Template talk:Jct/Archive/2009

Cities in Other States

It seems to me that a much cleaner way of handling cities in other states would be just to pass the city1 parameter as a full wikilink. If the template detected the parameter was already a wikilink, it would just display it as-is rather than attempting to make it a link itself. Brian Powell (talk) 22:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is a parserfunction that will detect the presence of brackets (the fair use templates simply detect if the parameter exists as an article title). --NE2 23:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation of Destination cities by county

Cities/Villages/Town names in Wisconsin (not sure about other states) can be used more than once - as long as they're in separate counties. Is there a possible way that we can disambiguate this in Jct?  — master son^{T - C} 21:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Not without a lot of work and an increase in confusing parameters - it's simpler just to write them out after the template. --NE2 23:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't the template have a county disambiguation thing already? I know it works in New York where you add "ctdab=[countyname]" and the location linked to will become "[locationname, countyname, statename]". --Polaron | Talk 11:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. I was thinking of Jctint and not this one. --Polaron | Talk 12:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Forcing lowercase on dirs

Is it possible to make every dir argument usage lowercase without having to go back and edit every instance? Example:

{{Jct|state=SD|I|90|dir1=West}}

would show up as
I-90 west.

Like many others, I'm guilty of capitalizing the direction more often than not, and I wouldn't wish it upon anybody or anybody's bot to go back and fix them all. I thought this would be a faster fix. --Fredddie™ 04:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Done, I believe. --NE2 04:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it indeed does work, thanks. --Fredddie™ 04:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps a more perfect way of doing this is to create a CSS class for the direction, and use that to force it to lowercase. That way if a user wants to make it West or WEST they can do so in their user stylesheet. That might require getting the rule added to Common.css though... —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 07:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Business plates for SC

Business plates currently "work" for South Carolina, but they were set up for the old black square shields. Would someone be able to fix it so it calls the new blue plate that just got made (File:Business plate South Carolina.svg), and also make sure it centers above the wider shield? It's currently being used on the bottom line of the infobox on South Carolina Highway 63. Pretty please and thanks in advance. :-) – Kacie Jane (talk) 00:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Heh, "Angel Fire's South Carolina Highway guide". Done, I think. --NE2 01:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me, and thanks for fixing the link template. My oversight. :-) – Kacie Jane (talk) 01:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Via?

On US 69 (OK), I came across SH-48 north via SH-78. I suppose it could be reworded as SH-78 to SH-48 north, but it's not signed that way. Could we add Via and have it work exactly like To? That way, the above could be entered as

{{Jct|state=OK|OK|48|dir1=north|via2=78|OK|78}}

and it would come out correctly.

Also, business shields were not working in OK. --Fredddie™ 05:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

US 34 Bus. (Chariton, IA)

Resolved

 – No action taken. --Fredddie™ 18:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I just created {{Jct|state=IA|Chariton|34}} for US 34 Business in Chariton. What makes this one so special is the shield is GREEN (scroll down). It's the only one in Iowa that I've ever seen where the whole assembly is green and white. The template should call the Vermont banner plate (since it's green-on-white, but it's not. Thanks. --Fredddie™ 18:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Iowa's standard is to use regular black-and-white shields for business routes. I'm guessing this one is just an aberration - even some of the photos still show black-and-white. The logic involved in changing just for this route would make the template even more complicated than it is now. I'd suggest just writing the image in manually to the page if you're insistent it be green-on-white or leave it as is. Brian Powell (talk) 18:31, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point. --Fredddie™ 18:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

How do I?

Road 121

How would I change this absolutely unreadable template (Where are the comments? This thing is a friggen maze) so that it doesn't show the number after the image? Its repetitive, unnecessary, and annoying. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 17:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If you just want to insert the shield image, why not just do it directly instead of using the template? --Polaron | Talk 17:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If you're talking about Kawartha Lakes Road 8, it looks like your main problem was that "Kawartha Lakes" but not "KL" was supported by Template:Infobox road/ON/link RR and Template:Infobox road/ON/abbrev RR. Road 6 (Kirkfield Road) should work now, but the image should be at 6, not 06. And there really should be a link to the image description page, but that has nothing to do with this. --NE2 18:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I had it set up to use KL since its quicker to type. But now it seems to not only include the number, but also 'CR' (Which it didn't the way I had it set up). I just want the template to display the shield, or at least be more customizeable (It seems to be set up at this point primarily for US roads). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 19:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, it should display the name of the route. It's not repetitive because the image is really decoration; it's the text that matters. --NE2 19:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a violation of WP:FLAG to have just the shield graphic and not the text? Imzadi1979 (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm manually entering the text, I just don't want the template to put in CR ## on its own. Not only that, but the images have a caption of the route number and an alt f the route number for visually impaired readers and text based browsers. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 01:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It should put in CR x because that's the name of the highway. The image is too small to read the number clearly, and I don't think there is alt text. --NE2 07:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It should not put CR in, as the roads are "Kawartha Lakes Road X", not Kawartha Lakes County Road X or City Road X. I'm not sure what you did to make it put that there. There should be somewhere on these templates that tells you where all the subroutines are to help in navigating. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Since shield graphics are purely decorative, they aren't supposed to have alt text. Instead, they should be set up the the link= parameter, and the parameter left blank. By default, {{jct}} sets up things that way. On the other hand, right after the graphic should be a text link (or unlinked text if the road won't have an article). If anything, it's the text after the graphic that is the important part, and the graphic is the extra information. The way you're describing it, Floydian, is the other way around though. That's the point NE2 is trying to make here. Imzadi1979 (talk) 07:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

But what I'm trying to explain is how I am doing it. First I have the sign graphic (That's all I want {{Jct}} to do), followed by the name of the road at that location, which links to the article Kawartha Lakes Road X. Since a good number of the numbered roads do NOT have a name, they are simply signed at intersections as Kawartha Lakes Road X. These roads do not need the number put in after the sign. This is the reason I don't want the {{Jct}} template to force the numbers. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, here's an example from the intersection table on Kawartha Lakes Road 8:

Road 30Kawartha Lakes Road 30

No need for two 30s - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

This was happening because CKL Road 30 was being linked twice. Once with {{Jct}} and the other hard coded. --Fredddie™ 04:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I made a change to the called abbrev template so that {{jct|state=ON|KLR|30}} should produce what you want. --Polaron | Talk 15:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that works... The only problem is for roads that do have names, its now Kawartha Lakes Road 06 Kirkfield Road. I just want to be able to manually enter all that jumble and have Jct purely to display the signs, so that I could put (manually), for example, [sign] Kirkfield Road (KLR 6). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: Or if theres a way to add a parameter that, if not null/empty, removes everything after the image. If this is possible, I can use Jct for the number-only roads as well as for the signs on named roads (describing these things takes a lot of brain power) - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Use the "name1" parameter: Road 6 (Kirkfield Road) --NE2 19:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I am doing this now. However, if you insist on having something prior to the number, I prefer Kawartha Lakes Road to CKL. I will not be using abbreviations, they are unprofessional. This is conformant with WP:MOS - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 21:00, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Abbreviations, when used by others, are completely fine. Canadian Pacific Railway talks about CPR all over the place. --NE2 21:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and its the choice of the article writer where to use, or not to use abbreviations. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 21:59, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

However, one should keep in mind guidelines such as the exit list guide. --NE2 22:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, the City of Kawartha Lakes abbreviates its roads as CKL Road #. After some wrangling, KLR|#, RR|county1=KL|#, and RR|county1=Kawartha Lakes|# all point to Kawartha Lakes Road #|CKL Road #. --Fredddie™ 04:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's the source I used. --Fredddie™ 04:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thats the point, I don't want abbreviations. The way I have made use of the jct template requires more than just adherence to a guideline for exit lists written several years ago for primarily American roads. I would like to adapt a more thorough style on these artcles, and keep consistency with their titles. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 08:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The standard is to use abbreviations with the Jct template. If you don't like it, hand-code the item yourself. Brian Powell (talk) 16:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRWP suggests following WP:ELG, which is what this template does. --Fredddie™ 17:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRWP is old and dead. I'm not sticking with standards used in 2005, so if you guys are going to play the stubborn mule game, I'll just make a new template and start fresh without your help. Thank you for nothing. By the way, the exit list guide applies to exit lists, and is a guide, not a rule. I intend to make some changes for the better, and one of those changes is phasing out abbreviations that articles don't explain to the reader. What the hell is a CKL? What is a CR? a RR? a DR? Stop lawyering a guideline to enforce a style issue on me which I will not conform to. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 17:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, ELG is a manual of style, not a guideline. --Fredddie™ 17:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Manuals of styles are guidelines, hence the big chunk of text at the top that says to ignore the guideline if it impedes on your objective over the overall quality of articles (And my choice not to use an abbreviation, as there isn't a common one (Outside of an odd article or document by contractors that use them)). If I need to bring in an administrator to tell you that you don't have the right to enforce petty style guidelines on articles you not only aren't writing, but know nothing about, have no intention of writing, and that cover a completely different country than yours, then that's what I will do. Next thing you'll tell me I need to display distances in miles first. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(abbreviations)#Acronym_usage_in_article_body, which contains that magical word, "if":

"If used, acronyms should be used consistently throughout the article."

In other words, its a matter of choice. I am choosing not to adhere to a guideline made years ago that covers an area of wikipedia that has next to no editors, and hasn't for several years. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 17:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

This pissing contest is going nowhere. Good luck. --Fredddie™ 18:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Banner for NJ-Byp

NJ-Byp needs a banner even though it looks like it should generate. I must be missing something. --Fredddie™ 20:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Fixed - {{Jct/plate}} didn't include state-Byp for some reason.

Route 33 Byp.

--NE2 22:52, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Enabling "banners" for NY

Resolved

 – Banners enabled for both NY and MI as requested below. – TMF 20:17, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Can someone enable the automatic banners for NY? At the same time, can someone document how to add other states? I consider myself to be well-versed with wiki code and templates; however, I can't make heads or tails of this code and no one bothered to write down how to make the banners appear automatically. Also, to whoever fixes this, the lone jct-generated banner on Pennsylvania Route 286 still has a link; it needs to be disabled per WP:ALT. Thanks. – TMF 05:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I've enabled the M-Bus type for state trunkline business loops in Michigan, but since it calls a combined graphic that includes the shield and the banner, it gets compressed to 20px in height, not 20px in width. I don't know how to switch it to call the separate shields and banners. If someone could fix it, and set up an M-Conn type for Connectors. Also, is there a Connector type for US Highways as well? Imzadi1979 (talk) 15:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

This is still an issue. – TMF 22:55, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

No words, just shields

I asked for this about a year ago and I've completely misplaced the location where someone told me how to do it, but it would be nice if I could use this template for shields and not have any links. I just want a template that lists, for example, a row of four shields, one with a Business banner over it and nothing else. Can you tweak this template to help? I find such a thing useful when doing major junctions where there are lots of cosigned US highways that do not conform well to this template, so it makes a mess. There are lots of uses I can think of for such a tweak. Perhaps we need an entirely new template (if one doesn't already exist) so we can adjust the size if needed. Basically it would do something like this:

Anyone got any ideas or can help? --Triadian (talk) 20:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

You mean where there are more than four routes? This is rare enough that it's probably easiest to simply write out the code (using Image:no image.svg). --NE2 05:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Globalization

Is anyone against expanding the use of this template to other parts of the world? I had the UK in mind, but I'm really open to anywhere that has a an article about roads. I think it would be smart to have a province= and a country= parameter, which would duplicate the state= parameter so this template wouldn't be accused of being US-centric. As far as countries go, I think the IOC country codes should be used much like postal abbreviations are used. --Fredddie™ 04:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Even better than the IOC codes would be ISO_3166-1_alpha-3 codes. --Fredddie™ 04:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

If the template is going to be globalized, I think it is really time to tear it apart, rethink and rebuild from scratch. The current solution is extremely difficult to understand and maintain, plus it is filled with a lot of hacks and workarounds. Let's figure out a way to build an easier, more extensible template rather than just slap more complexity on top of the spaghetti code there now. Brian Powell (talk) 06:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that there are more than 10,000 transclusions of this template (could be way more than that). Are you volunteering to AWB all of the transclusions to change over to a potential new template? --Rschen7754 (T C) 09:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that most of the changes could be incorporated without needing to use AWB to edit existing transclusions, but piling more on top of what is here now is not a good solution. Brian Powell (talk) 17:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Each country (or even each state) should have their own template. Even if its the same template, the current one is a total mess and it can be horribly aggravating to figure out what gets passed through where on its way to the final result. In addition, each country has its own roads wikiproject, and so it should be left to those projects to control those templates and add or remove certain features of them. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 14:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a new template for different countries, but not a different one for every state. That would become a maintenance nightmare and would tend to pick up different syntax, defeating a big part of having the template in the first place. Brian Powell (talk) 17:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

But having ~180 templates for every country in the world would be a nightmare as well. --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

A comment... not all counties use shields analogous to those in the US or Canada. I can see keeping those two countries under a single template and letting other countries create other templates. To address Floydian's concerns, the sub-templates for Canada could be set up not to use abbreviations, or use them only selectively. Brian is correct in that half of the utility of the template is the unified syntax. If I'm working on an article for another state or province beyond Michigan, one change in parameters is all that is currently needed to provide a junction for another highway. With WP:ALT becoming more important, more and more articles will be switched over to using this template in the future, so any radical changes should be implemented soon. Imzadi1979 (talk) 19:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with what Imzadi wrote. Keep US/Canada in a common template since they're already used together and have similar syntax and needs, but let other countries develop their own models. (Perhaps there could be a shared EU template, for instance.) I'm just worried that dumping a ton of other countries onto the existing system would make it even more of a maintenance and usability mess.

We could look at something like what the 'cite' templates have done where there is a common core but with a variety of variety of end use templates that build around it. For example, have a core that handles the shield generation. You could then build extensions around it for handling the correct positioning and formatting of abbreviations, cities and the like for different countries. Brian Powell (talk) 21:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose. I strongly suggest that someone who really knows what they are doing with templates design it, and discuss before making changes to the existing system. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Canada doesn't have as many needs as the US template, and it can be rather difficult to add things to the joint template. Also, Canada only has 3 road systems (county in Ontario, provincial (including Trans Canada), and secondary/tertiary highways). Though I agree that a core that takes care of most of the processing (Minus things such as the shields/sizing of shields, link formatting, and naming) would serve us the best.

Also, how many countries have road articles? Surely not all 196. How many templates make up ONLY the Canada and US highways? 52 states + 13 provinces/territories, multiply by 2.5 (most provinces have two systems, most states have 3 or 4, so this is just an inbetween), and then multiply by 3 (One for _abbrev, one for _link, one for _shield). With that you have 487. That is overkill. Not to mention the fact that there are only so many two letter abbreviations to represent different countries/states/provinces. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 22:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Nobody said that it has to be only 2 letters. Also, look at {{Infobox road}}. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Also in reply to the original suggestion by Freddie, state is quicker to type and therefore preferable. Anybody who is upset that there is no "province" or "territory" entry needs cheese with their whine. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 22:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I never thought there'd be anybody who would take issue to using common abbreviations, but that's neither here nor there. Truth be told, there's always going to be someone out there with an issue with state/province/country. That's why I suggested they serve the exact same function. --Fredddie™ 22:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

No problem here with that. Just as long as all three parameters call the same function. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 22:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Realistically, {{jct}} can easily be adapted to Europe: {{jct|country=D|AB|25}} for Route 25 in Germany. D is the EU abbreviation for Germany. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:52, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

but in the end, all that template is doing is calling a subtemplate for that country. Why not shorten it to {{jct D|AB|25}}? Its still doing the same thing, except all the code for denmark can come from one single template rather than 15 or 20. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 00:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

EU abbreviations are great until you include Norway or Switzerland. --Fredddie™ 00:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the EU gives Norway and Switzerland abbreviations too: CH for Switzerland, and N (I think?) for Norway. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

No. That results in way too many templates being created. The problem with creating a bazillion templates is that it is more confusing to the editor. Using one template that works consistently helps the editor greatly. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The only editors that understand this complex template are the ones that wrote it. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 01:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't write {{jct}} and I understand it... --Rschen7754 (T C) 07:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Likewise. Imzadi1979 (talk) 07:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Well yes, obviously if you do work on it as well you understand it. But I doubt it was immediately straightforward the first time you opened it up to add a certain place. The point I'm making is that a thousand subtemplates have no benefit to significantly less separate templates. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 08:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

There is a benefit: the editor doesn't have to look up syntax and can just use the template. Just jct, the state or province, the type, and the number. It's that simple. --Rschen7754 (T C) 08:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I set up the Northwest Territories and Yukon last night.Mitch32^{(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!)} 15:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

They have to know the syntax of the template, the specific name of the county they are adding to, the correct abbreviation for the country, etc. You have to read the instructions to know how to use it. Mine is the same way, except instead of state1=state, the name of the template itself deals with it. Mitch, how many templates did you have to edit or add to integrate those? Was it possible with a single edit? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 18:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

This is really a nonissue: to the end user of the template, the difference is negligible, and is in fact easier to use. As a computer engineering major who programs a lot, it is better to have one template and many subtemplates rather than many templates. I noticed that jcon has the route types hard-coded in: this is bad practice and leads to messy coding, making it harder to edit later on. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

UK

I have some examples at User:Fredddie/Jct. UK motorways and A# roads should now work. --Fredddie™ 08:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Here are a couple issues I've seen so far. --Fredddie™ 23:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Not all of the A# signs have SVGs, and we should use the SVGs where possible. How do we get the template to use the SVG before the PNG?
2. A large number of city links are [[City]]. Would anybody take issue with adding a switch to the city portions so it would not call the statename template?

1. use the ifexist function:

{{#ifexist: File:blah.svg | File:blah.svg | File:blah.png }}

1. Those cities should also have a redirect from [[city, country/region]]. It should be left to use the statename template for those cities that aren't simply [[city]]. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 21:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

In the UK we already use {{ukroadsmall}} where needed, it seems like a pointless exercise to be honest. Jeni ^(talk) 01:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)