Hameed Nawar (talk · contribs) has done this again without discussing it here. I'm going to revert it as a bad-faith edit (ignoring a request for discussion first). — Gareth Hughes 15:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Abdel Hameed, please discuss your edits before making any major changes to the article. It will save contributors (including yourselves) time. Failing to do that, i'll be obliged to lock the article untill discussions and a consensus is reached. Cheers -- Szvest 17:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Would someone be able to provide a link to the old discussion where this was decided? I've had a browse of the archives for this page but I can't seem to find it. --bainer (talk) 07:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Try Women, Allah as a figure, Yet another revision, and Ali AbuBakar. You'll see that it has been changed around a lot because everyone has different opinions on who is important. Regardless of what discussion has gone on, it can still be changed if you gain consensus. But I strongly disagree with adding three figures which have been added over the last few days: Umar, Uthman, and Khomeini. Ali and Abu Bakr are obvious, since they are the first caliph and the first Imam. Adding Khomeini is a joke. Cuñado - Talk 17:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing to those discussions. I have no strong views on the issue, although I think it could be argued that Umar and Uthman should be included, perhaps not for their religious but historical significance, in expanding the caliphate, for example, or Umar for beginning serious codification of law and Uthman for organising the standardisation of the Qur'an. But that's my view as a history student, and I have no problems if people want to reserve this template more for matters of religious significance. --bainer (talk) 15:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ali is considered the first Imam only in Shia Islam. Sunni Islam considers Ali to be only a companion of the Prophet and the fourth Caliph of Islam. For Sunni Islam, Ali is no more important than Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. So much so that many Sunni scholars consider their importance in order of their caliphate. So for them, Abu Bakr is the most important, then comes Umar, then comes Uthman, and finally Ali. Nevertheless, the four most important persons of Islam other than Muhammad are the Four Rightly Guided Caliphs — User:yasirniazkhan 14:25, 04 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, Uthman might be important to me because of the standardization. There are about 400 million people who believe the first three were usurpers who denied the expressed wishes of Muhammad for political gain. So don't try to argue that Ali is just some guy. Cuñado - Talk 01:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ali is only considered "first Imam" by the minority (i.e. shi'ites), albeit a significant minority. the majority, however, view 'Umar and Uthman as superior to Ali. it is entirely logical that the four khulafaa after Muhammad are listed in the template. is there any justifiable reason why they do not merit inclusion? ITAQALLAH 20:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I never said Ali is just some guy. In fact none of the companions of Prophet were just some guys. They were the most important people among Muslims. They were to document and carry forward the message of the Prophet. I am just trying to give a neutral opinion that Shias consider Ali to be the most important, whereas Sunnis consider him among the four most important companions of the Prophet. btw, Wikipedia says that 15% of Muslims are Shias and there are 1.4 billion Muslims, so Shias amount to 210 Million, not 400 Million, but that doesn't matter. Yasirniazkhan 21:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Question: will anyone object if i incorporate Umar and Uthman into the template per them being among the four well known khulaafah, as well as being a topic of controversy (esp. the former) amongst certain sects within muslim history? ITAQALLAH 06:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I would have a problem. As I already stated, Abu Bakr and Ali both stand out much more prominently, and are the source of the only major division of Muslims. There are a number of other people who might be considered important, like Fatimah Zahra. If you're just trying to list all for of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, then I would just remove the names and link to Rashidun, but that is strictly a Sunni version of history. Cuñado - Talk 02:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I dont really see a problem in adding the Uthman and Umar in this template. In the regular Friday 'Khurbta' by the Imam of the prayer, we always give 4 of them the reference, so there is'nt any really objection in adding them to the Template. In my opnioin it is really necessary that we add all four of them in the list. If some one has objection , please respond. And ther is not really necessary to lock the Template. The majority of the Muslims would definately agree with my opnion Mmansoor 11:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

That is right for sure. --Islamic 06:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

If some one is discrimitating and saying that Ali is like same as Abubakar, its not true. The advantage that Ali has over the other Cliphs is that he is from the family of Muhammad. As for the Calihps, all of them are of equal importance i'll put breifly about them here:

AbuBakar : Killing the Fitna and False Prophets, Zakat Collection, and keeping muslims under one flag

Umar : For creating the largest ever islami state

Usman : Writing down Quran and his pre-cliph days monetary and moral support for islam

Ali : For all of his life he worked hard, being a good fighter, and being the closest to Muhammad, and the unanmous option after the 3 caliphs

Mmansoor 15:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Time for Template Design Change

Hi! It is time to change the template design into an even more appealing look.

You could visit these related Wikipedia pages in other languages to see the design I'm talking about:

• http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam (in French)
• http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%9D (in Hebrew)

And instead of the mosque drawing, why not use the Islamic crescent moon as the religion's symbol? (IconeIslam.png) After all, a mosque is only a mere temple to the Muslims, not officially the religion's symbol. (Wanna us guys to fix the template up before Ramadan; 9/24/06 :D)

Crescent moon is not the religion's symbol. It is the Otoman's symbol. The mosque is a better choice.--Islamic 14:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

PLUS! If you guys need to ask any questions with respect to Islam, I'm here, I mean you guys seem to be having problems putting down details about the religion according to your conversations here. — Qasamaan 12:50, 05 September 2006 (UTC)

please do not make significant changes to the template without first obtaining consensus. a star and crescent would certainly be inappropriate, and is not related to islam (as islami said, it was used by the uthmaanis). ITAQALLAH 16:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't I know that there were controversies over the crescent moon? I thought it was a mere Islamic symbol, even if not officially recognized as the Star of David to Judaism, or the Crucifix to Christianity, does. - Qasamaan 20:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Or could I just change the background colors (same with the mosque) instead, or would that be a bad idea? - Qasamaan 20:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

But, if the crescent is not an Islamic symbol, as I just thought this mornin, then why are many countries (e.g. Algeria, Comoros, Malaysia, Mauritania, Pakistan, Singapore, Tunisia, etc) and a few non-Turkish groups using it? That is strange, isn't it? - Qasamaan 10:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

please see [3] [4] ITAQALLAH 15:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And please read the enormous discussions at A symbol on the template, Unacceptability of star and crescent, Crescent Moon (once again), New crescent picture, image change, Image Change 2, Discussion on What Symbolizes Islam, and I think there are more. Cuñado - Talk 07:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I am a big fan of the Islamic crescent moon for this template. It is the more recognisable symbol of islam rather than an object that doesnt resemble anything. I'd not consider a source that cant complete a sentence w/o quoting religious stuff a neutral source. I'd like to point out that we can use a mosque (existing image) and the crescent moon. Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar for instance features two symbols. --Cat out 00:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Until you read every single link I added above, I'm not going to respond, and nobody will let you change the template. Cuñado - Talk 02:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Missing Interwikis

I noticed that not all interwikis for this template are being put in place. So far, we only have three, and I learnt that there is a lot more out there in other languages. - Qasamaan 11:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Al-salamu alaykum. Listen, I already found the Hebrew interwiki for this template. You guys can help find the rest if you can. Thanks. - Qasamaan 12:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mu'tazilis

I think we should add this branch in template. They are more important than Kharijite--Sa.vakilian 02:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I have never even heard of this before. According to the page it appears to be a school of thought and not a sect or division. Try adding it to Divisions of Islam. Cuñado - Talk

I agree with you. We don't need to it. It's one of the branches of Islamic theology--Sa.vakilian 08:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Allah

When we click God in this template we go to Islamic concept of God, but there is a more complete article: Allah. I'd like to replace it. Also I think we can merge these two articles.--Sa.vakilian 21:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm indifferent. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, used in many religions. I try to avoid using Allah altogether because it gives the impression that Allah is different from the God of other Abrahamic religions. I think Islamic concept of God was created with the purpose of fixing that problem, so I would rather see that article cleaned up instead of merged. Cuñado - Talk 00:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal. The article Allah just deals with the word Allah (as it should, since it otherwise would just be a copy of the "God" article). I really don't think that's a central enough topic in Islam (the word itself that is) to merit inclusion in the template, and it certainly is not the same information as Islamic concept of God. -Elmer Clark 00:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't insist on my idea, but at least we should add too much about Allah from Hadith, Theology and Philosophy of Islam. Because this article just contains quotations from Qur'an. --Sa.vakilian 03:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Islamic concept of God is a pretty poor article, but I think cleaning it up and adding to it is the best solution. -Elmer Clark 04:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Word "GOD" does not has the same meaining as 'Allah'. Its not a matter of English or Arabic, but the work 'Allah' is always translated in all the languages as 'Allah'. Mmansoor 15:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Islam-related violence.

Please add something about jihad to the template, considering it's the most prevalent facet of Islam doing the rounds. Cerebral Warrior 14:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion on what is "the most prevalent facet of Islam", but I think most educated people would disagree with you. Islamism is already linked. Cuñado - Talk 17:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

cleaning up

I removed a number of items that were repetitive or non-notable. Sunnah, Women in the Qur'an, and Salafism were removed. Salafism should be blatantly obvious, women in the Qur'an follows link to women in Islam, and Sunnah is not a text, law, or of much importance compared to the other entries. This template in particular tends to build up excess fat over time because people love to add to it. Cuñado - Talk 05:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sunnah should come after Qur'an as the second source of Islam. It should stay there. I don't also see why "Salafism should be blatantly obvious"! --Islamic

The ranking is usually given as Qur'an, then Hadith, then Sharia. Sunnah is another word for Hadith. Salafism (Wahhabism) is one of dozens of sects or movements covered in Divisions of Islam, there is no reason why it deserves special placement on the template. Cuñado - Talk 06:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Salafism is in contrast to Sufism. Both are major branches --Islamic 07:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Hadith is not always source of Sharia per se, as you have weak, fabricated, authentic etc hadeeths. sunnah denotes (perceived) authentic hadeeths, and thus would be source of shari'ah. maybe it can be written as Sunnah (Hadith) or the other way around? ITAQALLAH 14:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

To me it seems silly to say that the two are completely different, like you said "sunnah denotes (perceived) authentic hadeeths" as if Sunnah is the name for good Hadiths, and others are questionable Hadiths. It's better to link to Hadith which explains the four levels of authenticity. Also, as an American studying ME studies in a university, I very rarely hear the word "Sunnah", but Hadiths are commonly discussed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard a good explanation to keep both links. Cuñado - Talk 04:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

ITAQALLAH is correct on that. Hadith is a tool for determining the Sunnah. Fiqh is based on Qur'an + Sunnah. Sharia is the islamic law and is part of the Fiqh. We can put it before Kalam since Kalam is not related to the group. --Islamic 02:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what should be included under 'texts and laws', why are you consistently reverting the other changes? Cuñado - Talk 03:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I already told you: Salafism is in contrast to Sufism. Both are major branches --Islamic 05:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That's nonsense. You're pushing it as important because that's the creed you belong to. Read over Divisions of Islam. There are literally dozens and dozens of schools of thought that deserve more show than the wahhabist brand. Cuñado - Talk 07:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit I don't know much about this, but Sufism#Controversy_and_criticism_of_Sufism does seem to indicate that Sufism and Salafism are sort of "rival" sects, and Wahhabism, which apparently is the same as Salafism (? if so should they be merged?) says that "It is the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and recently Western Iraq." That sounds pretty major to me.-Elmer Clark 11:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Salafism is the same as Wahhabism. Salafism was a few centuries older and was revived in the modern form of Wahhabism. But Wahhabis prefer to be called Salafis because they don't want to be labelled as a sect (they're true Islam, not a sect). Wahhabism is relatively new, and geographically limited to parts of Arabia. Again, this is no more important a movement than any of the four Madh'hab schools, the Shi'a Twelver sect, the Tariqah orders of sufism, including the Qadiriyyah order, Tablighi Jamaat, another revivalist movement in Islam, or in South Asia there are movements and sects that I assume far outnumber the Wahhabists such as the Deobandi or Barelwi. Cuñado - Talk 15:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Salafism is not the same as Wahhabism and that is why each one has its own article. Salafism (which is following the first three generations of Muslims) is a huge movment that existed since that time (the fourth generation). Its ideology is widespread from east to west and it does work knotting. --Islamic 06:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. See the difference between Salaf and Salafi. If you want to link to Salaf then that's fine. Salafism is a modern fundamentalist contemporary movement that tries to portray itself as the true form of Islam. Not to mention the article on Salafism is poorly written and unreferenced. Cuñado - Talk 07:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I know there is a difference between Salaf and Salafi. I am not talking about that. Salafism is not a modern movement. It did existed long time ago, and many historical conflicts were based on the Salafi-Sufi dispute. Your problem that you don't know the difference between Salafism (old philosophy) and Wahhabism, is a modern fundamentalist contemporary movement. Unless you understand the difference, you can in no way understand Salafism from the historical aspect. --Islamic 05:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Major Figures

User Islami is bascially inserting non-islami views and he is not aware of the facts. Just keeps on removing the Households from the box. does he dont know while reciting the darood we also say "salawaat on Alehey."

protect

Is anyone in favor of having the template locked by an administrator to prevent User:Islami's constant reverts to the template? Cuñado - Talk 04:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary when there's only one user doing the vandalism. I left him a message on his talk page; if he ignores it the best course of action would be to bring it up somewhere on the Administrators' noticeboard. -Elmer Clark 05:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

i agree that this box should be administered by some Moderator. User:Islami is reverting this box according to his own sect which is not acceptable to all of Islamic sects. Wikipedia should have views from all the sects and not limited User:Islami's sect. This person keeps on ignoring some important info. 202.63.229.194 06:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I am entering the phrase Household of Muhammad in the Major figures section. Everytime i enter it that section he reverts my changes. This is maybe because he does not have any good sentiments towards the Households. 202.63.229.194 06:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Get our of here. I do not object the inclusion of Household of Muhammad --Islamic 06:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

RFC

I requested comments on this because User:Islami and I have been reverting each other from October 10 to present (17 days). It comes from a dispute on what include in the section titled "Texts and Laws" on this template. For a long time it looked like this:

Qur'an • Sunnah • Hadith 
 Jurisprudence •  Theology 
  Biographies of Muhammad 
 Sharia

I cleaned it up and now I'm advocating showing it like this:

Qur'an • Hadith • Sharia 
  Jurisprudence • Theology 
 Biographies of Muhammad

While Islami is reverting to this:

Qur'an • Sunnah (Hadith) 
 Jurisprudence • Sharia 
 Biographies of Muhammad 
 Theology

The main issue is:

• I removed Sunnah because I feel it is repetitious to have Sunnah and Hadith both, and I was trying to reduce overlinking in the template. Islami insists that "Hadith is a tool for determining the Sunnah", in other words, Sunnah is what Muhammad did, said, and approved of, and Hadiths are stories passed down and collected about what Muhammad did, said, and approved of. Hadiths, in their own right, are divided into four categories based on authenticity (agreed upon, authentic, fair, and weak).

The other issues related to the reverting are inconsequential. Islami was proposing to keep a link to his particular brand of Islam on the template. Cuñado - Talk 00:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• RfC Response: The real issue here is layout. Now, if the two categories are so intricately tied together, it would seem to me that Islami's version makes more sense since from my understanding the Hadith is a part of the Sunnah. Unless there's a valid reason to keep them separate based on their actual definitions, I support Islami's version of the template. --Hemlock Martinis 01:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is the inclusion/exclusion of Sunnah rather than the layout that is the main point of controversy. -Elmer Clark 02:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Sunnah should be maintained as a second source of Islamic jurisprudence--Sa.vakilian 03:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment i was asked to respond. I am right now working quite hard to make templates for Fiqh and Islamic studies, organizing and standardizing those topics. When i am done with that, it will give the incentive to re-do the main Islam template. Due to that, i do not view it as incredibly important how the template looks right now, since i am in the future going to advocate for a restructuring of it. But till then, i favor alternative 3, with "Sira" being removed, arguing that it is redundant with the "hadith" link, and that it is to much details considering the prominence of the main template. "Qur'an • Sunnah (Hadith)" makes sense to me. Thanks for asking, and peace. --Striver 06:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: i would lean towards the third option as i do think it is important and logical for the template to recognise the distinction between "Hadith" and "Sunnah" in the same way the distinction between "Jurisprudence" (i.e. Fiqh) and "Sharia" is rightly recognised. ITAQALLAH 06:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I fully agree with Itaqallah that the difference between Sunnah and Hadith should be visible, just like there is difference between Fiqh and Sharia. Third option would be the best, except I couldn't understand that how theology is Kalam. TruthSpreader^Talk 06:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Instead of putting Sunnah (Hadith), it can be written as . Sunnah . Hadith . TruthSpreader^Talk 06:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• conclusion? It sounds like Qur'an, Sunnah, Hadith, Fiqh, and Sharia are all agreed upon. Striver mention removing Sira, which redirects to Sirah Rasul Allah, which is a poorly written article and subpage of Hadith. I updated the template to reflect this, and for asthetics I changed Jurisprudence to Fiqh so that they will fit on two lines. Cuñado - Talk 22:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Good work. Now, just change Theology to Kalam, and we will have an all-Arabic non-comprehedible for casual english readers template! lol, i don't know if that is good or bad, but that is the way it happened to be :P. As i was saying, i am thinking about a total re-work of this issue, i will return to this in a couple of month or so... --Striver 10:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Added Criticism of Islam

Please explain why Criticism of Islam should not be in the template. Note that we already have "Anti-Islam sentiment" in the template, so why if Criticism of Islam not there too? So I created a section "Controversy" and placed Criticism of Islam there. Good luck in the defense. --JohnsAr 02:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with adding that. Criticism of Christianity does not appear in Template:Christianity; Criticism of Judaism does not appear in Template:Judaism, etc. The templates should highlight articles about the religions themselves in my opinion, not the social perceptions of them. -Elmer Clark 03:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, I agree with you because you pointed out its not there in other religions as well. But I'll put back the link for the Portal. If someone finds a better place for the Portal, they're welcome to shift it around.--JohnsAr 14:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I will argue for its inclusion here and for the templates of other religions that have notable criticims. Andries 17:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the portal is certainly important. -Elmer Clark 03:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Reading Wikipedia:Portal I get the impression that portals are supposed to be used as a "main page" for different subjects, and direct people into the articles, and not to direct people from the articles into the portals. The template is a navigational box, so I don't think adding a link to another navigational tool inside the template is a good idea. People like to add things to the templates, but the best templates have the fewest links, and are simple. Cuñado - Talk 04:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Link for Portal and image used

I made a link for the Portal of Islam. Why didnt anyone add it here before? I have done so now. Can someone also suggest a better image for the Portal Link? They can be seen here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Islam

--JohnsAr 02:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Salafis

Islami, i reverted your version to Cunado19's. The reason is that you have a habit of ignoring other editors edits, and blatantly remove text you do not agree with. See it as a procedural revert. You do not gain friends by behaving in this maner.

Now, even though i am Shi'a and Salafis openly state they want to kill Shi'as (more or less for sports), it hapens that i do see some merit in including Salafism in the template. One could argue that it has been around for as long as America has, and that it occupies the holies cities and the media. On the other hand, they are mostly just violant loudmouths that hapen to have a strong interntet precens due to petrodollars and is arguably not all that relevant to the religion compared with the milenia old Shi'a and Sufi traditions. What does other editors think? --Striver 09:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact Salafi-Sufi disagreement has been since a long time, even before Ibn Taymiya time. --Truthpedia 18:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ibn Tayimiya was a Sufi. To the great despair of some Salafis. It was Ibn abd-al Wahhab who was the anti-Sufi. --Striver 21:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This is not the subject. Please stay focused. --Truthpedia 23:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

See the french version. --Truthpedia 18:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any reply, so I will go ahead with the change. --Truthpedia 20:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply to what? I haven't seen a reply to Striver or my comments? I'm changing it back. Cuñado - Talk 01:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The reply is there. Please read again. --Truthpedia 16:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I originally asked for a response as to why Salafism is more important than dozens of other Islamic movements and sects. See Divisions of Islam. Salafism is one of many. Cuñado - Talk 02:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

For the same reason we have Shia and Khawarij. --Truthpedia 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Another one-line answer that doesn't address the issue or provide any references? What more could I ask for?

To show that Salafism is the fourth-most-important movement in Islam, all you need to do is provide a few references, which should be easy if it is as important and prevalent as you claim it is. However that's not the case with this 150 year old movement. Sufism (Islamic mysticism) is an ancient practice that can be seen in many places as an important part of Islamic history and culture. The Encyclopedia of Islam here lists it as one of 9 categories under Islamic studies. amideast.org lists Sunni, Shi`ah, and Sufism as the "Branches of Islam". The CIA world factbook here lists four "major branches of islam", being Sunni, Shi'a, Ahmadiyyah, and Druze. Adherents.com here lists the same four. Integrated Publishing mentions here mentions Sunni, Shi'a, Karijites, Wahabis, and Baha’i. Encyclopedia Britannica does not have an entry for Salafism, but has one on Wahhabism, and dozens and dozens of articles relating to Sufi literature, movements, people, etc. To highlight the problem with even using the term Salafism, see this article from Encyclopedia of the Orient. Quoting:

"As is, Salafism is used in so many different meanings that it has become very confusing. Either the term is employed to identify important characteristics of many conservative Muslim groups which are known by other names, or it is used as names for some distinct orientations.

"Among the most commonly accepted ways of using the term, is to designate Wahhabism, although the wahhabis promote another term, Muwahhidun.

"Often Salafism is also used as another name of Islamism. The most extremist groups are distinguished by being called Jihadist-Salafis.

"When Salafism is used as an actual name, it is of the moderate, modernist reorientation of Islam as defined by the Egyptian Mufti, Muhammad Abduh, early in the 20th century. He used the principle of the pious forefathers, the salafiyya to create his understanding of Islam in a modern world..."

If the intention was to add easy access to an important modern movement, then you are confusing the issue by adding a link to an obscure fundamentalist ideology. What I really object to is a kind of self-promotion by insisting on linking to the ideology that the editors adhere to. There is already a link to Divisions of Islam that lists Salafism, Wahhabism, and many many others with brief summaries.

Regarding the Kharajite, I would suggest removing them as well, since they are almost extinct as a movement. Cuñado - Talk 02:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Kharajite is not an extinct movement. You knoloedge of Islam's branches is very limited. Again, Salafism is an old movement that existed under many different names. I see that you are trying to change its entry to force its defenition to the one in you mind, which is wrong. It has more followers than the 10% Shia, and obviously a strong political affect. --Truthpedia 19:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've provided several unbiased references. You haven't provided anything. Stop reverting the page. Cuñado - Talk 20:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You was unable to find a reason for including Shia and execluding Salafis. --Truthpedia 22:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, you were unable to provide any references to anything, period. You still have not shown any major academic institution acknowledging that Salafism is among the top 3-4 major branches/divisions of Islam. You have not shown anything showing that Salafism is other than a contemporary 19th century movement. You have not proven that Salafis outnumber Shi`a. Cuñado - Talk 00:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Margin causing some interference

I added some margin parameters in the styling of the template to prevent article text from bunching up against it. While an overall improvement, it seems to have caused a unfortunate side effect in at least one article, shoving the template below it off to the side. Can anybody with some CSS skills help me on that? --Rschmertz 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It was a problem with Template:Islam and iman. It needed a clear:right in the code. It's the equivalent of hitting enter, or adding a <br>, but only to the right side. In an article you can use <br clear="left> <br clear="all"> or <br clear="right">. Check out the Muslim page now and it will look fine. I also added the clear to the Islam template, so that it won't bunch up if other templates are above it. Cuñado - Talk 18:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Kharijite, and other groups

To the folks who want to add other divisions of Islam... please change the section title from "Major branches" to something like "Branches of Islam" at the same time otherwise such additions are non-sensical. According to the divisions of Islam article there are only three major branches, Sunni, Shi'a and Sufism. thanks. (→Netscott) 00:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The link to Sufism has been tossed around like a football. For a long time it was under branches, then people complained and moved it to societal aspects, then it got moved back and forth for awhile, or deleted, then someone added Salafism to counter Sufism, then we removed Salafism and moved Sufism back to branches to show that it was a significant movement. Now someone just deleted it. I realize that Sufis are not a sect like Sunni and Shi'a are, but I think Sufi should still be linked under branches, because it just doesn't matter. Sufism contributed as much to Islam as did the disputes over leadership, and I can provide several sources showing it as a branch alongside Sunni and Shi'a. Cuñado - Talk 16:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Islam-mini

I created Template:Islam-mini for use were the big template is to much. --Striver 13:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't like having the mini template. I would rather make the current template better and smaller. Cuñado - Talk 02:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Dawah

I suggest removing the link to Dawah that was just added. There are thousands of pages that could potentially go on the template. Cuñado - Talk 17:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the addition of Sufi as a "branch" is inaccurate. Traditional Sufis have followed a classical Madhab and a school of Aqeedah along with a school of Tasawwuf. It's more accurately placed under the same heading as fiqh, aqeedah etc. rather than under branches. I've removed it from there. --Nkv 04:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

revert

I changed from this version back to this version. The formatting changes made the text larger, the template wider, and the background whiter. I don't like the aesthetics of any of the changes. The content change from another editor was also poor. Cuñado - Talk 21:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The aesthetics of this are surely better than the one that was reverted to. Even the white background goes better with the green than the grey background that's currently in use. I see no reason why History of Islam should be displayed so prominently as if its the most important thing that a person would want to read about Islam (History is mentioned again in 'Societal aspects'). Also, putting art, architecture, science, philosophy, and academics under 'Culture' (or maybe, 'Civilization') would make more sense than under 'Societal aspects' (which btw, is linked to Muslim culture). I changed the linking of 'God' from Islamic concept of God to Allah, which could be debated. Except for these, the other changes were minor changes that needn't have been reverted and seem perfectly fine to me. --Bluerain ^talk 10:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't realize that history was linked twice, and it was a different editor that earlier insisted that history be near the top. I sort of agree, but it's not something I want to debate over. The grey background looks better because it contrasts with the non-template part of the page, but I also don't care to debate much over that. I would definitely prefer 'Islamic concept of God' rather than 'Allah' to be linked, because Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and there is a false impression that Muslims worship a different God than Christians do. The Allah article makes it clear that it's for several religions when speaking Arabic, not only Islam. One of the other edits was to change text size from 95% to 100%. I've always tried to keep the templates thin, small, and neat on the page, and I much prefer the slightly smaller text. Also, changing to culture sounds fine, that was not a big deal. Cuñado - Talk 06:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The current version looks great, except for the beige background. The mosque image is transparent on most browsers, but on an IE browser it's not, so the result is a white square around the mosque. I suggest changing the background to white, or off-white. Cuñado - Talk 17:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

About the 'Allah'/'Islamic concept of God', irrespective of whether Arab non-Muslims also use it as a word for 'God', it gets its significance from and is usually associated with Islam. Also, quite a few Muslims (and Qur'an translators) prefer to leave 'Allah' untranslated. You could also argue that 'Allah' isn't just an Arabic translation of 'God', but rather the highest Name of God, literally meaning 'THE God'. Considering all this, and that 'Allah' is the word most non-Muslims and a good number of Muslims use to refer to God in Islam, I think its best and safest that we have Allah in the template. If there are misconceptions, they can be dealt with in the article; they shouldn't become a problem in including the word 'Allah' in a template on 'Islam'. Anyway, a merger is being discussed, till when including both in the template seems fair to me. On a side note (and I don't know if you intended it as such), Muslims do not worship the same God as the Christians do; atleast not God as in the Christian Trinity. --Bluerain ^talk 17:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

On a side note, Muslims do worship the same God as Christians. Muhammad himself wrote in the Qur'an that him, the Jewish prophets, and Jesus all received the same message, and they all bowed to God (Allah). (surah 3:84, 2:136) You could argue that Christians have distorted their teachings, strayed from the Bible, and created multiple gods, but essentially the Qur'an testifies that the messages were from the same God. Cuñado - Talk 05:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic ethics

Can we add this to the template? I wasn't sure where is the best place for it. --Aminz 23:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's not. There are potentially thousands of articles that could be on the template, and we have to be ruthless. Zora 03:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamophobia

Guys for God's sake , its very important for a gazallion reasons. Donot remove it . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 12:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It is POV pushing. It shouldn't be included in this template any more than criticism of Islam should. If anything, maybe it should be included in the controversies template, but not here.--Sefringle 08:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It should be included here. Feer 16:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

My only reservation about adding an "Islamophobia" link is that it starts to head down a path of politicizing of the template. Primarily for this reason I didn't agree with it appearing on the template before (prior to the Criticism of Islam link appearing on the template) but with the addition of the criticism link there should be a link to the Islamophobia article for balance. (→Netscott) 18:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll accept it now on the condition that we have both links.--Sefringle 20:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism link

I propose adding a link to the criticism page. Back in December, the Mormonism, Buddhism, and Islam templates all had links to their specific criticism page, however Islam removed their citing the Judaism template as precedent. Ironically, someone wanted to include the Criticism of Christianity link on the Christianity template, and cited those as precedent. If this is going to be a matter of "Well the Jews don't have the link, so why should we" or "The Mormons have the link, so should the Muslims" etc, we should decided as a whole whether links to these criticism pages are appropriate for the parent religion templates. I believe that all religion templates should have a link to the parent criticism page (if one exists), and that is what I am proposing here. What do we think?-Andrew c 00:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

My only reservation about such an idea is that it starts to politicize the templates. I don't see religious templates as being the proper place for policization myself... but I could be convinced by a well reasoned argument. (→Netscott) 00:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Tell that to Template:ScientologySeries. I think that as long as fairly decent criticism articles exist for specific religions, it would only be balanced to include a link in the main template. If someone is researching Mormonism, would it not be helpful to at least have easy access to the criticism page? Same for any religion. Knowledge can be gained by listening to arguments used against specific topics. I think including one critical link, where applicable, would clearly fall under out NPOV policy, by giving space to other POV, while not giving undue weight (I'm just asking for one link, not a whole series of links, such as the scientology template).-Andrew c 01:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

A centralized discussion on this general topic can be found at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Criticism link on religion navigational boxes. -Andrew c 03:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussion was in favor of linking to criticism pages across the board. I'll restore the link.-Andrew c 02:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Islam and slavery

Am I the only person seeing an WP:UNDUE weight issue of having a link to the Islam and slavery article on this template? (→Netscott) 14:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think it's necessary. --Nkv 14:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Islam and slavery is one of the largest, most comprehensive, and well-reference article in the entire Islam series. By that fact it warrants highlighting in the template more than, say, IslamophobiaDavidYork71 01:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You added the link to the template, which is fine. However, it was reverted and concerns were raised on talk. Please do not add the link when you are the only person supporting its inclusion, and there are 2 editors on talk that oppose its inclusion. Editing without consensus, and multiple reverts is considered edit warring. Please consider building consensus for your controversial changes before editing the template further. Thanks for your consideration.-Andrew c 01:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sufism

I'm guessing to why Sufism isn't listed. It is noted as one of the Divisions of Islam in that article, although I understand technically it's not really a seperate sect. Even though, it does seem to me to be an important part of Islam, not really a fringe thing or anything. Feer 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I finally found out there is indeed a link to Sufism on the template. But I think naming it Tasawwuf didn't help me find it any easier. Also, it's in the section Texts & Laws? Feer 14:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sufism has been bouncing around between sections quite a lot, and there isn't really any consensus on where to place it. Do you have any ideas? --Bluerain ^talk 15:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

image

Wouldn't an image of the cresent make more sense to include in the template than the current image? like Image:Crescent02.png for example?--Sefringle 06:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Search on the word "image" in this archive. Those discussions were long and hard. :-) (→Netscott) 07:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Islam and animals

I see no reason for the (repeated) removal of Islam and animals from the Culture & Society section, other than an anthropocentric view. If architecture, children, art, and the like are included, animals definitely deserve to be there, in my opinion. The article could use some expansion, but is in a not too bad state, and adequately sourced, as far as I can judge. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 12:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

After three days still no objection? --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 03:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I just don't think it's noteworthy enough. We could put everything in the Islam category on the template and it would just clutter it up. The treatment of animals is a rather small part of Islamic law. It's like a minor subsection of Fiqh so a separate link to it doesn't seem noteworthy. --Nkv 09:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I am tending to agree with Nkv. The template should be about the central tenets of Islam (imho). (→Netscott) 09:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, have you guys seen the Template:Christianity? Thats 6 times longer than what we have for Islam. Look at Template:Judaism too. Now look at: Template:Islam - anyone now who says this template is gonna get too long? Infact, we need more topics in there, we need atleast 20 more topics and expand this template. Really. I'm surprised at how anyone could even object so I agree with Benne. --Matt57 21:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This template needs major expansion

Templates from other religions (Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism ) are much bigger as compared to Islam. We need to expand this template and create more topics and sections. I've made the template wider and added some topics. Topics are available from: List of Islamic and Muslim related topics

To the right is the template which is a Work in Progress. Here are the changes that have been made as compared to the present template:

• "Major Branches" renamed to "Divisions of Islam" and 2 other divisions included
• Criticism section addded and Controversy sections added and expanded majorly
• Many sections condensed
• Overall width of template increased. It is still smaller than the Judaism template

UPDATE: I have expanded many sections. We need expansion of beliefs and practices. After this a final trimming of the Controversy section will be done.

We need the template to be balanced. Please add more topics.

Essentially all of your changes are redundant as the "controversy" section you've added is already covered by Template:Muslims and controversies. Why the need for this redundancy? (→Netscott) 14:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. While the general idea of expanding this template to be a comparable size to the Christian and Jewish templates, I feel expanding the controversy section is NOT the say to go. Look at how much space is devoted to controversies with those religious groups? Basically one link. I would not support this proposal, but perhaps expanding other sections could be useful.-Andrew c 14:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I expanded that section as much as I could so people can feel that they can add as much as they want to. We can always trim down later. Yes the Controversies section is huge right now, so we need other additions too to balance it out. No doubt the template needs expansion so I started with my ideas. I wouldnt mind if we cut the Controversies section. So please, add sparingly to the template because as I said, this is a small template right now and Islam has so many important topics. Lets do it. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

This proposed template is a good example of POV pushing which frankly should be flatly denied. Why this push to accentuate controversies and negativities? (→Netscott) 14:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

As I have said, you are welcome to add to the template to balance it out. Here's the list again, it has lots of topics: List of Islamic and Muslim related topics. If people wont add the topics, I'll find some and add them myself. Lets not try to limit how much people can learn about Islam. Dont you agree, this template is too small? Look at the other religion templates. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Further, dont you think that without the controversy topics, the template is unbalanced as it only mentioned positive things about Islam? There you go. Inspite of that, I'm open to more additions from the positive side of Islam. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Again the POV pushing that this proposed template represents should be flatly denied. This is very evident given that the editor proposing this change is displaying the following lines on his user page.

"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

. (→Netscott) 15:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Netsott, what does that Hadith from my user page have to do anything with this debate? 1) This template needs expansion. Thats all I'm saying. Please dont bring in irrelevant topics which are unhelpful for the discussion. Ok, so you're not willing to expand the template. Fine. I dont see any cooperation coming from other editors like you as well. I will work on this template myself then. We'll make sure the template is balanced and provides equal coverage to significant topics in Islam. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 16:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The template can (and when compared to the othere religious templates should) be expanded but this suggestion is rather lopsided. Listing every recent controversy that involves Islam or Muslims is not scalable. I'll see if I can trim and expand a little to make it more encyclopaedic. In this form, it looks like something off a sensationalist Islamophobic tabloid. --Nkv 16:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Stating that this template should be expanded just because other religion templates are bigger is a very weak argument. Arguments like "...but X is doing it too!" kind of remind me of my childhood days. Note also that, for instance, at the Judaism template there's a recurring discussion about actually reducing the size of the template, because people feel it is too big. After briefly reviewing the changes you've made, it seems your true goal is expanding the criticism and controvery sections. If this is the case, you can just go ahead and admit it. If you have arguments, anything can be discussed, no worries, no grudges. But I would recommend not making big changes without first establishing consensus here. And yes, that could take a few days at least. Feer 17:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats why I made this temporary template here so we can work on it here first. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 18:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Feer here. --Aminz 02:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Consistency is important.--Sefringle 05:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Expansion should occur. Maybe we can start by adding the 5 pillers of Islam to the template proposal.--Sefringle 02:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've expanded many sections. The 5 pillars are there already, I beleive in the "practices" section, but we do need to expand Beliefs and practices. Thats all thats left now for this template, except trimming of the controversy section which I'll do in the end. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there anything specific you think needs to be added? Expanding the template just for the heck of it, "because Template:Judaism is big" isn't really a reason. --Bluerain ^talk 17:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all the topics I've added up til now have deserved their own place, like Golden Age, the 5 Divisions of Islam according to the article (previously there were only 2) and 3 other important divisions/movements that people talk about all the time: Wahabism, Liberal Movements and Salafi Islam. Besides Golden Age, I also added Music, Animals and Economics in the Society and Culture section. These are all good additions. Judging from the fact that we didnt have the Golden Age there, this template was definitely incomplete. Along with ofcourse the Criticism and Controversy sections, which contain major important articles about Islam. Most of the articles in these sections have many branches of sub-articles, so I believe its important to have the main articles there. Now we need to add to Beliefs and Practices, if possible. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 20:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

None of the sects you added are actual 'divisions' of Islam. Music, economics and animals are not important enough to be on the template. 'Controversies & Criticisms', which is your main addition, already has an entire template to itself and I don't see the point of duplicating it here. Cut out all these and there isn't anything else remaining to expand the template for. --Bluerain ^talk 21:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Those are Divisions. Visit the link, thats why its called Divisions of Islam. And those are the 5 sub-topics there. Why is Animals and Music not important enough? When you have Art there, why not Music? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

While I acknowledge WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, we have to admit that this was the initial rational for expanding this template. I'm going to have to say that since the Christianity and Judaism templates do not have such an expansive 'controversy' and 'criticism' section, I'm going to have to agree with Bluerain and Netscott and others who disapprove of adding that content here. I am all in favor of having the main criticism link (I personally pushed for it a few months ago), but this proposal is going too far. I understand that Islam is a very controversial religion to some people. I also understand that Christianity is a very controversial religion to some people. People oppose the religious right, the religion's general view on abortion and queer issues, and many other social and political issues. We even have a number of articles that discuss these in depth. However, these topics are not the sort of thing that needs to be on the main Christianity template. Same thing goes for here. We have a controversies template for Islam already. No need to repeat things here. The Cartoon controversy and the Pope's comments are not the sort of thing that belong on a religion's top tier template. -Andrew c 21:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Christianity and Judaism do not have Criticism and controversy sections because few people nowdays care. If there's one religion that is being critized, its Islam right now. The template should reflect the present interests of the public.--Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 00:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

i concur with Andrew and the others above. Matt, your argument appears to be recentist. ITAQALLAH 08:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added Animals and Children to the template. There is no reason to believe that these topics are less important than other topics on the template. Further, there's no established importance 'threshhold'. If Women are included, its appropriate to include Children and Animals too. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I see the edit mentioned above got reverted back and forth a bit. Let me give my 2 cents and my Salomon's Judgement. I removed the animals and kept the children. The article on Islam and animals is quite controversial as it stands right now and I think it should not be added - and if it were to be added it would best be done by someone who is not so heavily involved in the article and its disputes. The article on Islam and Children is fair enough, so let's say we keep that and for the moment skip on the animals. Feer 00:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What is so controversial about the Animals article? Its an article about a subject of Islam. If you have children, why not animals too? Women, Children, animals. I dont see why there's a problem. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 13:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Template format is hard to read

The new template format done on April 15 by Bluerain here is harder to read. Now we have smaller text that makes me squint my eyes basically. I would like to revert to the old format. I like the older one better. I'm also opposed to the reduction in size done by Bluerain just now. The template is now smaller and harder to read. Any comments? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 13:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Additions

This template needs to add articles about comparative religon including Islam and Judaism, Christianity and Islam, etc.--Sefringle 05:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Good additions, I support them. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 20:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Women, children and animals?

Don't class women as on a level with animals and children please.

It's a valid concern, I've alphabetized the section so that the three topics do not display together. — Gareth Hughes 00:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for changing it, I ddn't realize it was simply an alphebetization issue. BTW you accidentally deleted my second comment, probably cos it was unclear, so I am adding it again next with a rewording to make it clear that it is a seperate point.

Criticism of Islam and Islamophobia on this template

Given the sensitivity of these issues, and especially given criticisms that Wikipedia is US-centric, I don't think this template should include "criticism of Islam". There is no parallel on Template:Christianity or Template:Judaism, so the addition here seems to reflect the tide of anti-Islamic feeling, especially from the US. What is more, criticism of any subject, and these "Criticisms of X" articles are really out of place in an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is not meant to be a collection of sociological essays or critiques.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.221.112 (talk • contribs)

Look again. They actually are on those templates. Criticism actually can be encyclopediac. Encyclopediac topics are not just praise. Please take your opinions on criticism of Islam elsewhere. Wikipeedia is not a forum.--Sefringle^Talk 17:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

No need to be rude. I was making a legitimate criticism of the template with clear reasoning, not using this page as a forum at all. You said "Encyclopediac topics are not just praise," but criticism includes positive and negative, and neutral; so there is no way I expected the article to be only positive or only negative about Islam. And that's bizarre coming from someone who made the same point as I further up on this page.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.10.13 (talk • contribs)

Whatever it is, the other templates also have a criticism link so your point is moot. Also please create an account. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Nation of Islam

Nation of Islam should probably be added to this template somewhere; I just aren't completely sure where. --Sefringle^Talk 06:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That's nonsense. Cuñado - Talk 00:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

How so?--Sefringle^Talk 03:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

There is already a link to Divisions of Islam, and the Nation of Islam is no more relevant than a dozen other groups. Cuñado - Talk 00:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Dhimmi

I propose adding this to the template. It seems to be pretty important to the topic of Islam.--Sefringle^Talk 07:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Every time someone adds Dhimmi to the template it's an obvious polemic jab at Islam. This is a very non-notable concept of Islam, and has not been practiced seriously since the fall of the Ottoman empire. It is commonly proposed by slanderers as a reason for why so many people came to accept Islam (as if nobody would accept it otherwise), forgetting that it also asserted rights to people of the Book and exemption from military service. The template is already large and there are literally hundreds of possible links out there. You can't go add whatever you want and say it's "pretty important". If your intention was to bring prominence to something that you consider damaging, then the current template has a link to Criticism of Islam, and there is a separate template for Template:Muslims and controversies, which already has a link to Dhimmi. Please stop adding it here. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 04:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a very non-notable concept of Islam, and has not been practiced seriously since the fall of the Ottoman empire. Actually, it is a very notable concept of islam; just look at the article and how well sourced it is. By Wikipedia standards, it is notable. Dihimmi is how non-muslims were supposed to be treated according to the rules of Islam; nothing could be more relevant to islam (which is probably why it is on the Islamic Jurisprudence template). I will ignore your arguement about me alleged "intentions." This is actually one of the shortest religous templates (see Template:Judaism and Template:Christianity, both of which are much longer. But if for nothing other than historical reasons, it is relevant to Islam.--Sefringle^Talk 04:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Sefringle. - Merzbow 04:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The concept of Dhimmi has been a part of Islamic society only for certain periods of times. It may belong in something about Muslim history but has never been a universal part of Muslim culture.Bless sins 22:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is integral to Islam. Agree with Sefringle. Arrow740 22:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is one of the less significant components of Islam to be highlighted in the main template. ~atif ^{msg me} - 23:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Islam is as much a religion as it is a political system, and dhimma is the fate of non-Muslims under that system. Arrow740 23:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Arrow, and the fact that millions and millions of people have been subjects to this system (and as a matter of fact some still are) makes it essential having on the template. -- Karl Meier 10:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I originally said, it's obvious that the people trying to raise this to prominence don't understand the idea and don't know its relevance. Non-Muslims in a majority Muslim nation are given complete religious freedom and are excluded from military service. In exchange for the exclusion, there is a small tax. This is not a terrible "fate" or a reason to fear the spread of Islam. The reasoning so far for inclusion has focused on this POV idea of spreading perceived negative information. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"Non-Muslims in a majority Muslim nation are given complete religious freedom" - this statement alone shows you know very little about the subject you speak of (polytheism, for example, was not allowed, at least until the Moghul empire and then only in certain areas like Hindu India). I encourage you to read the Dhimmi article to explore the ways in which dhimmis were humiliated and mistreated (and then check the references for yourself to see that we're not making this up). Anyways, if being a dhimmi was such a great thing, you should be advocating including it in the template, regardless of whether you think we're doing it to defame Islam. For good or for bad, the state of non-Muslims under Muslim rule is a very notable aspect of Islam. (And I'm going to pre-empt your next point, which is that non-Christians were worse off under Christian rule, by agreeing with you). - Merzbow 17:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not think dhimmi defames Islam at all; to the contrary but this is irrelevant here. I am not saying it is incorrect to add this or correct to remove it. It is a matter of personal taste. Arguments like "the state of non-Muslims under Muslim rule is a notable aspect of Islam" are personal opinions as this is not part of the Islamic creed in anyway. Usually people are interested in things they care about; such things become very important in their worldview. The issue of Dhimmi is of no interest to most Muslims because it is irrelvant to them; based on my experience majority of Muslims do not even know the word Dhimmi.

If I want to mention my own personal opinion: Dhimmi relative to most other issues in the template is of relatively little importance such as "Philosophy" etc etc. --Aminz 22:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Merzbow, of course I should have said "people of the Book" instead of religion, but I thought since we're all so familiar with Islam here that it goes without saying. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I find it interesting that Bless Sins, Aminz etc. spend time arguing that an article regarding Islams relations with Christians and Jews is not important enough to be included, while at the same time they seems to have no objections to the fact that we include a link to an article that discuss Islams relations with animals. -- Karl Meier 06:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have not added the link to animals. And yes, it doesn't seem to be unnecessarily there. --Aminz 06:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree to remove both Dhimmi and Islam and animals. Both are about peoples/creatures that are not members of Muslim society. This section in the template is about Muslim Culture & Society.Bless sins 12:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree too ~atif ^{msg me} - 03:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Dhimmi is very specific, the template already has Islam and other religions, as well as links to specific religions. And yes please remove animals. In general I would like to keep the template as small and concise as possible. Commonly used templates tend to get large over time as people add whatever they think is important. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 14:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think both links should stay. The template is already too small. What the template really needs is expansion. And considering the importance of Dhimmi, I think it belongs. It should at least match the Christianity template in terms of length. Sefringle^Talk 01:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Sefringle, the Christianity and Judaism template have links to more important things like "Important figures", "prayers", etc etc but not on animals :P. Expansion in these directions is a good idea. Let's take those templates and see what they include. --Aminz 01:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that there is any guideline on the length of a religious template. In my opinion the template is already too large, and now we're talking about two separate issues: the size the template should be, and the relevancy of Dhimmi. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 03:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

BBC and other sources

I don't think we will convince each other based on our wit and personality alone, so I thought I would see what other sources consider in an overview of Islam. The first thing that came to mind was the BBC, which has an online program on "Religion and Ethics" featuring major world religions. See here for the index. At the bottom it has links to many things, including animals (yes the one that was mentioned earlier), and get this... Muslim boy bands. Unless I missed it somewhere, in the 88 links to articles, they don't consider Dhimmi as important as boy bands.

Seriously though, if you want to support keeping it in the template, please provide some neutral sources that consider it relevant in a general outline of Islam. I support the position of removing it because I think that is the most correct, the most fair, and the most NPOV. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 03:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The BBC says "pbuh." Arrow740 04:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Arrow, you need to read more why they used "pbuh" here and it doesnt make them biased ~atif ^{msg me} - 04:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

They defend it by saying they want to write about each faith from the point of view of that faith. They thus surrender objectivity. The BBC is not a reliable source for religious studies, anyway. Arrow740 04:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV does not mean "no point of view". WP:NPOV assumes that all sources and all editors have a particular bias since subjectivity is itself relative so one saying "pbuh" does not disqualify a source. NPOV requires that all significant view points be characterized and not asserted as true or false.--Tigeroo 11:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a consensus?

I don't think we still have consensus on adding or removing Dhimmi ~atif ^{msg me} - 06:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

from the above discussion, there doesn't appear to be consensus for its inclusion. ITAQALLAH 10:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

nope. no consensus for inclusion, and no consensus for removial. Yahel Guhan 22:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

if there is no consensus, then we should keep the original, it was added without consensus ~atif ^{msg me} - 02:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

no. we should continue discussion, or possibly go to mediation, but it is my opinion that it should stay. Yahel Guhan 02:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Sefringle, would you please let me know if "Gentile" would be a good addition to a "Jewish society" section in the Judaism template? As a matter of fact, the Hebrew Bible itself has more to say on the regulations re Gentile than the Quran has to say re Dhimmi. --Aminz 04:06, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

fyi, Sefringle is Yahel Guhan now ~atif ^{msg me} - 14:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite a pointed response. Islamic law comes from sources besides the Qur'an, as we know. Arrow740 06:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes it would be a good addition to that template in my opinion. The judaism template is, however, pretty stuffed, and I'm not completely sure where it should be added, and it's Yahel Guhan now (not Sefringle). Yahel Guhan 04:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides other reasons, this template is also quite stuffed. ~atif ^{msg me} - 04:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Have you even looked at the other religion templates? This is one of the smallest religion templates out there. Yahel Guhan 04:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps those who oppose the inclusion of this link on the template should say why they wish it weren't here? Arrow740 06:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

maybe you are not reading Talk page other than usual blind reverting. so many people have given their feedback why it should not be there ~atif ^{msg me} - 06:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Dhimmi is about one aspect of the historical socio-political interaction with other faiths. It's covered in the specific articles governing those relationships.--Tigeroo 11:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the relationship. It will stay. I don't understand why you guys don't like the idea. Is it an aspect of Islam you object to? Arrow740 04:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It is an aspect of the relationship of Islam and other religions, which has a separate section that deals with the treatment of non-muslim community members of Muslim society and the experience of the different groups. Culture & Society is about the Muslim members of the community.--Tigeroo 13:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It will not stay. As already said this topic is covered in other Islam related templates, but not important enough to be in the main template - as you have been pushing for it. Besides many other reasons have been quoted above already against it. ~atif ^{msg me} - 04:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

In the Culture and Society section, the article that discuss the conditions that non-Muslim monotheists (which among others include the members of the worlds largest religion) is offered under Islam, is indeed important enough to be mentioned. Also, try to respect WP:Civil and avoid accusing anyone of "pushing" anything. Fact is that there is no consensus to remove the link, and that it will stay. -- Karl Meier 07:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the history it appears more to be a case of there was no consensus to add it and the addition was what started the edit war. Dhimmi is just one aspect, it's is one aspect and a bit too narrow and dated in its focus there is a link to Islam and other religions which covers it or a different page on non-monotheistic religions could be added therein.--Tigeroo 13:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Tigeroo. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree also, it was added without consensus in the first place (which obviously got and will get so much opposition) and the "status quo" version must not have Dhimmi link. ~atif ^{msg me} - 18:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

How is it "dated?" It is the way that Islamic law dictates that non-Muslims be treated in an Islamic state. It was a huge reason behind why so many peoples that were subjugated by Muslim armies converted to Islam. It is enshrined in the Qur'an. Unfortunately, it is highly relevant to Islam. Arrow740 17:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It was added without consensus (and therefore started the edit war). It is therefore not unreasonable to ask for consensus to be established before its inclusion and the default "no consensus" option should be to remove it. → AA ^(talk) — 21:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It was added after a note was left here unresponded to for over a month asking for its inclusion, and once it was added, then the edit war bagan. As for your second point, that is pure nonsense. Instead of demanding one thing or another, keep discussing whether or not it should be included. Yahel Guhan 03:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Well it's clear from the discussions that have been had here that there is no consensus for it to be added. The fact that a note was not unresponded to does not prove consensus. As regards my "demands", firstly please tone down your language and review the Wikipedia consensus process flowchart to see what I'm talking about. → AA ^(talk) — 08:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

<reset>I support mediation. Should I file for one?Bless sins 18:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

not yet. Lets resume the discussion first. Yahel Guhan 19:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Joining the discussion, I'm generally against putting dhimmi in the template. However, that could change depending on how the template and the dhimmi article changed. As it stands now, the dhimmi article itself has been a push between people who regard dhimmi as a pillar of Islam, versus people who regard dhimmi as a concept varying between settings and eras. With that in mind, I'd support adding dhimmi to the template if the article made a clearer effort to show how dhimmi has varied throughout history. I would also be more sympathetic to adding dhimmi to the template if the template had a better layout for the history section, where mainly historical concepts could be included. 67.71.1.93 14:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I support mediation since there is not consensus yet (for adding/removing) and this will drag on without any conclusion. ~atif ^{msg me} - 15:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

no consensus to adding the dhimmi link, hence retaining the "status quo" version. ~atif ^Talk 07:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus to remove it, so the version that has been there for many days stay. Please stop reverting. -- Karl Meier 11:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The correct term is that there is no consensus to add it. You may also wish to review the Wikipedia consensus process flowchart to the process that needs to be followed. → AA ^(talk) — 11:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

as per the flowchart, the situation here is stuck at "Find a reasonable compromise", hence I suggest RfM at this point ~atif ^Talk 12:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree we're going to need mediation. dhimmi was added without any consensus, and has been part of a revert war for more than a month, now, from what I can see. 67.71.1.139 —Preceding comment was added at 21:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

This is getting way out of hand. Please stop edit warring or the template may become protected until you can work out your differences. -Andrew c ^[talk] 01:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record, the anon that reverted Bless Sins latest attempt to remove a relevant link from the template was me. I forgot to log in. -- Karl Meier 16:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record, this edit war has been going on for far too long. There has been no recent talk page discussion, but users still feel compelled to add and remove then add and remove the link over and over again. I have protected the page. Please work on a consensus while the page is protected. If you reach a consensus before the 10 days are up, contact me or another admin to unprotect early. If you do not a reach a consensus after the 10 days, and the edit war continues, the page will be protected again for longer. -Andrew c ^[talk] 14:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we're going to need a mediator. Nobody is actually discussing whether or not it should be there. Everyone is falling back on which is the real "status quo" version -- some saying you can't add it without consensus, and others saying you can't remove it without consensus. Someone needs to request mediation. 64.231.195.228 16:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

You had a week to discuss your changes, yet nothing, but you still felt compelled to continue the edit war. The page has been reprotected. Please work together to reach a consensus so the page can be unprotected. There was no excuse to not discuss the changes while the page was protection, yet still continue the disruptive editing the same day the previous protection expired.-Andrew c ^[talk] 05:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Andrew, quite a debate had been going on earlier in the Talk, but Dhimmi still continues to be added without consensus. As suggested by me and other editors, mediation seems like a better approach. thanks ~atif ^Talk 06:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't play innocant here. You have reverted far more times than I have, and you are the one removing it without consensus. If you think mediation is the way to solve this, what is stopping you from putting in the request? Yahel Guhan 06:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yahel, if you look through the history, you will see that you added it without consensus. You have made no attempts to gain consensus during the time the template was protected and, as Andrew highlighted, immediately reverted once the protection expired. Please take the time now to discuss the change and if necessary file for mediation but I would suggest you do not wait for another month and then restart the edit war. → AA ^(talk) — 09:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, according to wikipedia rules, the onus is on the person adding the material to show that it should be there. The default is to leave it at the consensus before the edit. I personally think the current template is fine, but I would encourage you to file for mediation. I would be glad to participate, and maybe some good can come of it. 64.231.195.228 02:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

That is a good point. So what's it going to be? How come no one is talking or trying to find a resolution to this stand off? Is anyone planning on filing mediation? RfC? I'd be glad to remove the protection early if editors (I'm looking at Yahel Guhan here) promise not to re-add the link without gaining talk page consensus first. Please, everyone, use this space and time to work out your differences.-Andrew c ^[talk] 04:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

no one is trying to find a resolution because those who want to add it believe they had a consensus when they added it. they have offered no other basis for adding it, other than by appealing to wikipedia rules that actually support leaving it out. I would be open to discussing adding dhimmi on its merits, but no one has tried to have that conversation yet. 64.231.195.228 20:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There was a discussion going on, until User:AA demanded its removial. That pretty much killed all discussion on the topic. Yahel Guhan 23:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yahel, you added without consensus and don't blame others. thanks. ~atif ^Talk 10:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggested it be removed until you gained consensus for its addition since it started an edit war (per policy) and looking back at the history of this thread, it does not appear you have made any attempts to discuss the merits of its inclusion since then. → AA ^(talk) — 12:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

I suggest someone file for mediation. The discussion of the issue happened a long time ago and certain people are determined to stick with their initial ideas regardless of what happens on the talk page. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. 64.231.195.228 15:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Is anyone going to file one? Yahel Guhan 23:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Islam and Modernity

The article on Islam and Modernity has been expanding, although it still needs some attention. Is it neglected because it's not of high quality, or is it not of high quality because it is neglected? Right now it is isolated in wikipedia. I think it is ready to see more viewers, and thus more editors. I also think that, maybe with a bit of work, it would be of high enough quality to be mentioned in this template. Other religions, including Christianity and Judaism, have a section on reform movements and modern interpretation. How do people feel about that? Yes? No? Not yet? 67.71.1.156 23:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

line break

{{editprotected}}

Please remove the line break between the <noinclude>{{pp-dispute}}</noinclude> line and the rest of the template. This is causing the text of each article on which this template is used to be pushed down the page. Thanks – Gurch 06:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

 Done → AA ^(talk) — 09:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)