Template talk:Politics of Wales

Counsel General for Wales

After the 3rd May Welsh Assembly election, my suggestion would be to add the name of the Counsel General for Wales under the name of the First Minister on this template. It would be an important piece of information. The Counsel General for Wales would be the member of the Welsh Assembly Government who would advise the Welsh Ministers about the laws they need or want to pass. Amlder20 20:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Template image

The image shown for the template (the 'royal' badge) does not graphically represent Wales. The 'royal' badge is not the official symbol of Wales and does not represent the country. It does not even represent the 'politics of Wales' - the Welsh Assembly Government's symbol is Y Ddraig Goch see here. An example of a template image that does graphically represent the country is Template:Politics of England. I propose that we replace the current image with the flag of Wales. of Wales (1959–present).svg This one looks good. Does anyone else have a view, if not I'll be WP:BOLD and just change it. Daicaregos (talk) 14:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Dai, as this has all arisen because of the edit of a single contributor, who didn't propose the change so people might discuss it first but just went ahead and did it, perhaps we would all have been spared some wear and tear to our tendons if you had just reverted it, as you almost did. Ah well, too late now. Enaidmawr (talk) 21:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. We don't need an image that represents Wales here, we need an image that represents Welsh politics and government. As I explained at Talk:Welsh independence, it's standard practice to use a coat of arms or other government emblem in a politics template, rather than a national flag. The English template doesn't follow the convention, perhaps because - unlike the UK, Scotland and Wales - there is no "English Government" as such, only a UK Government and devolved administrations (there was no devolution to England). Acts of the Westminster Parliament bear the Royal Arms of the United Kingdom, and this is used at Template:Politics of the United Kingdom rather than the Union Flag or the Westminster Portcullis emblem.[1] Acts of the Scottish Parliament bear the version of the royal arms used in Scotland, and this is used at Template:Politics of Scotland even though the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament both use the saltire in their logos.[2][3] The Royal Badge of Wales has been designed specifically as the Welsh alternative to the royal arms, and it will appear on all future Assembly Measures.[4] It is appropriate in the government context, because in the British constitution political sovereignty resides in the Crown in Parliament,[5] and as head of state the queen approves Assembly Measures via Orders In Council. I know that this may be anathema to nationalists and republicans, but we should try to describe the system as it is and in accordance with the general practice elsewhere. Pondle (talk) 16:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Pondle. There isn't a great deal I can add to the convo beyond that, other than I think the case for keeping it is strong. --Jza84 |  Talk  20:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Its not standard practice - the equivalent template for England uses the flag of St George. I don't see how the lack of devolved government for England has anything to do with this. The Royal Badge is recent, and is little known. Y Ddraig Goch is the universal symbol for Wales. --Snowded ^TALK 21:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Snowded, you picked one of the few examples that deviate from the norm. If you look at politics templates from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe by way of Australia, France, Germany, Ireland and the USA, they all use either a coat of arms or some similar official governmental emblem rather than a national flag. Editors active at Politics of England will have to explain to you why they have differed from normal practice; I simply guessed that it might have something to do with the fact that there is no English government or English legislation (only acts of the UK Parliament that might apply to England only), hence no appropriate official emblems.Pondle (talk) 13:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Pondle that the 'royal' badge represents the Assembly Measures, or LCOs, but LCOs are only a small part of Welsh politics. The assembly use the "royal" badge only for LCOs. The assemby itself is represented by a dragon see here, or go to the senedd. I've been to the senedd since the "royal" badge was so graciously granted to the people/peasants of Wales and there was no representation of the "royal" badge on show. I doubt if there is one there now and I doubt if there ever will be. If you look at some other countries'politics templates you can see why their emblems, coats of arms and badges have been included. For example, the Template:Politics of the United States shows their 'Great Seal' next to the flag. This is used on passports, and variations on the 'Great Seal' design are used in an official capacity by the judiciary, and other government agencies. In many cases, the equivalent in Wales are UK institutions, however, many indigenous political institutions use a dragon symbol (The Welsh Assembly Government, Visit Wales, numerous local Authorities, including Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and St David's, Rhondda, Cynnon Taf, Blaenau Gwent and Carmarthenshire). Indeed, the dragon is seen as a shorthand for all things Welsh, which is why we should show the dragon emblem in the template. The badge could still be shown, but on the Assembly Measures or LCOs articles, where, strangely, it isn't shown. If the badge remains in its current position, the general reader sees a shield with a disproportionate royal crown above it, surrounded by the symbols of other countries. Some may say that reflects Wales as it is today. Me, I think Welsh politics should be represented by a dragon. Daicaregos (talk) 08:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Dai, the Assembly Government uses a version of the dragon as a 'brand mark'[6] - it's similar to a corporate logo, and I don't think it's appropriate in this template even before we've considered any copyright issues (the National Assembly also has a similar but distinctive logo, and the same applies). The situation we have here is analogous to Scotland where the saltire is used on the corporate branding of both the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament,[7][8] but editors have deemed it appropriate to stick to the general convention on politics templates and use the (less well-known?) Scottish version of the royal arms, which appears on Scottish legislation. As I've said before in this discussion, I don't believe we need an emblem in this template that's "a shorthand for all things Welsh", we need something appropriate to the political/governmental context. You imply that the royal badge of Wales is inappropriate here because it displays a "disproportionate royal crown" and "the symbols of other countries" - but that's simply a statement of a republican/nationalist POV. While everyone is entitled to their own political opinion, I'm afraid that I can't accept that as a legitimate argument for change. Pondle (talk) 14:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

My argument, Pondle, is not that the royal badge of Wales is inappropriate here because it displays a "disproportionate royal crown" and "the symbols of other countries", it is inappropriate here and it displays a "disproportionate royal crown" and "the symbols of other countries". It is inappropriate because it specifically relates to Assembly Measures & LCOs. They are only a small part of Welsh politics, as I explained above. Welsh politics encompasses many more areas than LCOs, that much is obvious if only because the article Talk page where this discussion was raised - Welsh Nationalism - is one where the 'royal' badge is completely inappropriate. Even English colonialists and monarchists must see how inappropriate that is. The one symbol that holds all the elements of Welsh politics together is the Red Dragon. Various Welsh political agencies have taken the dragon and drawn their own logos from it. It is thoroughly appropriate to use the Red Dragon as the symbol depicting Welsh politics at the top of the template. Daicaregos (talk) 15:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Although you're right about the practical use of the royal badge being fairly limited at the moment, it isn't just about Assembly Measures. The College of Arms describes the emblem as the "Badge of the Welsh Assembly".[9] You could argue that a government emblem doesn't "represent all the elements of politics" in any country. I'm sure that, all over the world, separatists, anarchists, republicans in monarchies and monarchists in republics all feel aggrevied at the use of government emblems to "represent" their national politics. However, the usual practice in this encyclopedia is a to use a coat of arms or other official emblem of government in a politics template. Since we're not really making any progress here, would a WP:RFC be the best way forward? Pondle (talk) 16:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I find the arguments against the English use weak to say the least. You could argue that the position of the UK overall makes the use of coats of arms problematic. It is especially problematic in an article on welsh independence. Your arguments would be more consistent if you were engaged in an attempt to remove the Flag of St George.--Snowded ^TALK 17:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

There are appropriate coats of arms for the UK and Scottish templates, and now we have the Badge of the Welsh Assembly as well. As for Template:Politics of England - I've never edited that article, in fact, I don't think I'd ever looked at it before this issue came up. I tend to be more focused on Welsh-interest articles. Pondle (talk) 21:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The Welsh Assembly Government do not seem to agree with the view of The College of Arms that the 'royal' badge is "the Badge of the Welsh Assembly ..." as they use it for LCOs and nothing else. There appears to have been some misunderstanding between the National Assembly for Wales (who commissioned the badge) and The College of Arms. The NAG say in The year in review (document 3) "When Assembly Measures are approved by Her Majesty in Council, they become subject to Crown Copyright, and need to bear a suitable emblem when published. Discussions therefore took place between the Assembly and the College of Arms to develop a royal emblem which would be distinctively Welsh in character and which would be appropriate for marking the unique character of Assembly Measures as Welsh legislation." So, as far as the NAG is concerned the 'royal' badge is specifically a royal emblem to be used for Assembly Measures. If the WAG considered the 'royal' badge as their emblem they would surely use it to represent them. They don't. They use the Red Dragon for everything except LCOs, as do many other Welsh political institutions. Further, the contention that 'the practical use of the royal badge being fairly limited at the moment', while correct, implies that it may increase at some time in the future. Wikipedia only reflects realities as they are and does not guess at future events. Daicaregos (talk) 12:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

LCOs and Assembly Measures are different things Dai. An LCO gives the National Assembly the authority pass a Measure. I recognise that the Assembly Government and National Assembly use different versions of the dragon as 'corporate' brands. However, as I've said before, the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government both use the saltire in their brands but the Scottish royal arms (which appears on Acts of the Scottish Parliament) is preferred in the Scottish politics template. I still maintain that the Badge of the Welsh Assembly / Royal Badge of Wales (whatever you want to call it) is the most appropriate image for the Welsh politics template. You're welcome to pursue any of the procedures at WP:DR if you wish to take this further. It might be helpful to have broader input. Pondle (talk) 12:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

What about a picture of the Senedd, then? That's surely pretty representative of Welsh politics? Deb (talk) 15:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion Deb, but the convention on politics templates is to use a coat of arms or other governmental emblem - I gave a few examples earlier in the discussion, you can see virtually the whole list at Politics of present-day states.Pondle (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad this has been brought up as I thought the image was highly inappropriate and even offensive when I first had the misfortune to clap eyes on it. Why should this patronising "royal badge", fobbed off on the Assembly and only used in a very limited area, thank God, be used to represent the politics of the whole of Wales, left, right and centre, republican and 'loyalist'? If we must use a 'governmental logo' - and that in itself seems an inappropriate principle across the board, but never mind - we should use the WAG logo. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:30, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

PS Otherwise I'd support Deb's suggestion. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

PPS Or the Draig Goch, as Dai suggests. Anything other than this. Do I have strong feeling on this? Yes, and I'm not the only one. This choice is biased, highly POV, and divisive. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand (but disagree with) the argument that the badge is inappropriate because it doesn't have widespread visibility. However, I reject the claim that the badge is inappropriate because it is allegedly "patronising", "biased" or "divisive". I'm not expressing a personal opinion on the merits or otherwise of the badge as a symbol in its own right (although it's interesting that Dafydd Elis-Thomas seems to be less antagonistic towards the badge than you do, Enaidmawr[10]). I'm simply saying that politics is an inherently divisive process; almost any government emblem or national symbol in the world could be contested by someone. What's important in this context is that the badge has official status. So what if it depicts symbols of the monarchy or the union? Like it or not, these are factors in the contemporary politics and government of Wales. Our own personal political views should have no bearing in this discussion. Pondle (talk) 16:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Todate it appears the only argument for the "badge" is precedent on other political templates. However the practice is not universal, and is broken on England and also on Northern Ireland, one has a flag the other a map. In respect of the various countries of the United Kingdom it is thus more than legitimate to switch to either the English or Northern Ireland norm, or something like Deb's suggestion. My preference is for the Draig Goch, but a map or the Senedd are fine, just please can we get rid of this recent and meaningless badge. --Snowded ^TALK 23:37, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I recently changed the English politics template image to the Tudor Rose to bring it into line with convention. It's actually quite difficult to find an exclusively English emblem in current 'official use' by public agencies. As I've said before, there is no English government, hence no English 'governmental' emblem. I figure that as the rose features on the currency and as the logo of 'Enjoy England' (successor to the Tourist Board), it should do.[11] As for Northern Ireland, it is probably the most divided society in western Europe and doesn't even have its own flag. I can see a pragmatic justification for NI breaking the mould but I can't understand why Wales should when the Assembly has a perfectly usable badge. Pondle (talk) 16:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

We couldn't use the WAG or NAW logo for copyright reasons. I would support using a picture of the Senedd though, if the Welsh flag can't gain consensus. Daicaregos (talk) 08:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Although I've argued strongly for the new badge, I recognise that many editors are unhappy with it and I realise there's a need for constructive suggestions (but please, not a photo or a flag - something more in keeping with convention)! So I've got a proposal. Why don't we use the old badge?[12] You might think that this is dated, but I see that it's actually still in use on Welsh Statutory Instruments[13] and as the logo of the Wales Office.[14] Before the new brand was introduced, it was the Assembly's official logo[15]) and it was also used by the former Welsh Office.[16] So it has the merit of being in widespread use, past and current. Pondle (talk) 16:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It's still a "royal badge" and does not represent Wales. The use of either item would still be a POV statement about Wales' "place" rather than a graphic symbol of the politics of Wales. I have a suggestion. How about an outline map of Wales filled with the national flag with a ballot box or other voting symbol superimposed in the lower right of the image? Would that be acceptable (we'll need somebody to create the image, obviously)? Enaidmawr (talk) 17:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not a POV statement, it's an official emblem widely used by the key institutions of Welsh government. Wales is part of the UK, and that's an objective fact. Using the emblem does not imply either endorsement or criticism of that objective fact. A map with a ballot box just sounds unnecessarily contrived.Pondle (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

This is supposed to represent the politics of Wales, not its governance. And yes, it is definitely a POV statement. How about replacing it with the symbol of Plaid Cymru or Cymdeithas yr Iaith? Obviously I'm not being serious, but the reaction from some quarters would be understandable and might give you some intimation as to why using these English/British royal symbols - regardless of the degree of their 'official' use - to represent the diversity of Welsh politics, historical and contemporary, is equally unacceptable. And why is a map with a ballot box "contrived"? At least it graphically represents the topic and its location in a neutral manner. Enaidmawr (talk) 21:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Using an old badge is hardly a way forward. Given that a template is designed to provide something in common then we have two choices - an outline map of Wales (per Northern Ireland) or a dragon either on its own, or as a part of the flag (per England, Isle of Man). My preference is for a dragon on its own, but an outline map is OK. --Snowded ^TALK 21:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

In response to Enaidmawr, the template is supposed to represent both the politics and government of Wales. Like it or not, both are now framed by the context of devolution within the British constitutional monarchy. The convention on the overwhelming majority of other politics templates is to use some form of 'official' government or national emblem. I continue to see no reason why Wales should be a 'special case', seemingly because some editors object to the political status quo. However, in the interests of consensus I would accept a dragon on its own i.e. minus the white and green fields of the national flag.Pondle (talk) 21:55, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

⬅I think that is a sensible compromise. Its worth noting that the objection is more complex than a nationalist agenda. This originally came up in the context if an article about independence where it was clearly appropriate. In other examples such as Catalonia the Coat of Arms is a symbol of Catalonian Identity so contradictions in use do not apply. The Dragon represents a universally understood symbol of Wales that cannot be attributed to a nationalist or unionist perspective per se. Its use is then consistent - it was also the case in the template until fairly recently as well. It would make sense of Isle of Man to be the three legs not the flag on the same grounds. England is more problematic (sic), in that it is clearly a country, but its symbols have become those of the UK overall so we are left with flag. --Snowded ^TALK 22:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I replaced the badge with an image of the Red Dragon on the Template (so that editors could have a look to see if it was what they had in mind - see history) and then self-reverted to the badge. Please indicate if you would be happy with this, or if you have any suggested changes. Thanks, Daicaregos (talk) 07:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am happy with your dragon image as the compromise solution Dai. Pondle (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Y Ddraig Goch is fine by me as well. Enaidmawr (talk) 17:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

If it's OK by you guys too - Deb, Jza84 and Snowded - I'll make the change. Daicaregos (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thank you all. Daicaregos (talk) 18:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You've replaced an image that represented the 'Government and Politics of Wales' with that of an image that represents Wales generally. I don't understand that after such a long-winded discussion that you've agreed to what I see to be an ambiguous representation. If you can't agree that the actual coat of arms as appropriated by the College of Arms isn't an appropriate symbol to represent the topic then surely it's better that you use nothing at all. Ryanofwales (talk) 23:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

I propose the Royal Arms for Wales is used as the template image, as:

1. It is the image that appears on Welsh legislation 2. Is the approved image for Wales by the Queen and the College of Arms 3. It follows the form for other politics templates which use the Government Arms Majestica (talk) 18:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I assume that the proposed image is the one that the template was changed from only recently. Please read the discussion above to see argument for and against. Unless there is any new evidence, I see little point in going over the same ground again. Is there any new argument? Daicaregos (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

To me, it looks like the consensus has changes. Can you perhaps explain your response to my specific points? Majestica (talk) 18:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't understand what is meant by "it looks like the consensus has changes." Nevertheless, each of these points were discussed only recently. Have you read the above discussion? It should give the answers you seek. Best, Daicaregos (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Majestica, as I mentioned on your talk page we discussed this one intensively in July and reached a stalemate, although since then both you and Ryanofwales have also posted opinions. I don't think that the existing group of interested editors would reach a different conclusion, but if you want to open a wider debate you should start something called a request for comment, following the instructions shown at the link. It's one of the procedures used on Wikipedia for getting outside input and resolving disputes.Pondle (talk) 20:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Local government in Wales

The drop-down box headed Local government and the hidden link Subdivisions of Wales both redirect to Local government in Wales. This should be repaired, and the hidden links would benefit from expansion. How about changing the heading to Subdivisions of Wales, with the drop-down box revealing Unitary authorities of Wales, Preserved counties of Wales and Historic counties of Wales. Perhaps also: List of cities in Wales, List of towns in Wales. Any other suggestions? Do you agree with the order? Daicaregos (talk) 17:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I've made amendments as above, per BRD. Daicaregos (talk) 14:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Image

As evidenced by the pattern elsewhere, the appropriate image here is whatever the appropriate arms or emblem is. This reflects the fact that these are templates relating to the politics and government of the respective territories. In Wales, all power flows from the Crown, so the appropriate symbol is the Royal Badge.

The template for Kosovo does not use the insignia of the new state because the article's scope is over the entire region and there is dispute (of the has-killed-innocent-civilians-within-living-memory kind) over part of the territory claimed by the new republic. The template for Northern Ireland does not use the Royal Arms for similar reasons. There is no similar dispute here in Wales.

The template for Singapore does not use the coat of arms because it was not considered appropriate in that specific case to use the coat of arms on a template that appears on the articles of opposition parties. This was due to a specific restriction on the use of the arms. No such restriction exists on the Royal Badge.

A number of other articles use a flag. This is exclusively where there is no free rendering of the relevant emblem available. We have a free file, it's File:Royal Badge of Wales.svg.

The template for England uses the Royal Arms for England. The template for Scotland uses the Royal Arms for Scotland. It's clear that some are uncomfortable with the idea, but that does not change the underlying fact that the dragon as shown here is not and was not ever representative of any of the primary organs of government. It has appeared, in stylized form and clearly not as depicted, as a brand for secondary organs, so it would be as inappropriate here as using the Congressional Seal on the template for the USA, or the logo of the National Assembly on the template for France. The only actual use of the dragon image that some want to see here in any official capacity is on road signs for tourist destinations recommended by Visit Wales (neither the DfT nor WAG E&T have got around to prescribing the new logo yet).

The objections raised above simply seem not to apply any more (the England template does not use the cross of St. George, and the Royal Badge is not an obscure image that has only found its way onto the cover of one or two documents). The government of Wales encompasses several different layers in several different bodies, so it makes sense to use the official symbol of the one unifying concept - the Crown. According to the College of Arms, this is the Royal Badge. I can't see anything in any of the above discussion which still makes a compelling case for an exception. I also sincerely hope this will be the longest single statement on the page. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 13:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree and made similar points in the previous discussion. However, the strength of feeling against (particularly amongst editors with a nationalist or republican view) led me to agree - reluctantly - to a compromise. If this argument erupts again I think we should go to WP:RFC and get some views from beyond the Welsh Wikipedia bubble.--Pondle (talk) 16:20, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The Royal Badge is a recent creation and is not in extensive use. In contrast the Red Dragon is the universal symbol of Wales. The Royal Arms of of England and Scotland have histories running over several hundred years - also note "arms" not "badge", it is not a representation of the power of the crown. Also for the record the flag of Wales includes the dragon, but its not the flag. Further, the Welsh Assembly Government web page uses the dragon, not the badge, see here as does this. Neither feature the badge, it is simply not in any significant use --Snowded ^TALK 19:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

According to anything I've read, it is the official symbol representing the authority of the Crown in Wales. The College of Arms would appear to think so, and they are a reliable authority on the matter. That the Assembly chooses to use a stylized dragon as their brand is neither here nor there. To say it's a "recent creation and not in extensive use" is a bit like saying "Actually, no, we're not going to include this country's new flag because it's not widely used yet". This is the appropriate symbol, and there's no real reason why we should use anything else. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 00:30, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

It simply is not a common image in Wales and it isn't used by the Welsh Assembly other than on a few documents. Given that the political institutions in Wales use the dragon and this is a template about politics it is far more appropriate than an obscure, recently created and uncommon badge. Despite your dismissive edit summary when you edited the main article in defiance of WP:BRD you have not responded to the issues raised. You are simply replying on something you have read in the College of Arms with little knowledge of the actual practice of politics in the country concerned. --Snowded ^TALK 01:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not totally happy with the dragon either, because - as I explained in the previous discussion - it's a generic national image. Yes, NAW and WAG both use a dragon brand but their versions are (copyright) stylized designs rather than the one represented here. In the last debate, I made the point that I see the situation as analogous to Scotland; the Saltire is used as the brand for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government, but the Royal Arms, which appear on Acts of the Scottish Parliament (just like the Royal Badge appear on Assembly Measures) is used the for the Politics of Scotland template. You may consider the image used on Assembly Measures to be 'obscure', but why is that a problem?--Pondle (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

The image in use needs to be relevant and provide a unifying theme across the articles. The stylized version would be better if a free for use version was available (I can always ask some of my WAG contacts on that if appropriate). The Royal Arms is not really analogous as it has been around for a long time and there is no equivalent national symbol to the dragon. Its not only used by the Assembly, but also by post of the political parties in some form at some time while the badge is not--Snowded ^TALK 16:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

"The Royal Arms is not really analogous as it has been around for a long time and there is no equivalent national symbol to the dragon." It doesn't matter how long it's been around. This is the official symbol for the government of Wales. Perhaps you'd revert to the old flag of Iraq? After all, that's only been around a couple of years. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 04:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

If it was the official symbol of the Government of Wales you would expect to see it on that Government's web site. Instead guess what, we find the Red Dragon. Try and deal with the evidence please. My point on time duration related to your comparison with the Saltire, it has nothing to do with flags of Iraq --Snowded ^TALK 04:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The Welsh Assembly Government is not the "Government of Wales". Please stop being facetious and obstructive. If you want to follow that line, I might also suggest that the official symbol of HM Revenue & Customs does not appear on its web site (that would be a composition of rose, thistle and daffodil with a crown on top). The Royal Badge was assigned in 2008. We happily use the flag of Iraq without the stars, and that was introduced in 2008, so whether a symbol is a recent introduction is clearly irrelevant. The Badge is the official coat-of-arms/emblem/insignia/whatever of Wales. Whatever might have been done in the past is irrelevant, this is currently the official symbol. It is not the only symbol, in much the same way as the cross of St. George or the Tudor rose can represent England, or the thistle or the saltire can represent Scotland. For the purpose of the "Politics of X" templates, however, it would appear that the official symbol is preferred. The official symbol in this case is the Royal Badge, and this is clearly beyond any serious dispute. The use of the symbol of WAG would be akin to using the seal of the United States Congress on {{Politics of the United States}} - it is but one part of the government. I suggest that the only real objection here is one of nationalist POV. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 05:24, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

You really need to read WP:AGF. There have been various badges of Wales with the one you favour being the latest. There is no absolute requirement to use such a symbol, the purpose of a template is to create a united theme. In Wales that is the dragon as evidenced by the Welsh Assembly and all political parties. To say that the Welsh Assembly Government has no status here simply does not make sense. Making accusations about the motivations of other editors, rather than responding to their arguments is poor behaviour. --Snowded ^TALK 07:49, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I have responded to your arguments. You've chosen to ignore this wholesale and enforce your preferred version, responding with facetious and empty arguments. The simple fact of the matter is that the Royal Badge is currently the official national emblem, and convention appears to be that we use the official national emblem unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise or we're lacking a suitable image for it. You've suggested why the Dragon could be used, but you've said nothing of substance as to why the Badge should not be used. This I find unhelpful, and your insistence on enforcing your preferred version rather than properly addressing the arguments here is obstructive. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 00:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually you have not responded to my arguments, you have just dismissed them often with pejorative language. The current version has been previously discussed and agreed, the onus is on you to win a consensus for it to be changed, not to edit war. --Snowded ^TALK 01:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The Royal Badge appears on Acts of the Assembly, and therefore, whether you like it or not, it is a symbol of Wales, and the Assembly Government.This template deals with the politics of Wales, therefore the badge is relevant. The above arguments are rather silly, such as the one saying "the badge isn't used by political parties, the dragon is". Do you see the Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom used in national party logos??? I don't think so. Fry1989 (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that the royal badge is a symbol of Wales. And, far more importantly, so does the National Assembly for Wales (who commissioned the badge). The National Assembly for Wales say here "When Assembly Measures are approved by Her Majesty in Council, they become subject to Crown Copyright, and need to bear a suitable emblem when published. Acts of Parliament bear the Royal Arms of the United Kingdom on which Wales is not, at present, separately represented. Acts of the Scottish Parliament, on the other hand, bear the distinctive Royal Arms of Scotland. Discussions therefore took place between the Assembly and the College of Arms to develop a royal emblem which would be distinctively Welsh in character and which would be appropriate for marking the unique character of Assembly Measures as Welsh legislation." So, as far as the National Assembly for Wales is concerned the 'royal' badge is specifically a royal emblem to be used for Assembly Measures. If the WAG considered the 'royal' badge as their emblem they would surely use it to represent them. They do not. They use the Red Dragon for everything (except Assembly Measures), as do many other Welsh political institutions. This is because the Red Dragon is a symbol of Wales. Daicaregos (talk) 20:14, 26 January 2011 (UTC)