Template talk:Ordination

created cardinal

should the date (and pope?) created cardinal be added?

I believe the correct term for when a bishop is made a cardinal is elevated. This is the terminology used through out the wiki page on cardinals. I have already made the change, if somebody feels this is an error I am more than happy to discuss. —Voltin ^(T|C) 19:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

thank you. I actually didn't know what the correct term was, so I figured that if it was incorrect, someone would fix it. some pages say elevated, some say created... it's really confusing... Aunva6 (talk) 19:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

ordained a deacon?

Is the correct term not "made" a deacon? As in the 'Making, Ordaining and Consecrating of Bishops, Priests and Deacons'? DBD 22:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that deacons are ordained, but I could be wrong -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 22:48, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

ICL Order redundancy

See Template talk:Infobox Christian leader#Redundancy of Orders DBD 17:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

New template

I have created a new template, Template:Episcopal lineage, that is intended to complement, not replace this template. It is used to display the lineage leading up to a bishop (including archbishops, cardinals, popes, patriarchs, etc.). It is configured to be used for Catholic, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and other Christian denominations that maintain a historical episcopate. An example of its use can be found on the template page or in the Pope Francis article. Ergo Sum 04:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Well done. I take it that the lineage is supposed to be collapsed by default? Chicbyaccident (talk) 03:51, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, collapsed is the default. Ergo Sum 22:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Merge templates

With the new Template:Episcopal lineage created, I propose merging this template with that. I think the aesthetics of episcopal lineage are preferable and recommend creating a new collapsible section within this template to include the information contained within that template. Thoughts? Ergo Sum 17:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Chicbyaccident (talk) 15:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I've mirrored the proposed change in the Template:Ordination/sandbox and at Template:Ordination/testcases. What do people think? Chicbyaccident? Ergo Sum 21:52, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks good. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Done. Reflected in the template. Ergo Sum 23:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support. It looks very well. --Governor Sheng (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Proposals

For consistency, as headings I would consider "Presbytariate"" instead of "Priestly ordination", and "Episcopate" instead of "Episcopal consecration". I would also put "as principal consecrator" on the next row. Furthermore, I would consider putting the dates on top of the people related. What's more, how about making the heading backgrund colour "gold" for Catholic matters, as is the case with many Catholic nagivational box? Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@Chicbyaccident: I had thought about that. The only issue is that Eastern-rite Catholicism currently is designated as gold in this template. It could be made so that: (1) both Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholicism are gold, (2) Latin-rite Catholicism is gold and Eastern-rite Catholicism is Latin-rite Catholicism's current color, or (3) Latin-rite Catholicism is gold and Eastern-rite Catholicism is some other color that is not already used. I would suggest option 2. Ergo Sum 20:59, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

OK. I would prefer 1, but better with 2 than now anyway. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:03, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Done. Ergo Sum 18:58, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Second collapsible section

@Ruslik0: Thanks for your edit in the template's sandbox. I had been thinking of ways to fix that issue. However, with your edit, the section collapsible section does not appear in Template:Ordination/testcases. There needs to be two }} near the end: one to close {{subinfobox bodystyle}} and one to close {{infobox}}. I'll keep troubleshooting, but would you mind doing the same? Ergo Sum 20:38, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

This template is a mess. It is hopeless. I have better thing to do than trying to fix it. Ruslik_Zero 18:39, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ruslik0: I've spent a tremendous amount of time for the last two months trying to revitalize this template essentially from the ground up (and am continuing to do so), so I really appreciate your weighing in. People contribute time voluntarily on Wikipedia; there's no reason to be discourteous with well-intentioned editors. I was merely drawing your attention to an issue that I thought you might have cared to know about, since you made an edit to try to fix it; it was a mere courtesy. If that's not the case, I apologize for bringing your attention to something you have no interest in. Good luck in your other Wikipedia endeavors. Ergo Sum 21:10, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

On creation/elevation for cardinals

There is a brief discussion above, from a few years ago, about the proper terminology to be used when talking about clergy being selected to become cardinals. Currently, this template uses the term "elevated", whereas other templates, such as {{Infobox Christian leader}}, use the term "created" instead. The latter is probably more reflective of the current practice employed, e.g. within the Vatican, where they often use "created" in reference to cardinals. Therefore, I would propose changing all instances of "elevation" or of "elevated" as it appears in this template's output to be changed to "creation" or to "created", respectively. The template parameters may have to be kept the same, though I admit that I'm far from an expert in this regard to try to modify this. Further thoughts will be welcome. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 15:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ravenpuff: This is a good point. Really, all of the headers and parameter names could use an overhaul. I will propose something in the sandbox. Ergo Sum 20:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata fault

Trying to embed this into Template:Infobox Christian leader at John Taylor (bishop of Winchester), solely by calling his wikidata, this isn't working. Please could someone better acquainted with the code figure out why? DBD 20:42, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

(Pinging @Ergo Sum:) DBD 20:44, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The template has not changed. It must be due to recent changes at Module:WikidataIB. Starting a conversation over there. Ergo Sum 01:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@DBD and Ergo Sum: If I paste {{ordination|fetchwikidata=ALL|onlysourced=no}} into John Taylor (bishop of Winchester) I get an infobox with three sections. Isn't that what is expected?

getValue is fetching info for John Taylor (Q655625) like this:

• diaconal ordination (St Paul's Cathedral, Arthur Winnington-Ingram, 1938)
• consecration in Christianity (Donald Coggan, Westminster Abbey, 1975)
• priestly ordination in the Roman rite (St Paul's Cathedral, Guy Smith, 1939) 

These are some of the calls used in {{Ordination}} for John Taylor (Q655625):

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463713 |qual=P748 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → Arthur Winnington-Ingram 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463713 |qual=P585 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → 18 December 1938 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463713 |qual=P276 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → St Paul's Cathedral 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463713 |qual=P131 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} →

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463713 |qual=P17 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} →

----

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463697 |qual=P748 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → Guy Smith 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463697 |qual=P585 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → 29 September 1939 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463697 |qual=P276 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → St Paul's Cathedral 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463697 |qual=P131 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} →

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q41463697 |qual=P17 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} →

----

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q125375 |qual=P748 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → Donald Coggan 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q125375 |qual=P585 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → 31 January 1975 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q125375 |qual=P276 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} → Westminster Abbey 

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q125375 |qual=P131 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} →

{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getQualifierValue |P793 |pval=Q125375 |qual=P17 |fwd=ALL |osd=no |qid=Q655625 }} →

I don't really understand what is meant by "isn't working". The information at John Taylor (Q655625) really ought to have proper references if we're going to use the information on enwiki (then we can drop the onlysourced=no), but otherwise, I don't see where the problem is. --RexxS (talk) 02:27, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS: Yes, those are all the correctly called values. However, as you can see at John Taylor (bishop of Winchester), these values are not being rendered correctly. This had never been an issue before, and there has been no change to {{Ordination}}. Moreover, when I test the template on other mainspace pages, a similar issue occurs, in which only some of the values are called. Ergo Sum 03:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS and Ergo Sum: It looks like an issue with the references - set "onlysourced=no" as a parameter for ordination in John Taylor (bishop of Winchester), and the values show, but they don't show by default as onlysourced=yes by default. It looks like the Wikidata properties have references, but the WikidataIB code's not picking them up for the qualifier values? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:48, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@DBD and Ergo Sum: Thanks, Mike. I've explicitly disabled checking for references for qualifiers (as we can't have them anyway). More values are now showing up in John Taylor (bishop of Winchester) - is that what you were looking for? The missing values are almost certainly a result of consolidating duplicate code by using some of the getValue subroutines in getQualifierValue. Let me know if it's still not right. --RexxS (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS: Most of the parameters seem to be working now. The only one that isn't is place of diaconal ordination, which calls Significant event-->diaconal ordination-->location from Wikidata. Perhaps this is because in the template, that parameter has |onlysourced={{{onlysourced|no}}}? Ergo Sum 16:42, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@DBD and Ergo Sum: No, it's because the infobox template has label5, data5 and header5. The header5 will always suppress the label and data with the same number, so I can only assume that this field has never displayed :( You will need to renumber the fields to ensure that there are no duplicate numbers (obviously labelN and dataN have the same number). Let me know if there are any other issues. --RexxS (talk) 21:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS and Ergo Sum: Thanks both. I altered the N numbering of labels/data/headers and now working as expected (see Taylor). DBD 10:09, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Simplify parameter labels

There's no good reason to have the long parameter labels that currently exist. They can be shortened and brought into conformity with other infoboxes. For example, date of priestly ordination would become date, and place of diaconal ordination would become place. The removed words are already conveyed by the section header. I have put this into the sandbox. Ergo Sum 01:53, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Done. Ergo Sum 02:41, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Missing denomination error

There are over 100 articles in Category:Pages using ordination template and missing denomination. Some I have checked seem to have |denomination=, like Gabriel Lam and Michel Mulloy so it seems to be a template issue. Jonesey95? MB 19:09, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

This appears to be an error introduced in the latest edit by Uzume. I restored the previous version to the sandbox, and it (a) does not display this error and (b) displays the correct color at Gabriel Lam. Uzume, can you please take a look? I fully support the use of WikidataIB, but something may have gone astray in the logical tests. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I think I have fixed it. The WikidataIB call was mixed up in a few different ways. I have fixed at least a couple of problems. I may have created further problems.

I may have added bunch more articles to the error-tracking category, because now the WikidataIB should be correctly checking to see if the Wikidata value is sourced to a third-party source (i.e. not from Wikipedia). If Wikidata item P140, "religion", is unsourced or imported from Wikipedia, it will not be used in the template. To fix the problem, add a third-party source to the Wikidata "religion" item, or add |denomination= locally (note that I have not checked to see if local values are discouraged by previous consensus). – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: It looks like you did the right thing. Thank you, —Uzume (talk) 09:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Preview warning and hatnotes moving to templatestyles

Page watchers may be interested in MediaWiki talk:Common.css § Preview warning and hatnotes moving to TemplateStyles Izno (talk) 00:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Church of the East

Hello, apologies I don't know if/how this would work as far as the code (and am also no expert regarding the religious denominations), but to me it seems the automatic colouring for the Assyrian Church of the East should be expanded to cover all branches of the Church of the East (specifically the pre-schism 'Church of the East' itself, as well as the Ancient Church of the East), to have one colour for the whole Church of the East? I don't know how to do this myself but would appreciate if others could take a look at it. GeorgmentO (talk) 14:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Idea for [adding] a certain hyperlink to this template

Some fields of this template (see e.g. "date of consecration" under "Template:Ordination#Parameters and usage") seem to be displayed with a label that says << "Episcopal consecration" >>.

I was curious about what "Episcopal consecration" meant, so I tried to "look it up"; and I was taken (via the 'redirect' page "Episcopal consecration") to the 'destination' of that redirect.

IMHO it would save readers some time, if the "label" in this template -- the one now displayed as just << "Episcopal consecration" >> -- were changed to be a clickable hyperlink ... (a 'wikilink'), pointing to that same destination. (right?) ...It could probably even do so "via" [using] the same redirect page.
(right?)
Any comments? --Mike Schwartz (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Bad output on Ordination heading…

Template rams together “Ordination history of” and the name in the banner.

See John Paul 1

Unfortunately I don’t have the skill to fix. 146.90.72.210 (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. I see "Ordination history of" on one line and, in larger font size, "Pope John Paul I" on the next line (both centered). MB 21:40, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Another Wikidata fault

This template will call values from sub-parameters of the Wikidata significant event (P793) parameter, including consecrator (P1598) if that item is entered as a sub-parameter of the significant event parameter, but not from the consecrator parameter if it is not separately entered as a sub-parameter of the significant event parameter.

So, eg, on Virgílio do Carmo da Silva, the template calls the consecrator item because it is included in the Wikidata item as a sub-parameter of the significant event parameter, but does not call the principal co-consecrator (Q18442822) items (there are two of them in that particular Wikidata item) because they, although entered as sub-parameters of the conscrator parameter, are not (and cannot be) also entered as sub-parameters of the significant events parameter.

Also, eg, if the template were added to Norberto do Amaral, it wouldn't call anything at all from Wikidata, not even any consecrator item, because there is no significant event parameter entered on the Wikidata item, even though there is a separate consecrator parameter with a principal consecrator (Q18442817) sub-parameter item and two principal co-consecrator sub-parameter items entered.

I think that to fix this problem it would be necessary at least to alter the template, and it may also be either necessary or useful to play around with Wikidata, eg so as to make principal co-consecrators sub-parameters of the significant event parameter as well as of the consecrator parameter. Bahnfrend (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)