Template talk:Phoenician cities and colonies

Timgad

was previously listed but the page is very explicit about its claims that it was a Roman foundation on virgin ground. If it was originally a Punic colony, the page needs to be fixed with appropriate sources before it's readded here. — LlywelynII 19:22, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Ship logo

The logo I created

Hi Elias Ziade, how are you?

The ship logo in this impartant (yet a bit neglected in its english version) template has been bothering me for a while, for it doesn't really represents a Phoenician ship (even if the creator thaught it does); so in the last few days I finally found the time to create a historical-based Phoenician ship (more precisely Hippos) logo. It is based mainly on the Timber Transportation relief, the colors are based on Egyptian art and even on Herodotus. I would like to replace the current logo with the one I created, tell me if it is OK :) פעמי-עליון (talk) 10:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@פעמי-עליון Hey! It seems like you've put a lot of thought and effort into creating this image for the template. It's impressive, and I believe it will be well-received. Thanks for your hard work, and I think it's definitely okay to replace the current logo with your creation! el.ziade (talkallam) 12:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks!  Done פעמי-עליון (talk) 14:49, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Rhodes and Delos

It is always hard to talk about Phoenician "colonies", since they used to settle in places for comercial purposes and mostly not to colonize.

For Rhodes, see Giorgos Bourogiannis, The Phoenician presence in the Aegean during the Early Iron Age: Trade, settlement and cultural interaction, Rivista di Studi Fenici 46, 2018, pp. 43–88; Fraser, P. M. (1970). "Greek-Phoenician Bilingual Inscriptions from Rhodes". The Annual of the British School at Athens. 65: 31–36. ISSN 0068-2454..

For Delos, see: Boussac, Marie-Françoise (1982). "À propos de quelques sceaux déliens". Bulletin de Correspondance Hellénique. 106 (1): 445–446. doi:10.3406/bch.1982.1923.; Pierre Roussel, Délos, Colonie Athénienne, Paris: Fontemoing, E. de Boccard, succ., 1916, pp. 89–92.

פעמי-עליון (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the problem with seeing these as colonies is that phoenicians were settled in these cities, but not in charge of them. That feels fundamentally different from the situation at e.g. Motya. Furius (talk) 22:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

This view of mine is a result of the Phoenician trading characteristics; definition based on the ruler of the city seems to me as an (unconscious) attempt to impose Greek-and-Roman-behavior-based definition on the Phoenicians. This definition is widely used, so it should be disscused, by my opinion is that in the Phoenician field we should use definitions that fit more accurately to their culture.

By the way, Why did you remove Agrigentum (𐤀𐤂𐤓𐤂𐤍𐤕), which was a colony (in the Greek and Roman definition of the term) of Phoenician Carthago? פעמי-עליון (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

What reliable sources do you have that explicitly call Delos, Rhodes, or Akragas Phoenician colonies? (having a phoenician name doesn't make Akragas a phoenician colony - Panormos had a Greek name).

I don't find the wider point convincing at all. There were Phoenician cities established overseas. There were Greek communities established overseas. Colony is a *modern* term for both. There were Phoenician communities in Greek cities (Delos, Rhodes, Piraeus, and at Rome), usually multiple per city. There were Greek communities in Phoenician cities (Motya, most notably). These are not colonies. Greek and Phoenician behaviours closely parallel one another in the archaic and classical periods. Furius (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Bourogiannis, for example, says "This is an intriguing hypothesis even though its archaeological confirmation is not fully satisfactory. Nevertheless, the impact that Phoenician pottery had on Rhodes in the aforementioned period is both evident and unparalleled in the Aegean and therefore it must reflect the strong ties between this island and the Phoenicians. In this milieu, the presence of Phoenician potters living on Rhodes as metoikoi is reasonable and easily understood." which is both very tentative and a long way from claiming the presence of a colony (a term the author seems to avoid). Furius (talk) 19:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this disscusion is a bit hard for me in English. I hope you are not offended, I really appreciate your answer; I just think that in the English wikipedia it is very hard for me to track topics that areimportant for me, so I kind of gave up. I think this is still an important topic, maybe it sould be disscused the WikiProject Phoenicia talk page.

About Agrigentum – of course having a phoenician name doesn't mean a lot :) but I think the result of Siege of Akragas (406 BC) and the starting point of Battle of Agrigentum are enough to say that the Phoenicians were long in charge of the city – this is according to the definition you suggested. פעמי-עליון (talk) 20:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Malta

Almost certainly, our articles have been passing along bad info and the actual settlement MLṬ was on the Grand Harbor at Cospicua, even though the Romans later used Melita for inland Mdina. Mdina and the island were known to the Phoenicians as 'NN, some version of "Ann". See Talk:Malta and Talk:Melite (ancient city). — LlywelynII 03:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)