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Template talk:Track listing/Archive 13

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Latest comment: 10 years ago by Bollyjeff in topic Collapsibility
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Collapsibility

Latest comment: 10 years ago67 comments18 people in discussion

It seems that we should take the collapsible feature out of this template per WP:COLLAPSE since track listings are article content. MSGJ, you've edited this feature. Should we remove it now? Erik (talk | contribs) 22:57, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Erik. I see I made some edits in 2010 ("tweaks to collapsed section"). However the collapsed section seems to have been in this template since 2008, so I am not going to remove it based on a single request. I suggest you get a discussion going about this issue. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:44, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Support: I agree with removing it. Far too often it is used contrary to the stated uses in the documentation, and it's rarely actually necessary to collapse track listings. And as noted by Erik, it doesn't seem to comply with WP:COLLAPSE. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 18:58, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
'Support: There have been complaints in a few places about the collapsed content being problematic because: it can mask vandalism or mistakes for long periods, and it breaks ctrl-F (and equivalents) for searching for text within a page. –Quiddity (talk) 21:26, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Support - Support per my previous commentary at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility#Collapsing_music_track_lists. --Jax 0677 (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Comment the template is set up to appear expanded if its on a system that doesn't support collapsibility. I think many people aren't considering that certain soundtracks aren't primary topics, and are collapsed into another article that the soundtrack is related to. it makes it so that the tracklist doesn't take up the majority of the article. Maybe we shouldn't allow collapsibility for articles dedicated to a single release.Lucia Black (talk) 20:44, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

So we have solid policy-based support for this change (WP:COLLAPSE), as well as several other good reasons for this change. Can we move forward with removing it? MrMoustacheMM (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. someone tried to remove it not too long ago before this discussion was made, and it was based on the grounds of collapsibility, but even so, it was rejected because the template is auto-expanded, not auto-collapsed. So the reason why we have auto-collapse is so that those who aren't compatible with collapsed templates, would still be able to see it. And for the most part, even those who aren't compatible with the collapse template, can still see the tracklists even if its set to collapse. I would like for once to counter the idea.Lucia Black (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Support based on WP:COLLAPSE, as it is hiding article content that is not merely consolidating/summarizing content from the main text. – Mizery Made (talk · contribs) 20:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Follow-on

The above discussion was closed as a clear consensus to remove the collapsibility option from the template. Could you implement it now @MSGJ:? 81.183.18.228 (talk) 11:01, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Could you check the change I have made, and could someone update the documentation? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, looks to be working so far. I boldly updated the documentation, but if anyone wants to change/fix/undo what I did, feel free. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Well that's kind of a bummer. I have just such a case that was discussed above about it taking up a lot of space in an article not specifically about the album. See Hum Aapke Hain Koun..!. Of course, I did not see this discussion until now. I really don't see the harm in keeping it optional and defaulted to off. BollyJeff | talk 15:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Ugh, and it also kills the way to hind alternate versions of releases. See The_Love_Club_EP#Track_listing. Not cool! BollyJeff | talk 15:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I looked at both links, and both look fine. None of that information is hidden from the reader (which is good, it shouldn't be hidden), and that information isn't taking up an unreasonable amount of space. Both articles now are in accordance with WP:COLLAPSE. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 22:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Another one that I think got slopped up from this is Yuja Wang discography#Transformation (2010). I imagine this would be common to many classical albums that include classical pieces with numerous short movements, each not worth enumerating or viewing unless there is special interest in them. In this example, the piece Variations on a Theme by Paganini is a piece of 20 minutes or so, but in 27 recorded movements of less than 1 minute each, with almost-identical titles. There's no real value in showing all of these tracks; the better solution was displaying the line for the Variations piece itself, while allowing the individual tracks' information to be displayed if there is interest.

On the same page, with similar conditions: the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini on the Rachmaninov CD; one 24-minute piece, split into 26 tiny near-identically named tracks.

However, in general, this template is not a good fit for classical music. Another issue is that it puts the track names in quotes as if the track name is a song title, something that's rarely the case with classical music. TJRC (talk) 23:27, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I really dislike this change, it breaks a lot of pages. A lot of video game articles have been made much larger by it. Generally, soundtracks are included but collapsed. They're important, but not enough to warrant their own page. Most readers won't be viewing the article for the soundtrack and it takes up far too much room when taking that into consideration. See: Half-Life 2, Psychonauts, Black Mesa. Nicereddy (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm also against this change - it completely unbalances articles and sections that have a tracklist as a added bonus for the reader but where the tracklist isn't the main thrust of the article. It's just going to result in editors not including tracklists anymore in media articles due to aesthetics. --PresN 15:15, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
It appears that we have more dissenters now than supporters for the change. I think it is time to open this up for review again, and to a broader audience than just those that happen to be following this article (if that was the case the first time). BollyJeff | talk 15:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
It would be appreciated, seeing as the problems this has caused has lead myself, and I'm sure a few others, to this discussion where we wouldn't have found it previously. Nicereddy (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Have those who object taken the time to read WP:COLLAPSE, which was one of the main reasons of why this change was made? This change brings this template in line with COLLAPSE. I'm also surprised at these complaints; I've looked at several of the examples given above, and I haven't seen one article that looked worse with fully-expanded track listing templates. Every example has looked good – the track listings aren't hidden, and they aren't expanding the length of the articles to an unreasonable amount. This seems to me to be more of a reaction to the change itself, rather than any actual problems with those articles. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 16:35, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
You pretty much just summed up my thoughts on this. – Mizery Made (talk · contribs) 16:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that you are not able to see how much better those articles looked before the change, as I cannot either. It is possible that you are somewhat blinded to the negative effects because you were involved in making the change. Regarding WP:COLLAPSE, it is a policy that, just like any other, can itself be changed if there is consensus. BollyJeff | talk 17:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The fact that COLLAPSE was ignored in the "design" of these articles is no reason to ignore it now. Feel free to change that policy. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that COLLAPSE is a 4-sentence section in the MOS, and as such, is a guideline, not policy- editors are free to disregard it if they have a good reason. --PresN 19:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Restore Collapsibility

Many pages now look very horrible with the collapsibility feature removed. Several pages use that ability on track listings due to exclusive CDs not included anywhere else for eg The Sound of Music Live!#Soundtrack I can understand it not being needed for the main track listing but extra track listing like that for the soundtrack for The Sound of Music Live I think the collapse is a good feature for those types of situations. So can we please restore it so pages don't look stupid? 184.58.24.163 (talk) 13:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

There's a discussion above about these. It does not appear that this will happen. The issue is balancing visibility of information with visual aesthetics. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:56, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Some pretty good explanations have been given above by Bollyjeff, TJRC, Nicereddy, PresN, and now 184.58.24.163. More continue to chime in as they discover what has happened. It is time to take them seriously. What more is required? BollyJeff | talk 21:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
I haven't seen any good explanations, just "now they aren't collapsed any more, I don't like how it looks". Again, every example given above has looked perfectly fine. I haven't seen any explanations of why WP:COLLAPSE should not apply here: it is information that is not given elsewhere in the article, thus it should not be hidden. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 22:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) So "it's not pretty, it hurts my eyes" is a good explanation? That's very superficial and ignores accessibility and proper presentation of material. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
On the flip side, all I see is "it doesn't meet my interpretation of WP:ACCESS" (Even though no consensus was made when it was brought up there) and I "can't ctrl-f track names". An argument can be made that your side is ignoring actual accessibility and proper presentation, if you don't think visual presentation matters. --PresN 00:15, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Reply - MrMoustacheMM pretty much summed up my thoughts on this issue at 16:35 on January 22, 2014. BTW, would anyone be so kind as to comment on the potential splitting of Acid Mothers Temple? --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:15, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Quote from MrMoustacheMM on January 22, 2014 at 16:35 (in case others had trouble finding it, as I did): "Have those who object taken the time to read WP:COLLAPSE, which was one of the main reasons of why this change was made? This change brings this template in line with COLLAPSE. I'm also surprised at these complaints; I've looked at several of the examples given above, and I haven't seen one article that looked worse with fully-expanded track listing templates. Every example has looked good – the track listings aren't hidden, and they aren't expanding the length of the articles to an unreasonable amount. This seems to me to be more of a reaction to the change itself, rather than any actual problems with those articles." - MrMoustacheMM. Not including date of quote as that would confuse the order of the conversation. - Nicereddy (talk) 02:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Anyway, as said above, WP:COLLAPSE is a four-line section in the Manual of Style and is not a policy but a guideline which editors may stray from if they see reason to. I'd like to suggest the ability to add collapsability to the template manually on a per-article basis. This way it's not default, but can be used in cases where it takes up too much room that it isn't deserving of. Here are some examples of "problem articles": Half-Life 2's soundtrack section, Black Mesa's soundtrack section, Psychonauts' soundtrack section, The Last of Us' soundtrack section, and LA Noire's Music section. These all have a lot of use of white space in the margin because of their track listings. In these cases, the soundtrack isn't something which the majority of users would come looking for. It shouldn't take up the entire height of a browser window for articles which aren't directly related to music or soundtracks, especially since sometimes the majority of a column is taken up by the same composer's name repeated verbatim. While soundtracks should be included in movie, television, and video game articles as they are relevant, they aren't always worthy of taking up a large portion of the article. A disregard for form can hurt function in the same way a disregard for function can hurt form. While content is the point of Wikipedia, users don't behave as lab rats following the path we force them on and shouldn't be treated as such. The layman reading an article about Call of Duty doesn't need or want to know about the soundtrack, but the soundtrack also shouldn't be removed or given its own article. It's still important for some users, but those users are hardly inconvenienced by a single mouse click to open the track list. As I said previously, I would appreciate the ability to manually collapse-by-default on the part of editors in cases where the editor feels they're warranted in doing so. Otherwise, it would remain opened if left as the default template. Having a single rule for a template which finds use in a huge number of articles which call for multiple usages means that the template should be modular, moreso than it is at present. - Nicereddy (talk) 03:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
@Nicereddy: Re: "These all have a lot of use of white space in the margin" - I'm not sure that having content as densely packed as possible is necessarily a good thing.
Re: "It's still important for some users, but those users are hardly inconvenienced by a single mouse click to open the track list" - the same argument could be applied to much of the content in an article, eg. the The Last of Us#Awards section. The slippery slope leads to arguments about "should this section in this article be collapsed by default, or not". The same problem existed for the "influences/influenced" section in many infoboxes, which is a small part of why those elements were removed.
Re: "the ability to add collapsability to the template manually on a per-article basis" - that is already the case. The template is not collapsed by default, but is only collapsed if an editor adds the optional parameter "collapsed=yes".
I collated some of the reasons against using collapsible sections for content, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes/Evidence#Actions that are Not solutions, to which should be added that it breaks the "ctrl-F" function. HTH. –Quiddity (talk) 23:00, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Consider length the problem. Some soundtracks are additional information such as having an infobox and tracklist. but keep in mind that not all tracklist are important and are additional even in an article that is dedicated to a soundtrack. So the track listing could very well deviate the focus of the main article's aspect. And that's a valid issue because readers wouldn't want to scroll all the way down to get to the next piece of info.

There is reason enough to add collapsibility, so long as you add rules behind it. For example, if an article is dedicated to a single soundtrack and only has a single tracklist, collapsibility should not be used. However if there are multiple versions that go over 3, then they should be implemented. And if the article isn't dedicated to the soundtrack, tracklist may have collapsibility.Lucia Black (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

It is apparent to me, that there is no longer clear consensus for the collapsibility feature to be removed, so I have re-added it to the template. I would suggest a WP:RFC on this issue might be an idea, if people are willing to pursue it. I'll also advertise this discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:01, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
To those complaining that people who visit some particular article may not be interested in certain content (in this case, track listings): Is scrolling past that information really that hard? I've read articles on video games in the past, and when I got to an uncollapsed soundtrack track listing, if I didn't care, I simply scrolled past it to sections I did care about. I do the same when I come upon a section explaining the game's production history: I don't care about that, but I don't ask that it be collapsed or hidden from view just because it doesn't interest me, I simply scroll past it onto the parts of the article I do care about.
One of the main problems here seems to be that people liked how the articles looked before, and have decided that because it doesn't look their preferred way, that it now looks "bad" (or "horrible" – certainly not an over-reaction there). But as someone who reads film or video game articles from time to time (ie. as a casual reader of those articles, not an editor who actively edits those types of articles), when I look at the versions that existed without collapsing, they looked perfectly fine and readable to me. Again, when I got to parts that I didn't care about, I just scrolled past them. And that should be the most important criteria: Not whether any one editor personally finds the article aesthetically pleasing, but whether the article is readable and openly displays all information contained within. People have mentioned ignoring WP:COLLAPSE, but I haven't seen a good argument against using it, just "I prefer how it looks collapsed" or "not everyone wants to read about the soundtrack and is apparently too lazy to scroll past that information". So I'm still waiting: Is there an actual argument against COLLAPSE? A technical or policy-based reason to ignore it? MrMoustacheMM (talk) 18:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
It is always ignored. Go to FA class article Priyanka Chopra, scroll to the bottom and you will see a nice neat one-line template header called 'Awards and titles for Priyanka Chopra'. If you click [show] you will open up a universe of hidden information, much of which is not covered in the article, and it looks unappealing. The FA reviewers, as strict as they are, were not concerned with COLLAPSE, but I guarantee that if all those templates were opened, it would have failed. Stop getting so bent out of shape about this; User Nicereddy explained very well above why we should be allowed to make up our own minds about how to format our articles, and not be unnecessarily forced into doing it only one way. This is not the government. BollyJeff | talk 20:30, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I have not seen that FA reviewers are at all strict and they generally focus on spelling, grammar and visual appeal before they do compliance to guidelines and other MoSes. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:09, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
O-M-G. What are you fighting for if not to make articles that "exemplifies our very best work" - a quote from WP:Featured article criteria, which in number two says "It follows the style guidelines". I know from experience that it is no joke. BollyJeff | talk 22:31, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that tracklist aren't always primary information. so not all of them are as relevant.Lucia Black (talk) 01:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The "Awards and titles for Priyanka Chopra" are navboxes, and thus are unrelated to this discussion. Moreover, the only reason that "much of which is not covered in the article", is because it is covered at the sub-article List of awards and nominations received by Priyanka Chopra. –Quiddity (talk) 22:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


Restored?

Apparently there's no longer consensus. I didn't see it change, but I have seen some people complain. It should be removed until a new consensus is reached. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm seeing that five people agreed to remove collapsibility, and 6 users +1 ip disagreed as soon as it was implemented and made visible to a wider audience, which seems pretty much like no consensus to me. --PresN 18:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
It might be a good idea to list them and to summarize their arguments. As for me, don't put me in either camp. I was voicing what I felt the consensus was. I don't actually believe that COLLAPSE is being met since most of the material that is in a collapsed track listing is often not primary information: bonus tracks, re-packaged releases, releases in alternative markets, etc. While I don't agree that layout should be the primary concern, I also don't think that vital information is being hidden. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I haven't expressed my opinion here yet, but I'd like to say that I'm happy and relieved that this parameter was restored. The change affected multiple articles where collapsibility is used for listing bonus tracks, different versions of the albums, etc. One of the good examples is I Am... Sasha Fierce – without this parameter the track listing section was a complete mess. — Mayast (talk) 14:05, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I've yet to see an example that actually looks bad, including that one, when they're all expanded. – Mizery Made (talk · contribs) 19:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
It looks over lengthy. there are video game articles or film articles that have track listing as an extra but they are considerably large tracklist. and it has nothing to do with amount of scrolling but how much attention the tracklist has over the main subject.Lucia Black (talk) 23:35, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
This is a pretty good explanation of my opinion. Disregarding the fact that I "don't think it looks pretty", which I still think is at least a somewhat rational argument, the track listing is taking up more room than it should be considering that it's oftentimes not a major part of the article. It's very light on content, unlike actual sections with text and prose, and therefore I think collapsible functionality is perfectly fine to include. I don't think entire sections of text are equivalent to a track listing and equivocating the two makes for an illogical argument. -Nicereddy (talk) 02:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Here's a good example: Super Meat Boy. Featured Article. On my monitor, when the tracklists are expanded they take up literally 1/3 of the length of the article. The music section itself is only 1/9 of the article- 2 of 18 paragraphs, but the tracklists take up 5/3 screen heights compared to 4 screen heights for the rest of the (non-reference) text. That is massive undo weight with the tracklists expanded- you triple how heavy that section is, length-wise. --PresN 04:35, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
OK. And is it really that hard to just scroll past those track listings? Keep in mind WP:UNDUE applies to minority viewpoints in articles, not the amount of relevant content shown within an article. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 15:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
See the very next section, WP:BALASPS. And is it really that hard to just give in, let people have the feature, and end this discussion? BollyJeff | talk 15:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd also suggest that you look at that article the way a mobile user sees it. It both violates COLLAPSE and the navigating the article is a lot easier. (Yeah, I like to pop kids' balloons too.) When you get to the table in a mobile browser, it's never collapsed. It isn't laid-out correctly for mobile browsers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
What Lucia Black is saying is what I was saying. 184.58.24.163 (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I commented extensively above, and I won't repeat that here (but please read it, if you haven't yet).
However, a potential middle-path would be: Is it possible to increase the density of the tracklisting tables? They're currently "large" because of all the whitespace, particularly on 1024+ wide screens. Eg Super Meat Boy#Music could easily be 4 columns instead of 2 columns, which solves 50% of the annoyance... Just the same way that I Am... Sasha Fierce#Charts does it...
Also, changing the visual styling to be just a little bit more distinct, would help a lot with the problem of messiness at I Am... Sasha Fierce - it's mainly confusing/messy because the black&white box styling blends in too well. That goes for both collapsed and uncollapsed.
Think outside of the (collapsible) box! HTH. –Quiddity (talk) 01:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

That would work for smaller and simpler track listings. However, bigger tracklists that use up to 4 parameters or more make makes them more convoluted and difficult to read.Lucia Black (talk) 19:23, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

First, why are you suggesting ownership of an article by stating that it's your article?
That article is a clear example of why it should not be collapsed. The content is now hidden from view and it shouldn't be. Its aesthetics are secondary to the content. The GA reviewer is, as are most I've met, out of touch with what is and isn't important for suggesting anything about it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz Please WP:AGF, I had doubts, fearing whether the article would be failed because of that (you know, first GA, those fears loom somewhere) but it was not. The Infobox Album as you can see is pretty big and it cannot be collapsed therefore if the track listing is left opened, it veers into the next section. Before starting as a contributor, I don't know about you but I was a reader and it was a put off for me, these track-listings and infoboxes took time to load on my slow bandwidth. Therefore collapsing is more efficient and reader-friendly that way. What is the sole objective of wp? To create an encyclopedia! What would an encyclopedia be without its readers? Also you might want to check out WP:OWN#Statements, this film is the one I liked, the reason I came to edit Wikipedia and keeping in mind these I have always been pretty cautious so as to never to act as if I own the article. Thanks. Soham 17:46, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

If the first goal of creating an encyclopaedia, isn't the first goal of that to offer information? Why are we trying to hide that information. In my estimation. the use of collapse in that article is incorrect. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
What is another, secondary goal of a encyclopedia? Being organised. IMHO this function keeps the info organised. No one is hiding it, there is Show on right, depends on readers. Soham 14:45, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Being organized? It was not disorganized when I looked at it, but the primary goal is information. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:03, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I skimmed over the recently supplied example of Once Upon ay Time in Mumbai Dobaara!. The thing is, I got to the bottom page without noticing the track listing and I was specifically looking for it! Surely wouldn't of happened without collapse-ability. Just saying... – Mizery Made (talk · contribs) 15:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
This is not a good example, and I would not have collapsed this. There are many good examples already listed above. BollyJeff | talk 16:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
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