Template talk:Pan-nationalist concepts

Greater Bangladesh

"Pan-nationalism is a form of nationalism distinguished by the large-scale of the claimed national territory, and because it often defines the nation on the basis of a ‘‘cluster’’ of cultures and ethnic groups..."

"Greater Bangladesh(is a political theory circulated by a number of Indian politicians and writers that the People's Republic of Bangladesh has aspirations of territorial expansion, to include the Indian states of West Bengal, Tripura, Assam and Andaman Islands as part of its own territory..."

One doesn't apply to the other. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 13:01, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Nationalism vs pan-nationalism

User:Fakirbakir I don't think that Greater X articles are pan-nationalist concepts. They look rather like nationalist-irredentist concepts. I see Pan-Africanism, Pan-Arabism, Pan-Celticism, Pan-Germanism, Pan-Iranism, Pan-Islamism, Pan-Latinism, Pan-Scandinavianism, Pan-Slavism and Pan-Turkism as pan-nationalist concepts, because they refer to the connection of more nations that have a common feature (the same language family, religion, or geographical region). Avpop (talk) 10:24, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

They are all pan-nationalist concepts. I agree your listed well-known ideas also belong to the subject. I am going to include them in the template.Fakirbakir (talk) 11:20, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that each irredentist movement is pan-nationalist:

The idea of pan-nationalism is that nation-states may participate or even be subsumed under a higher unity based upon ethnic, religious, geographical or other common features. [1]

The idea of pan-nationalism is that several nation states join a supranational governmental authority - for religious, historical, economic or defence reasons - but still retain their separate ethnic identities. [2]

Pan-nationalisms are generally defined as 'politico-cultural movements seeking to enhance and promote the solidarity of peoples bound together by common or kindred language, cultural similarities, the same historical traditions, and/or geographical proximity [3]

I have doubts that "Greater X" concepts belong here, I think they are nationalist concepts rather than pan-nationalist concepts (pan-nationalism seems to refer to a higher level, to a commnuity of more related nations/peoples/ethnic groups). Avpop (talk) 12:58, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree with Avpop. The "Greater X" articles don't belong here. "Greater Serbia" for example is just a way to refer to Serbian (a single ethnicity) nationalism that includes those outside of the (present-day) boundaries of the Serbian nation state. "Pan-nationalism" is not used in that sense in the literature. See, for example, all of these Google Scholar [search results].--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 16:56, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. For instance, Pan-Romanianism is clearly connected to the idea of Greater Romania. In the early nineties, the Moldovan governments were Pan-Romanianists and openly supported the unification of Romania and Moldova. Pan-Hungarianism and Pan-Albanianism are for instance also associated with the concepts of Greater Hungary and Greater Albania. Grossdeutschland is redirected to Pan-Germanism. "Pan-nationalism" has many forms. Fakirbakir (talk) 17:39, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

"“Pan-Romanianism” occupied a certain place in this context, one usually associated in the 1990s with the country’s Western, European alternatives. It found expression in cultural and political activism in both Moldova and Romania, benefitting from the support of authorities at times and feeding on the enthusiasm of partisans of the recreation of Greater Romania representing around 10 percent of the population, mostly intellectuals."[4] Fakirbakir (talk) 17:44, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Pan-Romanianism describes the post-communist movement for the unfication of Romania of Moldova. We speak about 2 peoples that are legally different: the Romanians and the Moldovans. I don't think Pan-Romanianism is applied to the pre-1920 ideas. What's the difference between irredentism and pan-nationalism in your opinion? Avpop (talk) 20:05, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

They are strongly related and sometimes they are indistinguishable.

• "It is sometimes difficult to distinguish irredentism from pan-nationalism, since both claim that all members of an ethnic and cultural nation belong in one specific state. Pan-nationalism is less likely to specify the nation ethnically. For instance, variants of Pan-Germanism have different ideas about what constituted Greater Germany, including the confusing term Grossdeutschland, which, in fact, implied the inclusion of huge Slavic minorities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire"Nation state.
• "Pan-nationalism": Form of nationalism that attempts to unite peoples of the same cultural or ethnic family under one roof, with or without a single state. Hitler and most German nationalists wanted to bring the Germans of Austria and the Czech Sudetenland into one country: Pamyat and modern Russian cultural nationalists want to bring Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians together under the banner of Pan-Slavism; while Pan-Turkism emphasizes commonalities among the peoples of Turkey, Central Asia and Western China. For interwar fascist, "pan-nationalisms" offered a basis for aggressive expansionism and/or irredentism."[5]
• "Popular sentiment concerning the fate of members of the nation living in another state and the desire to unite the national territory and bring together in it all the members of the ethnic nation finds its expression in irredentism or pan-nationalism."[6] Fakirbakir (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

In my understanding, pan-nationalism regards the union of more sovereign states that share a common feature (Germany + Austria, Russia + Ukraine + the rest of Slavic states, Romania + Moldova), while irredentism vises the annexation by one state of territories under foregin rule (e.g. Greek irredentism wishes the liberation of areas from Turkey, Mexico wants parts of the USA. Greater Mongolia would include zones from China). I'd like to see more opinions, so I'll make a WP:RFC Avpop (talk) 06:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

Should the "Greater X" articles be included here? What's the difference between pan-nationalist and irredentist ideas? Avpop (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Please qualify what we are supporting or opposing. My understanding is that "Greater X" applies here where it is relevant to the pan-nationalist concept, as well as irredentism - a separate category - where it is applicable. Irredentism is, in the simplest terms, a hark-back to previous concepts of a national identity and its somehow 'natural' claims to territories, culture, sub-ethnic groups, etc. Pan-nationalism can be supported by irredentist precursors, but can also (theoretically at least) be created from scratch via new models of ideology. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@User:Iryna Harpy So, if I understand it correctly, irredentism is a subcategory of pan-nationalism? The Greater X articles are also referred at Template:Irredentism and I was wondering if we can avoid this redundancy. Avpop (talk) 08:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)