Template talk:Owain GD's Lineage
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Gwynedd ancestry.
editThe lineage of Owain Glyndŵr is consistent for the Welsh medieval Kingdoms, specifically the three royal houses; Powys (Mathrafal), Deheubarth (Dinefwr), however, there has been confusion as to who his ancestors were in Gwynedd (Aberffraw).
Welsh scholars in books such as Dictionary of Welsh Biography,[1] or Roger Turvery, have him descended from Owain Gwynedd (possibly) or Gruffudd ap Cynan.[2] Whilst other sources state Llywelyn the Great (Llywelyn I) was his royal ancestor from Gwynedd (Owain Gwynedd's grandson), which also connects him to Edward I, King of England.[3]. Then, the third individual listed as Glyndwr's Kingdom of Gwynedd ancestor would be Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (Llywelyn II) grandson of Llywelyn I, again connecting to Edward I via Eleanor of England, Countess of Bar through Tomos ap Llywelyn ab Owain (intermarrying Deheubarth and Gwynedd in his lineage) in the lineage chart.[4][5] However, historians such as Professor John Edward Lloyd and many modern Welsh people refuse the claim of Glyndwr being descended from Llywelyn II because of the dispute regarding the inconsistent recording of his supposed daughter Catherine,[6] and also his ancestry from England and Edward I has been brought into dispute.
Therefore, in this article there have now been 2 lineage charts created connecting Glyndwr to Gwynedd, Deheubarth and then Powys. So, I updated the original chart posted showing descent from Gwynedd and Llywelyn I to the full lineage of Glyndwr as descendant of his Llywelyn I's grandson, Llywelyn II, thus completing his direct lineage from the final generations of rulers of Wales' 3 royal houses, which made him a direct descendant from all the original Welsh Princes of Wales, prior to the English title from Edward I. The update shows Glyndwr's ancestor from Gwynedd being Llywelyn II, which represents the work of Bernard Burke, (1844 & 1876 geneology research) the Norroy and Ulster King of Arms, of the College of Arms (college-of-arms.gov.uk), who are the geneological industry's highest standard and authority on the subject of British Monarchy geneology, supposing if there was an error, a correction would have been made of Burke's work from over 150 years ago. If someone wishes to contest Owain Glyndwr's whole documented lineage from Gwynedd as his final ancestor from the dynasty, and then also existence of Llywelyn II's daughter Catherine, then please talk in this article, or read and contribute to the talk pages: Talk:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and Talk:Owain Glyndŵr, as the 17th September, 2024.
References
- ^ Pierce, Thomas Jones (1959). "Owain Glyndwr (c. 1354–1416), 'Prince of Wales'". Dictionary of Welsh Biography. National Library of Wales.
- ^ Turvey, Roger (2010). Twenty-One Welsh Princes. Conwy: Gwasg Carreg Gwalch. ISBN 9781845272692.
- ^ Kenneth Panton, Historical Dictionary of the British Monarchy, (Scarecrow Press, 2011), 173.
- ^ Tout, T.F. (1901). . In Stephen, Leslie (ed.). Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 21. London: Smith, Elder & Co.
- ^ Burke, Bernard (1876). The Royal Families of England, Scotland (PDF). Pall Mall, London: Harrison. pp. 7, 43, 51, 97.
- ^ "Welsh Journals – Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 1918–1919, 1920". journals.library.wales. p. 138. Retrieved 31 August 2024.
Cltjames (talk) 15:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Checking the history of Template:Owain GD's Lineage I see that we only had 2 lines on the template until a Cardiff IP added a third one in 2019 [1] and then you changed all that this year. Neither the IPs nor yours match what Davies says. He says
His great-grandmother Gwenllïan was descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan
. This is not on the lineages. He also says,the direct male line of Gwynedd had undeniably become extinct in 1378.
The only place this template is used is on this page. We need to follow the sources and not synthesise our own research from a mixture of sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)- That's fine. I just wanted to bring up the full story involved in Glyndwr's ancestry. But maybe it's best we use your knowledge on the subject matter and alter the lineage to comply with Wikipedia protocol. If you like, you can revert. But keep the talk for those interested in the whole story. Cltjames (talk) 18:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)