Template talk:Southern Illyria Labeled Map

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The map is defined as depicting exclusively "southern Illyria" nevertheless a great part of it depicts surrounding non-Illyrian regions. Bato objects an alternative label "s. Illyria and environs" with the explanation that those regions are blank nevertheless labels such as Corfu are visible. Even Wilkes includes less than 50% of this area in his Illyria map.Alexikoua (talk) 22:41, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

The Labeled Map describes only southern Illyria, the little remaining part is left blank. The comment "environs" is completely WP:UNDUE. You are clearly not here for improvements, indeed the text of the description was disrupted [1]. – Βατο (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment::Corfu is located in a small corner that is barely visible and it's not labeled. Your edit makes the map more confusing because it adds an unclear implication about southern Illyria's "environs" because no region that is not discussed in relation to the Illyrians is linked by that map. Your edit has been removed twice, which strongly suggests that there is no consensus and I don't think that a small, unlabeled corner should become the source of edit-warring. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Even S. Kos' line of the southern Illyrian southern border (Ceraunians-Damastion) leaves 1/3 of this map out of this definition. Off course a s. Illyria stretching down to the lake of Ioannina as this map shows is the epitomy of POV and OR. This map is not centred on southern Illyria (though is centered on modern Albania&Kosovo in order to display the typical nationalist narrative of Illyrian-Albanian continuity) and its completely unhistorical as a title.Alexikoua (talk) 23:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I enlarged the text of the description of the map so that it covers the part you are questioning, even though that part was previously left blank hence excluded. All the best. – Βατο (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

What makes mount. Boion an Illyrian region? That's not even close to s. Illyria in all published maps. Not to mention that Meropus falls also out of this region per Wilkes' map.Alexikoua (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Boion was not an "Illyrian region", it was the mountainous border area between the ancient regions of Macedonia, Illyria and Epirus. Meropus was located north of the Aoos and Keraunia. – Βατο (talk) 23:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Boion was the mountainous border area between the ancient regions of Macedonia, Illyria and Epirus. Actually this published map [[2]] places the border area of southern Illyria further to the north in mount ScardusQuelqes. Needless to say that Meropus is also displayed as non-Illyrian region. Same situation in Wilkes map. You are overstretching Illyria's border you know that.Alexikoua (talk) 23:59, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

The map doesn't discuss or link the area of Molossia as part of southern Illyria. On the west, it had reached the chain of mountains (Petrinon, Libaniscus, Boion, Pindus and Tymphe) that stretches almost vertically north and south, and separates the land of Macedonia as a whole from Illyria and Epirus.Institute of Balkan Studies, Greece @Βατο: Meropus is also attested as Aeropus [3] that should be included too.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Boion, identified with Grammos by Wilkes in his Illyricum, was the northern part of the Pindus, an area which divided Illyria from Epirus and Macedonia. To the north-west of it the Dassareti inhabited. Meropus is identified with Trebeshine by Wilkes in his Illyricum, and it was located north of the Aoos and the Keraunia, hence in Illyria. – Βατο (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

is that a source dating from 1954? Off course you are kidding if you attempt to stretch the so-called Illyrian border with this claim. As I've said the border of southern Illyris (map and sources presented) are located on mount. ScardusQuelques, i.e much farther to the north compared to Boion.Alexikoua (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

If editors here all agree that Corfu, Thesprotia and Ioannina are indeed not parts of Illyria, then I am sure none will mind if we crop abit the southern edge of the map to remove as much as possible of these non-Illyrian areas, right? The cropped map helps reduce the likehoood for open misrepresentations. Especially when the approximate borders are missing. Here is a cropped map: [4] --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, here is a source dating from 2008: Eckstein, Arthur M. (2008). Rome Enters the Greek East From Anarchy to Hierarchy in the Hellenistic Mediterranean, 230–170 BC. Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4051-6072-8. p. 53: "Nor did Rome establish connections with the Dassareti, who had been under Ardiaean domination before 229 and who controlled the strategic high passes eastwards over the Pindus Range into Macedon". Now stop with WP:FORUM. @SilentResident, I agree, you are free to replace it. – Βατο (talk) 00:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh I can't, I am having some technical difficulties with Wikipedia on my PC; Image Uploading and Edit Preview are unavailable to me, among others. (Is the very same reason I am editing talk pages too much due to the lack of functional preview). I leave this url here in case one of you guys does that for me. Thanks --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Bato: Where is Boion? simple nowhere, neither Boion nor Grammos, not even Meropus. Either you provide a source stating that those mountains were located in Illyrian (border)regions or the map should be modified accordingly. I'm afraid that wp:FORUM applies to you.Alexikoua (talk) 01:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Wilkes included it in Illyricum. Since Boion is considered the northern part of the Pindus as per sources, it has due weight for this map. Cheers. – Βατο (talk) 01:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

You are obviously kidding here since the Pindus mountain range stretches further north into Albania. Saying that Voion is an Illyrian mountain region is purely wp:OR and it is NOT supported by Eckstein. You need to find a better citation and one saying that both Wilkes & S.Kos & Roisman-Worthington are obsolete.Alexikoua (talk) 01:12, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Stuberra should also be removed, since it was a town located either within Macedonia or Paeonia, not within southern Illyria. Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

As should Keraunia. Khirurg (talk) 05:28, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Keraunia is commonly accepted as the southern limit of Illyria. Stuberra was added in relation to the Penestae and the campaign Perseus undertake against them. There are many sources that considers Stuberra a city in Illyria, although it was actually a border area, and as such, it has due weigh for inclusion. Alexi, Boion is identified with Grammos and the area from which Haliacmon rises. The area north-west of it coincides with Kolonje and with the beginning of the region of the Dassareti, Castiglioni 2010, pp. 93–94: "Selcë appartenait géographiquement, au IIIe siècle av. J.-C., à la région illyrienne appelée Dassarétide, territoire comprenant les vallées de l’Osum et du Devoll et s’étendant vers l’est dans les plateaux de Kolonje et de Korçe, et dans la zone autour du lac de Pogradec. – Βατο (talk) 09:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

OR, OR and again new OR to provide excuses for your previous OR. Either you provide a source stating that location X was Illyrian (border)land or this goes far into POV territory. This time you took a passage that mentions the "plateaux de Kolonje" and bingo: Illyrians reached Voion. You are an experienced user and you know this is unacceptable. Moreover the label Keraunians is located much to south, it needs to be moved to NE. The label 'Dassareti' needs to be moved NW where it initially stayed (per S. Kos). It offers the wrong impression that the Himara coast was also an Illyrian (border)land. It appears that you are desperately trying to prove that S.Illyria=Albania in terms of geography.Alexikoua (talk) 10:28, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I provided sources, there is no OR. Btw, what is "Voion"? If you are equating Voio with Boion, you are WP:OFFTOPIC. Boion is equated by scholars with Grammos and the sources of the Haliacmon. The location of Keraunian mountains is not wrong. – Βατο (talk) 10:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Voion is the correct spelling of Boion. Actually you provided nothing more than OR in order to stretch the Illyrian lands south. OR at its greatest in order to promote FORUM style maps of Illyrians stretching in modern day southern Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 11:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

S.Kos offers an interesting explanation on those FRINDGE views inside Albania that tend to support the extreme view that Illyrians stretched all the way down to the southern Albanian border. Nationalism and OR in order to claim ethnic territory has been explained by this historian.Alexikoua (talk) 11:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

"Voion is the correct spelling of Boion" is WP:OR, Boion is attested since antiquity, and is identified with Grammos and the source of Haliacmon: Katičić 1976 (Ancient Languages) p. 100: In the west its boundaries were Mount Boion (now Grammos) in the Pindus massive; Carol G. Thomas 2010 ("The Physical Kingdom" in A Companion to Ancient Macedonia), p. 68: The Haliacmon rises in the high Boion Mountains, then covers 297 km in moving toward the sea traveling more or less westward from the high Pindus massif separating Pieria and Bottiaea. Boion is included in Wilkes' Barrington Atlas of Illyricum. The labeled map depicts southern Illyria limited to the north of Keraunia as per sources, not in "southern Albanian border". If the enlargement of the description text that now covers the southern part is not enough, you are free to replace the current blank map with that proposed by SilentResident, but stop WP:FORUM, please. – Βατο (talk) 12:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

What makes all this relevant with this map? You still need to provide a source stating that Boion is an Illyrian (border)region. OR at its greatest without providing the slightest source. So far you provided a source claiming that an Illyrian tribe occupied a region that stretched to Kolonje and this has been interpreted by you that this means... Boion. Claiming national territory in that way is disruptive.Alexikoua (talk) 12:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It is relevant for the geography of the Dassareti as per Eckstein and Castiglioni (see the quotes provided above). Since Boion is identified with Grammos and the northern part of the Pindus range, and Wilkes reports it in the Barrington Atlas of Illyricum, it has due weight for inclusion. Nobody is "Claiming national territory". Where do you see it? I enlarged furthermore the description text to cover a bigger part, but you are free to replace the blank map with that proposed by SR. – Βατο (talk) 12:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Both Eckstein and Castilglioni do not support your extreme position. By interpreting the "northern part of Pindus range" as "Boion" makes it even more OR for you. That's not a productive way to claim Illyrian lands and you know that as an experienced user. Simply OR. No wonder you ignore the published maps by Wilkes and Roisman-Worthington places the Illyrian bordeland in mountain ScardusQuelqes (which lies indeed in the plain of Korce -Kolonje)... not Boion which is nowhere stated.Alexikoua (talk) 12:56, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Since the latest additions are obviously problematic here are my suggestions:

1. Ceraunians should be placed NE in the center of the Ceraunian range (not on the coast),
2. Dassareti back NE and in agreement with S.Kos,
3. instead of M. Boion -> M. ScardusQuelqes (sourced as Illyrian border region per Roisman-Worthington, obviously that's also a mountain in northern Pindus and it's sourced as a border region),
4. removal of m.Meropus (it's not in the area per Roisman-Worthington), 4. background map should be trimmed in order to avoid large empty areas in the southern part. @SilentResident: thoughts?Alexikoua (talk) 13:05, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Bato: Northern Pindus is a mountain region that stretches from southern Albania down to Arta region. You understand how much POV this sounds. So far we known that mount ScardusQuelqes was the southernmost Illyrian (border)region and its sourced.Alexikoua (talk) 13:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3) Are you kidding now? Do you at least know where mount Scardus is located? You should inform about that before commenting and do not WP:FORUM with your WP:FRINGE opinions, they are not needed in Wikipedia. All the content is supported by reliable sources. Ceraunians are already placed in the correct position, Dassaretii are placed in agreement with Sasel Kos (2005). Mount Meropus was located to the north of Ceraunia and Aoos. Boion is included in Wilkes' Illyricum and is located in the south-eastern border of the Dassareti. If you want to replace the blank map with that proposed by SR, you are free to do it. – Βατο (talk) 13:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@SilentResident: Good job with the file. I'm waiting your input so we proceed with fixing the issues.Alexikoua (talk) 13:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Your correction of Scardus highlights a lack of sufficient knowledge on the subject. Cheers. – Βατο (talk) 13:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

In fact your weird insistence about Voion as an Illyrian (border)region without providing at least one source reveals a non-productive approach on the issue. Experienced editors always correct themselves in light of sourced material. Cheers.Alexikoua (talk) 13:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Another correction: it is not Mt. "Voion", but Mt. Boion, and is identified by scholars with Mt. Grammos, just to the south-east of Kolonje and the Dassareti. – Βατο (talk) 13:30, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

You can conduct your research but I'm afraid that Roisman-Worthington offer a precise view on the issue and you should accept this one. By interpreting Kolonje-Korce plain or northern Pindus as m. Boion is OR. We need to be precise in our representation.Alexikoua (talk) 13:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

There is not "interpretation", scholars indentify "Mt. Boion" with "Mt. Grammos", we can replace it with that name as the part of the Pindus range that was directly in contact with the the Dassareti, but Boion is reported by Wilkes in is Illyricum, hence it can stay with that name. – Βατο (talk) 13:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It appears you stubbornly avoid to say why you don't like Roisman-Worthington Illyrian southern border. For n-th time mount Boion is your personal OR&POV view and -no wonder- there is no source that mentions that.Alexikoua (talk) 14:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

There is the source Maleschreiber reported above, and also Wilkes who includes it in his Illyricum. Not to mention again Eckstein and Castiglioni. As already stated we can replace it with Grammos, the part of the Pindus range that was directly in contact with Dassareti. But the two oronyms are equated in bibliography. – Βατο (talk) 14:23, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Off course you are kidding again: 1. a fragmentary quote from 1955 that describes the territory of the Paeonians and... proves nothing , 2. Wilkes list of Illyricum includes vast areas of Macedonia and Epirus. Is Olympus (also listed) part of Illyricum too? Perhaps yes... according to your rationale to include B/Voion in this region. Stop supporting this kind of disruptive ORAlexikoua (talk) 14:31, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

To the north-west of it the Illyrian region of Dassareti began, it is not WP:OR, I provided sources for that. You still continue calling it "Voion", an original research term offtopic for this subject. – Βατο (talk) 14:36, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Demetrios1993: I removed Stuberra as it is discussed more in relation to Macedon. – Βατο (talk) 14:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Bato: No you did not provided a single source about Dassareti and V/Boion (its the alternative spelling in Greek). You simply interpreted Kolonje, Korce or northern Pindus as... Boion. That's OR and needs to stop. Stick to Roisman-Worthington southern Illyrian border if you need something precise on the issue.Alexikoua (talk) 14:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

• Cabanes, Pierre, ed. (1987). L'Illyrie méridionale et l'Epire dans l'Antiquité. p. 179. ISBN 2866390113.:Ces Boiôtoi seraient originaires d ' Épire , plus précisément , pour certains , de la région du mont Boion , aux confins de l ' Illyrie , au nord de la chaîne du Pinde. Mais cette origine est controversée. Side comment: There were no borders in antiquity. Transboundary regions are not borders and a mountain range was basically a geographical feature which - in very broad terms - delimitated the influence of local rulers or village communities which interacted with each other within the social ecosystem of the mountainous microregion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Corvisier, Jean-Nicolas (1991). Aux origines du miracle grec: Peuplement et population en Grèce du Nord. Presses universitaires de France. ISBN 2130437125.: (..) mont Boion situe dans la chaine du Pinde entre Illyrie et Epire. I agree with removing Stubera/Čepigovo - it's rather far from the southern transboundary area between Illyria and Paeonia. Now that the Boion matter has been addressed, I consider the discussion/dispute over.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It's weird that Maleschreiber & Bato declared quite recently something about wp:OUTDATED for sources published in 80s and early 90s: [[5]][[6]] the 1980s information should have its due wight, 1980s considerations should not be generalized. Also per this All the papers published in 1990-1994 are mostly republications in anthologies. [[7]]. In the same fashion we can restore the previously removed information based on 80s and early 90s sources in Dimale amd Bylliones. Nevertheless we need to stick to modern sources, the map in Roisman-Worthington and the depiction of the border ofsouthern Illyris is a good way to rely on recent scholarship.Alexikoua (talk) 15:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Apart from being outdated (based on the rationale provided in the above difs) both works Cabanes and Corvisier don't describe the situation in 3rd-2nd century B.C. but they offer a more generic approach in terms of antiquity. As such inclusion of Boion still falls in OR territory.Alexikoua (talk) 15:51, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Maleschreiber for those sources. Alexikoua, you should understand that a statement in a source - not a source itself - becomes outdated in light of more recent sources and the suggestions they put forward. A source is not outdated because Alexikoua decides that. Borders are not depicted on the map, which is a geographical one. There are no other questions to discuss. – Βατο (talk) 15:57, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Indeed Stuberra was a town of either Pelagonia (Macedonia) or Deuriopus (Paeonia), not Penestia (Illyria), and thus at the very borders of the two former, not the latter. Even if it was at the border with Illyria as well, this wouldn't justify its inclusion in the map which pertains to southern Illyria's regions/towns/tribes, not neighboring ones. Last, the description of Perseus who passed through a number of non-Illyrian local towns (including Pluinna and Bryanium) is attributed to Titus Livius, whom he doesn't associate the town with Penestae. The only town associated with Penestae in Titus Livius is Uscana (located further north-west).

Now in terms of Boion, you wrote that To the north-west of it the Illyrian region of Dassareti began. Haven't checked the source, but that quote is explicit in describing the Illyrian zone beginning north of the Pindus mountain range, which pretty much ends at the plain of Korçë. The plain of Korçë is seen as the southernmost locality of the southernmost (in terms of this area) Illyrian tribe Dassaretii. You can see here a map of Pindus as a reference (also differentiates between Grammos and Boion). The actual borders of Grammos/Boion with Illyria were at the plain of Korçë. Cabanes' quote shared above also treats Boion as an Epirote locality and the border of Illyria beginning north of Pindus. All sources essentially compliment each other placing the border of Illyria at the plain of Korce which is where Grammos/Boion ends, not at the summit of Grammos/Boion. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:03, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It begins in the plain of Kolonje beyond Gramos. – Βατο (talk) 16:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Demetrios1993: I don't think that a map could ever depict whether the summit of a mountain or whether its southern or northern slopes belonged in any macroregion and I don't think that we'll ever find evidence which will give us an answer which delimitates geographical features in antiquity in such high resolution. There were no hard borders in antiquity and mountain ranges are depicted as transboundary regions. A question about the land rights over an uninhabitable mountain summit wouldn't have a functional meaning. Before the introduction of New World crops even the high planes of mountain ranges in the Balkans were uninhabitable. The potato is the unsung hero which allowed the development of mountain communities. @Alexikoua: WP:OUTDATED refers to specific theories which replace older theories because new research has emerged. There are no new or old theories in our discussion and there isn't a dispute about Boion in particular. Roisman also doesn't specifically describe the situation in 3rd-2nd century BCE and it's a map which doesn't refer to this specific location - it's not a source which disputes the location of Boion. If a few authors put forward a theory which should be compared and contrasted with other theories, we could have a discussion about WP:DUE but bibliography which discusses this location places it as a border landmark between Illyria and Epirus. A continuation of a discussion which in terms of bibliography comparison has concluded is not something which I want to be involved in (WP:FORUM). Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Grammos/Boion is not a single mountain with a single peak, but a mountain range which begins at the plain of Korçë, which is also where the southernmost locality of Dassaretii begins. It also borders with the Kolonjë district as you mentioned, at the northwest. My point is that Grammos/Boion bordering with Illyria doesn't make it part of it, and Cabanes' quote which actually associates Grammos/Boion with an actual tribe treats it as an Epirote locality bordering Illyria to the north of it. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

In Cabanes (1987) aux confins de l ' Illyrie , au nord de la chaîne du Pinde (on the borders of Illyria, north of the Pindus chain) and in Corvesier (1991) entre Illyrie et Epire (between Illyria and Epirus). The map links to Grammos. I don't think that there is problem with bibliography here and there's nothing more that can reasonably change. The discussion can't be about very small details which can't have a functional meaning in the map. --Maleschreiber (talk) 16:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Demetrios, Wilkes in his Illyricum reports for Boion the location of Grammos and Smolika. There is a more precise location for Boion from Carol G. Thomas 2010 ("The Physical Kingdom" in A Companion to Ancient Macedonia), p. 68: The Haliacmon rises in the high Boion Mountains, then covers 297 km in moving toward the sea traveling more or less westward from the high Pindus massif separating Pieria and Bottiaea. The current location is in agreement with sources. – Βατο (talk) 16:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Khirurg, your argument to support that removal is not good, Boion is north of the Aoos. Keraunia is considered a southern limit as per a great number of sources. – Βατο (talk) 16:56, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Boion is east, not north of the Aous. The vast majority of sources (e.g. Wilkes, Hammond) consider the Aous the border, not Keraunia. Khirurg (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Khirurg: why did you remove Boion? Bibliography discusses it as aux confins de l ' Illyrie , au nord de la chaîne du Pinde (on the borders of Illyria, north of the Pindus chain) and in Corvesier (1991) entre Illyrie et Epire (between Illyria and Epirus). Dausse (2015): La cartographie récente de Lauriane Martinez-Sève41 fait apparaître une vaste zone entre Illyrie, Épire et Macédoine, constituée du nord au sud de l'Atintanie, de la Paravée et de la Tymphée. (..) De celle-ci dépend la frontière entre Illyriens et Épirotes. Elle s'applique en revanche moins bien au fleuve Aoos pour définir une frontière entre Épire et Illyrie. Pour les zones de montagnes, nous pouvons citer les monts Acrocérauniens qui pourraient marquer le passage entre la partie chaone de l'Épire et l'Illyrie. Mais la plupart du temps, la montagne est le lieu de vie de nombreuses populations de la Grèce du Nord. À ce titre, elle constitue plus un lieu de rencontre qu'une barrière. (Illyrians#Notes). Why should the Ceraunian Mountains which are reasonably considered as the border/transboundary region between southern Illyria and Chaonia be excluded? --Maleschreiber (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

WP:CHERRY. The vast majority of established sources (Wilkes, Hammond), consider the Aous, not the Keraunian mountains, to be the boundary, and you know this. I also just wrote that above, so your comment falls within WP:IDHT. You can't cherry pick whichever sources you prefer to push a maximalist POV. And the source provided above is only tentative abour the Acroceraunian mountaints ({tq|qui pourraient marquer}}, "which could mark"). Do not misrepresent sources, or admin intervention will be sought. Khirurg (talk) 17:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Boion is also north of Aoos. Keraunia is considered as a geographic boundary, see Filos 2017, pp. 216–217: one may say with some degree of certainty that from the 4th c. BC onwards the geographic boundaries of Epirus were by and large set as follows: the so-called Keraunia or Akroker-aunia mountain range to the north (modern-day S. Albania), the Ambracian Gulf to the south, the Pindus (Pindos) mountain range to the east, and the Ionian Sea to the west (Strabo 7.7.5; cf. Hammond 1967, 3–45; Hammond in CAH III.1 (1982), 619–624; Hammond 2012; Cabanes 1988b, 90–99; Cabanes 1989; Cabanes 2011; Cabanes et al. 1995–2016, vol. III (2016), 85 ff.; Funke et al. 2004, 338–339).5. You are clearly in WP:IDONTLIKEIT. – Βατο (talk) 17:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

But Dassaretii didn't occupy Grammos/Boion, that's what i am trying to explain. They were bordering it, whereas Grammos/Boion is described as an Epirote locality. In such a case the appropriate thing would be to place the Dassaretii name at the border with Grammos/Boion on the map, not describe Grammos/Boion as part of southern Illyria. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:13, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

(ec) Boion is more east than north. The lower course and mouth of the Aous are north of Boion. Yes, some sources consider the Keraunian mountains to be the boundary. But many others consider the Aous, and you both know that. You can't just cherry pick the ones you want to push a maxmimalist POV. Besides, the map makes it look like Keraunia is part of Illyria, whereas at best it is on the border (let me remind you Keraunia is a Greek name, not Illyrian). Khirurg (talk) 17:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Khirurg, see Stocker 2009, p. 294 As Zeus Chaonius, he was also associated with Acroceraunian mountains, which formed the boundary between Epirus and Illyria. Demetrios, if Boinon is considered a geographic boundary, there is no reason to exclude it. – Βατο (talk) 17:18, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I know. But by including the Keraunian mountains in the map, you make it seem like they are part of Illyria, not the border of Illyria. Do you see my point now? Khirurg (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Βατο, it is an Epirote locality that happens to border southern Illyria, therefore again, the appropriate solution in this would be to have the name of the Dassaretii reach that border and not treat Grammos/Boion as part of southern Illyria. Dassaretti didn't occupy that mountain range. Their southernmost location was at the plains situated north of the range. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I think that we should establish our editing on what bibliography discusses. Boion is used as a general transboundary landmark on the map. It shouldn't be read as a border or as a point which marked a territorial claim.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Also numerous sources do not consider the Amantes Illyrians. They cannot be shown as such, in the same color and font asthe other, undisputed tribes on the map. Khirurg (talk) 18:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Template talk:Southern Illyria Labeled Map it's a geographical map. It doesn't discuss ethnicity, culture, language etc.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Highly disingenous. The name automatically implies everything in it is "Illyrian", and shows "Illyrians" all in the same font and color. Anyone seeing that map will be led to believe that the tribes listed therein are Illyrian. Nope. Khirurg (talk) 18:12, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

No, anyone seeing that map is not led to believe they are Illyrian. As I satated here [8] [9], they would appear in the same way in a geographical map that depicts Epirus. – Βατο (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for my slow responses. My take is that we do like how it is done in Wikipedia. There are 3 ways: 1) areas bordering a territory (lets say the territory in question is Illyria) which are not part of that territory, are excluded from the map when there are no border markings for that territory, 2) areas bordering a territory which are not part of that territory, are included when there are border markings on the map defining the territory. 3) areas bordering a territory (lets say Illyria) which are not part of that territory, have their names on the map colored differently than the areas bordering that territory Locations for which there is no scholarly consensus that they are part of Illyria, are colored differently as well, preferably with a middle color between the Illyrian and non-Illyrian colors. These solutions help avoid misrepresenting locations bordering something as being part when it is not, at least not unanimously. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

(ec) Ok then, we will create similar map "Epirus and environs", and include everything up to the mouth of the Aous, including the Amantes. Consider it done. Khirurg (talk) 18:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Khirurg, if you upload an unmarked map of Epirus, we can create "Template:Ancient Epirus Labeled Map", including the transbundary area of the Amantes, Amantia and Orikos as in this map. – Βατο (talk) 18:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

All right, sounds good. Khirurg (talk) 18:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Khirurg pardon me but Bato stubbornly rejects the label "s. Illyria and environs" in favor to the more pure and simple "s. Illyria". So a similar map about Epirus should be titled accordingly (without environs in it). By the way the map from Cabanes 1997 (Epirus and the Greek polis world) looks fine for wikipedia. Regions such as Byllis and Dassaretis are also part of this map. Suppose they are transitional areas.Alexikoua (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Alexikoua, I proposed the title "Template:Ancient Epirus Labeled Map", your first statement is inappropriate. About Bylliones and Dassareti, they are located beyond the Aoos, Keraunia and Pindus, and are not considered part of the geographical region of Epirus. Also, the tribes and cities should be added in the context of a specified period, the one that is more clear to estabish their location. – Βατο (talk) 19:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I will draw a map based on Cabanes 1997: Epirus in the Hellenistic times. As I see both Byllis and Dessaretis are mentioned as a geographic regions.Alexikoua (talk) 20:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Numerous sources consider them Dassaretae Epirotes, so of course they should be included. Apollonia should be included as it was located at the mouth of the Aous, which is generally consider to be the dividing line between Epirus and Illyria. Khirurg (talk) 20:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Alexikoua, the map should depict the most commonly accepted views, Bylliones and Dassareti are not considered a part of the geographical region of Epirus. Do not WP:CHERRYPICK a single source to create a WP:POV map as you did with this: commons:File:Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_tribes.png. You can upload a blank map of Epirus and we can create and edit the "Template:Ancient Epirus Labeled Map" reaching a consensus for its inclusion into articles. Khirurg, only Hammond considered the Dassareti an Epirote tribe, it is completely abandoned in current scholarship. Apollonia is located in Illyria, north of the Aoos and north-west of the Bylliones. It was not a transbundary area. – Βατο (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

And numerous source consider the Aous and not the Keraunian mountains to be the boundary, so you can't cherry pick only those sources that consider the Keraunian mountains to be the boundary. See how that works? Apollonia was at the mouth of the Aous, which is right at the boundary. If you include Keraunian mountains here, we include Apollinia there. Khirurg (talk) 20:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Khirurg: The area north of Aoos was a transitional areas. Dassaretae were mainly presented as a Chaonian sub-tribe. I believe that Cabanes map 1997 is very informative. It's almost ready to go.Alexikoua (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, some of the participants in this discussion have repeatedly praised Cabanes as the top source in the field. Now all of a sudden it's not good enough. Too bad. Khirurg (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Khirurg, if we include Keraunian mountains here, we include the mouth of the Aoos in the map of Epirus. The transbundary region is that of the Amantes, between Aoos and Keraunia. Apollonia is like Antigonea out of the transbundary region of the Amantes. Alexikoua, you have to reach a consensus for your maps before their inclusion. If they do not depict what the majority of scholars support, they can't be added as per WP:UNDUE. – Βατο (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Majority of scholars? Does the majority of scholars consider Keraunia and Boion in Illyria? How do you establish what the "majority" supports anyway? Who decides what is the "majority". Or are you suggesting Cabanes is WP:FRINGE? Khirurg (talk) 21:22, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Filos considers many scholars for this statement: Filos 2017, pp. 216–217: one may say with some degree of certainty that from the 4th c. BC onwards the geographic boundaries of Epirus were by and large set as follows: the so-called Keraunia or Akroker-aunia mountain range to the north (modern-day S. Albania), the Ambracian Gulf to the south, the Pindus (Pindos) mountain range to the east, and the Ionian Sea to the west (Strabo 7.7.5; cf. Hammond 1967, 3–45; Hammond in CAH III.1 (1982), 619–624; Hammond 2012; Cabanes 1988b, 90–99; Cabanes 1989; Cabanes 2011; Cabanes et al. 1995–2016, vol. III (2016), 85 ff.; Funke et al. 2004, 338–339).5 – Βατο (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

There is no need to worry, I always reproduce published maps by known scholars. What's WP:UNDUE is claiming that Boio is an Illyrian border region while all published maps offer an extremely different view about southern Illyria.Alexikoua (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

S. Kos places the Illyrian/Epirote border to the line from Ceraunian to Damastion (that's north of Ohrid). Roisman-Worthington (2011) draws a line Vlore-Quelqes-Pogradec, Hatzopoulos from Aoos mouth with the exception of a number of settlements (Amantia, Dimale, Byllis) and bilingual tribes (Bylliones etc.). And there is also mount Amyron where the Dexaroi/Dassaretae lived. I'm fine with this.Alexikoua (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Again with your WP:FRINGE claims: the location of Damastion has not yet been found. How can you trace a line form Ceraunaian to un unidentified site? See Filos, he considers many scholars for his statement. – Βατο (talk) 21:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Pardon me but you are very convenient when citing S. Kos and she is very clear when stating about "Damastion near Lichnidus in Dassaretis" well that's several hundreds of miles north compared to Grammos. Though you still ignore the border depicted by Roisman-Worthington (2011) ? is that also FRINGE? I'm afraid that the only WP:FRINGE here is not promoted by me.Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Borders are not depicted here. The line of the rough boundaries depicted by Roisman-Worthington (2011) reports "Mount Quelqes", if it coincides with Mali i Qelqëzës, it excludes the territory of the Dassareti, hence it cannot be considered for this geographical map. Btw, can you identify the coordinates of Mali i Qelqëzës, it seems not to coincide with the position provided by Roisman-Worthington (2011). – Βατο (talk) 22:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Off course its between Erseke-Korce (in straight line south of Pogradec as the map indicates). Moreover, it would be too much to declare that Roisman-Worthington (2011) are useless, you are just an anonymous user while their research is of great importance on the subject and its very detailed too.Alexikoua (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

We are not drawing borders on this geographic map. About a placement of a presumed "Mount Quelqes" in the map as a geographic area, if you know its ancient name we can include into the map it too. But we should firstly identifify it with the modern oronym, and if it is Mali i Qelqëzës, its location seems not to coincide with the one provided by Roisman-Worthington (2011). – Βατο (talk) 00:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

• The map in the publication edited by Roisman and Worthington doesn't depict 3rd-2nd century BCE or a period comparable to it. The Bryges were not in Illyria in the 3rd or 4th century BCE and many settlements of the region aren't depicted on this map because they didn't exist yet (Amantia, Byllis, Oricum). The discussion about a "Mount Quelqes" won't improve the article because the map discusses another period. Apollonia is exclusively discussed in all sources as located in Illyria because of the volume of excavated material, inscriptions, written sources of antiquity, historians of the Middle Ages and contemporary history and archaeology. This is a site which has been excavated by many expeditions. None have produced competing theories which should be compared and contrasted about its historical location because we know the history of every building in Apollonia. It's not a minor toponym or an unknown tribe like the Atintanes which have generated debate about their possible location largely because there are no excavated sites or written sources of antiquity which discuss them. Compare what is comparable in terms of bibliography - minor, semi-unknown toponyms and sites which have seen many multi-year archaeological expeditions aren't comparable.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:30, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Fact is that the so called Boion Illyrian boundary is completely unsourced. There is not need even to talk about such maximalist boundaries or interpreting Batos conclusion that "northern Pindus" or "Kolonje and Korce plain" can place this border area south to Boion. Bato could not even find an Illyrian population or settlement in this vicinity and as such he simply placed a mark there in order to claim a fictional Illyrian border. @Calthinus allow me to find your statement quite useful in this topic

[[10]], though I understand this disappoints specific co-editors that share an extreme pov. @Bato I can't do much if you personally dislike Roisman-Worthington (2011) map about the border of southern Illyris during the 3rd century BC but we are just anonymous editors: those historian shows that the southern borderland lies on mount Quelqes. Unfortunately Boion is excluded from this area.Alexikoua (talk) 09:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I did not intend my statement to be used to attack people, please respect that, thank you. --Calthinus (talk) 05:38, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Calthinus: I'm sorry for hear that but I don't really see such an intervention as an attack.Alexikoua (talk) 09:30, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Alexikoua I'm sorry if it looks like I'm accusing you of something. I'm not. I do also think, however, that it would be better not to view Βατο as someone with an extreme pov but rather a colleague who, let us both admit, has done a lot of good (and usually non-POV) work on pages covering topics in the antique era. The more good sources are brought forth, the better it is for all of us, as info from them ends up on the pages. Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 21:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Calthinus I'd never said that a specific editor here displays a fully disruptive pattern in his general contribution in this encyclopedia. Bato has provided some good piece of info provided that the topic does not touch his sensitive area of Illyrian-Albanian geographic continuity (placing for example the Illyrian-Albanian border on the same spot though with little success). Desparate declarations of accusing co-editors such as this one [[11]] are definitely not helpful.Alexikoua (talk) 10:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Maleschreiber, I did not notice that Roisman-Worthington's map also includes the Brygi and Encheleioi (I focused more on identifying the location of a presumed "Mount Quelqes", an oronym that actually does not exist in that form), that map certainly does not depict the situation of the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, hence it's WP:OFFTOPIC for this discussion. Alexi, your statement so called Boion Illyrian boundary is completely unsourced has been dismissed by Maleschreiber, who provided two sources for that. Eckstein and Castiglioni provide further information for an inclusion of the part of the Pindus range that was directly in contact with Dassareti, because it was relevant for the events involving Macedon and Illyria. If you can identify the ancient oronym of the mountain to the east of Korçe providing sources, we can include it too. – Βατο (talk) 10:28, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Pretending that one 80s source will do the job, although even this one states that Illyria does not clearly reach Boion can easily considered as wp:TROLLING and wp:FORUM. Eckstein and Castiglioni also do not support this extreme point amd they actually agree with Roisman-Worthington (2011) indeed he places the border between Korce-Erseke. The last work is dedicated to the Hellenistic era hence is not OFFTOPIC. Bato you need to be careful when evaluating top graded works such as this one.Alexikoua (talk) 12:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

S. Kos places the boundary even north in Damastium, which is certainly located north of Ohrid. Bato you don't believe that Damastion lies near to Boion right?Alexikoua (talk) 12:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

To sum up all published maps on the subject offer an extremely different picture. Here is Wilkes [[12]]. No wonder both Meropous and Boion are not part of this area.Alexikoua (talk) 12:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If a source describes a completely different period (including the Bryges), it is not relevant for this specific discussion, which concerns a map that depicts the period of the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC. Although irrelevant here, I noticed that the location number 32 in Roisman-Worthington's map indicates "Mount Quelqes", while it actually is the location of Mount Moravë (Mali i Moravës, to the east of Korçe). Hence there is an inaccuracy in that map, but as already stated, it is offtopic here. The location of Damastion has not yet been identified, do you understand that? Your WP:FORUM claim about "boundaries" north of Ohrid is WP:FRINGE, and if you are intersted in drawing boundaries, I am not. Cheers. – Βατο (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Stubborn claims that a mountain is located on the border of Illyria without the slightest citation equals WP:FORUM. As already stated: 1. S.Kos, 2. Roisman-Worthington's map about Hellenistic era s. Illyria (i.e. the era of 3rd-2nd cent. BC & Bryges were also mentioned as Hellenistic era tribe by S.Kos so this argument is also dismissed), 3. Wilkes's map also dismisses this extraordinary scenario. Such a claim consitutes wp:OR, wp:POV. It's also interesting that S. Kos states something about Albanian nationalism about a so-called Illyrian presence in the northern parts of Epirus. Selecting mount Boion which is located on the modern Greek-Albanian border serves exactly the view expressed by S.Kos (about Albanian nationalism, i.e. Illyrians seen as the defenders of ancient Albania etc. etc.) which is entirely rejected in modern scholarship.Alexikoua (talk) 13:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Sasel-Kos' statement should be added to wikipedia in the appropriate article (Origin of the Albanians?)WP:CHERRYpicking a source from the 1980s tosomehow "proves" that a certain mountain was "in Illyria" smacks very much of "flag-planting". Khirurg (talk) 19:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

M. Boion was located between Orestae and Pareueans in several maps. In fact it was W of Pareueans and E of Orestis as shown in this map [[13]][[14]][[15]] (the last two are published in the collective work of Sakellariou 1997; Hammond and the other Cabanes). It was on the border between Macedonia and Epirus, but not Illyria.Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Alexikoua for those maps, they provide a very clear picture about the geography of that area. All of them are in perfect agreement with this labeled map. They locate Parauaea in the south-west of Boion, more precisely between Boion and the upper-middle Aoos valley; Orestis is located in the east of Boion, in the upper valley of the Haliacmon, a river that rises in Boion. The area in the north-west of Boion was part of Illyria, Boion coincides exactly with the transbundary area between Macedonia, Epirus and Illyria: "région du mont Boion, aux confins de l'Illyrie, au nord de la chaîne du Pinde" (Cabanes 1987, p. 68); "mont Boion situe dans la chaine du Pinde entre Illyrie et Epire" (Corvisier 1991, p. 117); "région illyrienne appelée Dassarétide, territoire comprenant les vallées de l’Osum et du Devoll et s’étendant vers l’est dans les plateaux de Kolonje et de Korçe" (Castiglioni 2010, pp. 93–94); "Dassareti, who had been under Ardiaean domination before 229 and who controlled the strategic high passes eastwards over the Pindus Range into Macedon" (Eckstein 2008, p. 53). I saw also Wilkes' map, his approximate line passes along the north-western base of mount Boion, hence it is in agreement with all the other sources. – Βατο (talk) 22:56, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

All of those maps declare that the so called Illyrian border in the Boion summit is completely OR (you interpreted that Dassaretae are Illyrian while Wilkes, Hammond , Weber etc. claim something else). By the way Cabanes states that Illyria begins 'north of the mountain region of Boion' (i.e. Bio summit is not an Illyrian borderland). Do not misinterpret those sources again in such an obvious manner. Mount Quelqes (depicted on a published map contrary to Boio which is located between Parauaioi and Orestae, is found in Korce-Kolonje area.) I assume you need to correct yourself.Alexikoua (talk) 23:39, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

All of those maps declare that the so called Illyrian border in the Boion summit is completely OR I can't see that in those maps, I see they are in agreement with all the above mentioned sources. A presumed "Mount Quelqes" located east of Korçe seems not to exist, that information is highly uncertain, but as already stated, that map is not related to this discussion, which actually concerns the period 3rd-2nd centuries BC. – Βατο (talk) 00:14, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Βατο, Castiglioni (2010) makes no mention of Boion and confirms that Dassaretii were not present on mount Boion but on the plains in front of mount Boion, making those plains the southernmost localities of Illyrian presence. Eckstein (2008) makes no mention of mount Boion being inhabited by Illyrians either, while Cabanes' (1987) full quote (Ces Boiôtoi seraient originaires d ' Épire , plus précisément , pour certains , de la région du mont Boion , aux confins de l ' Illyrie , au nord de la chaîne du Pinde. Mais cette origine est controversée.) explicitly states that Boion was an Epirote locality and that the borders with Illyria were north of the Pindus range, and within that same context we also have Corvisier's (1991) full quote (Un autre peuple exterieur a l'Epire a l'epoque historique semble avoir eu avec elle des liens importants. Il s'agit des Beotiens. Roesch s'est recemment penche sur la question et considere qu'une partie au moins des Beotiens est originaire d'Epire. Il remarque que: l'origine de l'ethnique Boiotoi rapproche les Beotiens du mont Boion, situe dans la chaine du Pinde entre Illyrie et Epire. D'ailleurs, que l'origine ultime des Beotiens soit le mont Boion est un fait accepte par un certain nombre de savants.) writing about it four years later. These sources are clear on placing the southernmost border of Illyria on the plains of Korçë and Kolonjë that were located in front of the mountain range of Boion, not on top of Boion. Then there are also the other sources mentioned by Alexikoua which seem to contradict this. Demetrios1993 (talk) 00:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

The relevant maps provided by Alexikoua do not contradict it, because no tribe is located on that mountain, while the Orestae are placed to the east, and the Parauaioi to the south-west. I am reporting another source that relates it with the region of "Epirus/Illyria", Moustakis, Nikola (2006). Heiligtümer als politische Zentren: Untersuchungen zu den multidimensionalen Wirkungsgebieten von polisübergreifenden Heiligtümern im antiken Epirus. Quellen und Forschungen zur antiken Welt (in German). Vol. 48. Utz. p. 47. ISBN 3831605602. ISSN 2701-3626.: "Die aus den Orakeltäfelchen zu erschließende Verbindung zwischen Boiotien und der Region Epirus / Illyrien kann durch Mythen bestätigt werden , in denen die Herkunft der Boioter reflektiert wird : So wird in historischer Zeit der Berg Boion als ursprüngliche Heimat der Boioter angesehen ." [The connection between Boiotia and the Epirus / Illyria region, which can be deduced from the oracle tablets, can be confirmed by myths in which the origin of the Boiotians is reflected: in historical times, Mount Boion is considered to be the original home of the Boiotians.] A transbundary area like a mountain is shared by all the peoples dwelling around it. You should understand that you can't dismiss the statements by all those reliable sources with your personal suggestions, and that you have to provide a source that clearly dismisses scholars' consideration that Mount Boion was on the border area between Epirus, Macedonia and Illyria. Otherwise, the discussion becomes a WP:FORUM. All the best. – Βατο (talk) 01:57, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

you have to provide a source that clearly dismisses scholars' consideration that Mount Boion was on the border area between Epirus, Macedonia and Illyria Absolutely not. The burden of proof is on you to privde sources that claim Boion was in Illyria, not the other way around. So far, the sourcing you have provided for this is very weak. You can't include something on flimsy grounds, then demand that others provide sources to disprove that. This is a reversal of the burden of proof and is intellectually dishonest. And for the map of Epirus, you are demanding a majority of scholars in order for something to be included, yet here you are demanding that we accept something with very weak sourcing that is clearly not supported by a majority of scholars. I can't help but wonder that since "Boion" is on the modern border between Greece and Albania, that this dispute is related to modern Balkan nationalist politics, to "prove" that "Illyria" included all of modern Albania. Btw, it's "transboundary", not "transbundary". Khirurg (talk) 02:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

The "Epirus/Illyria region" of this quote is vague when compared to the other sources you shared, which do provide a more detailed context placing the border of Epirus and Illyria just north of the Pindus mountain range, in the plains of Korçë and Kolonjë. Now there are also other sources Alexikoua mentioned, like for example Wilkes who considers the Dexaroi/Dassaretae the most northerly Chaonian (Epirote) tribe while Enchelei the southernmost Illyrian (page 98) and even provides a map placing the border at the plain of Korçë excluding Kolonjë (Map 1). Also, since we are on Wilkes, he also considers Damastion (that was discussed above) to have been located north or northeast of Ohrid (page 128), essentially agreeing with S. Kos on its approximate location. The map should follow WP:WEIGHT guidelines and not take things out of context. Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:40, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Not having being involved in the discussion I see that there are sources which place Boion as a transboundary area between Illyria/Epirus/Macedonia, but I don't see authors which explicitly reject Boion specifically as a border area. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ahmet: It's a border area between Epirus-Macedonia but not an Illyrian border area in fact allpublished maps (Wilkes, Cabanes, Roisman-Worthington) clearly exclude Boion from Illyria, and no wonder it's described by as a mountain in Epirus or Macedonia. Also confirmed as non-Illyrian in current bibliography: "epeirotischen Boion-Gebirge" Kleine Schriften zum griechischen und römischen Altertum, Fritz Gschnitzer, Franz Steiner Verlag, 2001, Boion gebirge in Epirus, Wege zur Genese griechischer Identität: Die Bedeutung der früharchaischen Zeit. Christoph Ulf, Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG, 2015. It's all published in 21th century.Alexikoua (talk) 06:50, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

• Radoslav Katičić (1995), Illyricum Mythologicum: Tu vezu kao da potvrđuju i toponimi Boion (brdo u Iliriji) i Boiai (grad u Iliriji) - This connection seems to be confirmed by the toponyms Boion (mountain in Illyria) and Boiai (city in Illyria). Cabanes (1987), should probably put forward bibliography which discusses a) Boion b) doesn't place it in a transboundary area in relation to Illyria. I don't think that we can infer information via interpretation of existing maps and much older timelines. Side comment: There were no borders in antiquity in a way that a modern projection onto the distant past might consider them. The question of whether macroregions which were defined in antiquity in broad strokes ended at the summit of a mountain or at some part of the plain below the mountain is not meaningful in a functional way when we discuss geographical features. If the dispute isn't resolved, it can continue in some form of focused community discussion like DRN (Bato-Alexikoua). Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: Can you provide the full context? From the above quote it can be concluded that this was not about 3rd-2nd century B.C.: The very next sentence tells something about the Enchelae and as the title also indicates its dedicated entirely to mythology .... A Enhelejci se ne susreću samo na Jadranu , nego i u Beotiji , na obali jezera Kopaide And the Enheleans meet not only in the Adriatic, but also in Boeotia, on the shores of Lake Kopaida. Sure you can stretch Illyria down to Boetia if we mix history with mythology. By the way this work was first published in 1970 here [[16]].Alexikoua (talk) 19:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Maps of this type are useful to the reader to provide direct access to relevant articles on the subject. I understand that tribes, settlements, monuments everything connected to Illyria/Illyrians need to be presented and linked but this is not helpful for geophysical features especially when the did not play a central part in Illyrian myths/traditions. Would the addition of m. Boion provide any useful info for our understanding of Illyria? certainly not.Alexikoua (talk) 19:25, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

In terms of ancient geography I see that this was located in southern Orestis¨: Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon: Studies in the Archaeology and History of Macedon, 650 BC - 300 AD. Brill's Companions in Classical Studies. Robin J. Lane Fox. BRILL, 2011. ISBN 9004209239 [[17]]. In the time we are looking for.Alexikoua (talk) 20:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Those sources do not contradict the others, Alexi. A clear picture about the separation of Illyria, Epirus and Macedonia by mountains is provided by the Map 1 The Adriatic and Illyria published in Eckstein, Arthur M. (2008). Rome Enters the Greek East From Anarchy to Hierarchy in the Hellenistic Mediterranean, 230–170 BC. Blackwell Publishing. p. viii. ISBN 978-1-4051-6072-8. Your comments are not bringing improvements to this discussion. You have to provide a reliable source that clearly dismisses scholars' considerations which have been reported above. Cheers. – Βατο (talk) 12:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Actually the map you presented proves nothing about the borders of Illyria, on the contrary it rejects this extraordinary claim (Boion located between Pareuea and Orestis, which indeed is a historical fact). You have to provide solid arguments that Boion deserves to have a link in a map about Illyria (not just snippets of works from 1955 and 1970 without provinding full citation). Moreover, you need to provide a reliable source that clearly accepts scholars' considerations which have been reported above (no wonder 'all' maps dismiss this maximalist claim). Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 13:25, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Solid arguments are reliable sources already provided above. We are not discussing "borders of Illyria" here (this labeled map does not depict them), and Eckstein's Map 1 The Adriatic and Illyria is actually very relevant here. – Βατο (talk) 13:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Off course a mountain of solid clear maps and publications refutes this claim. Let me remind you that it was your initiative to place Illyrian borderlands as you declared. I'm sorry but you really understand that this map (Eckstein's Map 1 The Adriatic and Illyria) actually entirely rejects your claims:
1. Does not exclusively include Illyria (it's called Illyria... and the Adriatic, though you edit warred for a pure "Illyria" title here),
2. It includes vast regions of the Ionian see, southern Italy, Epirus down to Acheron, W. Macedonia/ Olympus/ W. Thessaly etc.
3. M. Boion is found between two non-Illyrian regions (between Parauea-Orestis, i.e. non-Illyrian tribes)
4. ...there is no label of Boion, which you desperately need to emphasize as Illyrian borderland in your map.
I feel it's time to give up your claim about Boion: evidence is solid clear against such a map titled Illyria (and not Illyria and environs as you reject).Alexikoua (talk) 17:35, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Those are again your original research comments that are not relevant here, I can't see sources that directly contrast with all the others provided above. In Eckstein's map the Adriatic is the sea, Illyria is the mainland. With this statement: "M. Boion is found between two non-Illyrian regions (between Parauea-Orestis, i.e. non-Illyrian tribes)" you are interpreting the source with original research, Map 1 The Adriatic and Illyria depicts the northern part of the Pindus mountain range, Parauaea is placed to the south-west of those mountains, Orestis is placed to the east, in perfect agreement with all the relevant sources presented until now in this talk-page, as is the fact that to the north-west of those mountains the Illyrian region began, and it is also stated clearly by the author of the book in page 53: "Nor did Rome establish connections with the Dassareti, who had been under Ardiaean domination before 229 and who controlled the strategic high passes eastwards over the Pindus Range into Macedon". Your statement: "there is no label of Boion, which you desperately need to emphasize as Illyrian borderland in your map." is weird, since you reported very unrelated maps in this discussion, while no source that directly comments on this issue has been provided. On the contrary, a large number of sources that give due weight to the inclusion of that mountain have been provided. I will not reply here anymore until I see sources that directly dismiss them. Best regards. – Βατο (talk) 18:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

A view and extremely abstract claims that Eckstein's map is supposed to depict Illyria and nothing more is a wp:POV claim (mount Olympus and the entire Epirus/w Macedonia being located in Illyra further weakens your point). The burden to provide a decent source is up to you. Nevertheless per wp:AGF I was able dismiss your maximalis claims by providing post-1990 maps and sources. Maps:
Wilkes (1992), Illyrian border north of Erseka
Roisman-Worthington (2011), Illyrian border northeast of Korce
and: S. Kos: Illyrian border on Ceraunian-Damastion/Lichnidos line ->most of Dassaretis excluded
Map of Hammond (1997)->Boion between two non-Illyrian tribes while the nearest Illyrian tribe is located c. 80-100kms north
map of Cabanes (1997), same as Hammond
Map of Eckstein (2008) (Boion located between non-Illyrian tribes),
Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon: Studies in the Archaeology and History of Macedon, 650 BC - 300 AD. Brill's Companions in Classical Studies. Robin J. Lane Fox. BRILL, 2011. ISBN 9004209239 [[18]] Boion mentioned as part of a non-Illyrian region, (south Orestis not even north Orestis to be near a transitional region),
similar here mentioned as Epirote mountains in 21th century publications: "epeirotischen Boion-Gebirge" Kleine Schriften zum griechischen und römischen Altertum, Fritz Gschnitzer, Franz Steiner Verlag, 2001,
Boion gebirge in Epirus, Wege zur Genese griechischer Identität: Die Bedeutung der früharchaischen Zeit. Christoph Ulf, Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG, 2015.
On the other hand you still need to provide one single source that claims that Boion was an Illyrian borderland in the 3rd-2nd century B.C. For future reference the mythical age of Cadmus and the Encheclaean colonization do not belong to this era. Also the claim that "northern Pindus" can be interpreted as "Boion" is wp:OR.Alexikoua (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Eckstein's map is of very low quality, and is not a specialized source on the topic. This is clear WP:CHERRY, scraping the bottom of the barrel to grasp at whatever source backs the desired POV. I also don't know if you noticed, but it doesn't show Boion anywhere. Against this we have a multitude of sources that do not include Boion as part of Illyria (Wilkes, Sasel Kos, Cabanes, Hammond, etc.). These are all the major sources on the subject, and none of them shows "Boion" as being in Illyria. Khirurg (talk) 20:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

By conducting research about the source of the Haliacmon everything points to the territory of Orestea/Orestis and more precise in south Orestis. In fact it was a core territory together with the upper valley of the river.Alexikoua (talk) 21:23, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Tsangon pass

I wonder what makes 'tsangon pass' related to 3rd-2nd century B.C Illyria. Thoughts?Alexikoua (talk) 18:41, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

It is the ancient attested name of the mountain pass (today Cangonj Pass), also considered important for the operations undertaken by Rome and Macedon during the Macedonian Wars. – Βατο (talk) 19:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Nice piece of info, but this does not address the issue. Let me be precise: what makes 'tsangon pass' part of 3rd-2nd century B.C Illyria?Alexikoua (talk) 19:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

See Papazoglu 1988 Les villes de Macédoine à l'époque romaine, p. 280. For the precise location, see the sources provided in Cangonj Pass#Bibliography. For a map reporting the location, see Wilkes 1992. There are many other sources to cite, but it is not necessary in this case. – Βατο (talk) 22:04, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Yet no answer and those sources do not prove that this was Illyria during this period. Sure Alexander passed through this pass and then he finally met the Illyrians... this proves nothing (its also 4rth cent. BC). Do I have to repeat the question?Alexikoua (talk) 23:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

You have not, you should just read the sources. – Βατο (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

The sources say nothing about what you claim. If you don't provide a decent citation this will be soon removed. Take your time.Alexikoua (talk) 23:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry but King, Weber and Winnifrith don't confirm your thoughts.Alexikoua (talk) 23:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Papazoglu, Fanula (1988). Les villes de Macédoine à l'époque romaine (in French). Greece: Ecole française d'Athènes. ISBN 9782869580145. p. 280: Tous les passages débouchant dans la plaine pélagonienne ont été mis en ligne de compte. Même ceux qui reliaient la Lyncestide à l'Illyrie méridionale, comme le défilé de Tsangon, au Sud du lac de la Petite Prespa, ou bien le col de Djavato, entre Héraclée et Lychnidos15. It is depicted also in Wilkes' map The Kingdom of the Illyrians. This is enough to end this discussion. Cheers. – Βατο (talk) 23:52, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

You mean this map [[19]] where the Tsangon is located next to the Chaonian tribe (as per Wilkes) Dassaretae. I really don't believe that's a strong argument for inclusion. It's actually a good reason to remove it.Alexikoua (talk) 00:06, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Your interpretation of sources with original research is not constructive, Wilkes also includes that area in the map Illyrian Lands, it can't be removed just because you don't like it. What about Papazoglu, why did you ignore that source? – Βατο (talk) 00:17, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Papazoglu says Tsangon connects southern Illyria to Lyncestis. That's not where you have placed it on the map; the location you placed it connects the plain of Korce to Orestis, not Lyncestis. Lyncestis was further north, west of Megali Prespa. Please correct it accordingly. Khirurg (talk) 01:47, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

@Bato: I can't understand why you use such an aggressive tone. You made the same error an in Wilke's map of Illyricum. There are also Molossi, Macedonia etc. in this map not to mention that Wilkes is clear about the Dassaretae being non-Illyrian (Chaonian-> Greek speakers as he declares). As such he places them out of Illyria. @Khirurg: Why I have the feeling that Papazoglou simply means that this pass connects two regions and nothing more. This does not necessary mean that it belongs to both regions, indeed as you pointed its not even near Lyncestis. In general a road or a pass that leads to Illyria does not mean that it (partly) belongs to Illyria.Alexikoua (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Do not interpret sources with WP:OR. You have to provide a source that clearly states that the Tsangon Pass was not in Illyria. I am not interested with your personal opinions. – Βατο (talk) 10:34, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

wp:OR applies to you since you didn't provide a source that states that the Tsangon Pass was in Illyria. A pass that leads to Illyria can not be interpreted as such. You understand that IDHT has its limits.Alexikoua (talk) 10:37, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The campaign of Alexander was in the region of Illyria, Wilkes' map reports it in Illyria, Papazoglu states that it was a common pass between southern Illyria and Lynchestis in Roman times. But I can't see a source that contrasts them. – Βατο (talk) 10:40, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

A common pass that connected two regions does not mean that it belonged to one of them or even both of them. Alexander reached Illyria after he passed Tsangon. You understand that none of those arguments supports your point here. Do I have to repeat the question?Alexikoua (talk) 13:08, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Alexander's campaign in Pelion, which involved the Tsangon Pass, was described as located in Illyria. The same Pass was involved in the Roman-Macedonian operations between the region of Illyria and Macedonia. It is relevant for the history of the region in antiquity, and also reported in Wilke's map of The Kingdom of the Illyrians, hence you can't remove it just because you don't like it. You haven't provided yet a source with a reason that can explain a possible removal of that toponym. – Βατο (talk) 13:55, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you to provide a source that states it was part of Illyria. So far you have not done that. Khirurg (talk) 16:27, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

There is Wilkes. There are also several others that state it was on the route between Illyria and Macedonia. It is relevant for the history of southern Illyria, there is no reason to remove it. – Βατο (talk) 16:28, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Not nearly explicit enough. He doesn't explicitly say it is "Illyria". The fact that it's on the map means nothing. Epiurs and Macedonia are only shown on that map - are they Illyrian? If we go that route, I can map a map of Epirus that shows a whole bunch of things you won't like as Epirus. You need a source that explicitly states the Tsangon pass was part of Illyria, and locates it where you placed it (Papazoglu doesn't). Khirurg (talk) 16:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Read the sources in Cangonj Pass#Bibliography. Historical events that are described as in relation to southern Illyria are enough to ensure its inclusion here. – Βατο (talk) 16:34, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, Wilkes is clearly explicit about it because he includes the specific area in his map Illyrian Lands, the one you used to remove M. Boion. – Βατο (talk) 16:43, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I suppose. Could you do me a favor and at least move the text so that it is NW of the pass symbol (on the "Illyrian side"), and not the "Macedonian side"? Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 16:48, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done. – Βατο (talk) 17:06, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

It's still into wp:OR even if we have the symbol on the west side this is still out of 3rd-2nd B.C Illyria. Bato edit warred that this map should not include "Ilryria and environs" but only "Illyria" so I don't see a reason why such links should be included: passes, mountains, roads that lead to Illyria and not Illyria, and especially no 3rd-2nd century Illyria. Illyrians invaded Macedonia, Corfu, Epirus at times this does not justify a similar inclusion. By the way why Ceraunia start with 'K'?Alexikoua (talk) 12:35, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: Could you also do the same for "Keraunia" (and replace the K with a C per common usage)? Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 19:35, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done – Βατο (talk) 20:31, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

There should be a specific footnote that those both names (Ceraunian & Tsangon) are regions that connect Illyria with other regions since there is a difficulty to find something that labels them as Illyrian regions in bibliography (as shown above). By the way why is Dardania included? S. Kos & Roisman-Worthington are quite clear that this region is not part of a south. Illyria.Alexikoua (talk) 18:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)