User:Andrewa/CERFC

General questions

These questions are intended to try to determine what you may consider the "baseline" between what should be considered "valid collegiate discourse" and what should be considered "violation of the civility policy" (incivility). Please be as specific as you can in your responses.

Written versus spoken communication

When one is physically present when speaking with another person, body language, intonation, setting, and other physical factors, can suggest the intent of words in a way that words written on a page cannot.

Collegiality

Example: if a person is having a casual conversation with friends over a table covered with beer glasses and one of them wishes to contest a point another has made they might prefect their remarks with "listen up asshole and I'll explain it to you." If they are smiling and raising a glass towards the person this remark is pointed, it can help the words to be taken in the lighthearted manner in which it was intended.

Should such interaction as noted in the example above be considered incivility in the collegiate, collaborative environment of Wikipedia? Should the talk page location matter (such as whether the discussion is on a user talk page, an article talk page, or Wikipedia project-space talk page)?

Reply: The relevant context in the example is not so much the locality as the history of the relationship. Even with good intent and a smile, this remark would be ill-advised and likely to be misunderstood if the two had just been introduced. Same with Wikipedia; In considering sanctions, the previous contact of the editors, and their previous contacts with others, are relevant. But similar comments are unnecessary in any case, and so should be discouraged in all situations. See WP:rhetoric.

Profanity

Should all profanity (such as the use of "bad words", "four letter words", "the Seven dirty words", etc.), be considered incivility?

Reply: Profanity should be a prima facie case for a charge of incivility, and discouraged in all cases as unnecessary and likely to hurt Wikipedia for little if any benefit. But the background should be considered before rushing to judgement. Adding a swear word to the talk page of a user who themselves repeatedly uses them on the same page is not always a bad thing. Users should be discouraged from profanity even on their own talk pages, but not censured too strongly if they have difficulty expressing themselves otherwise. Some templates for this mild caution (more of information than even warning), and to warn others reading the page, would be good.

All caps/wiki markup

There is an established convention when using technology to communicate through a typed format that WRITING IN ALL CAPS is considered "yelling" and is generally not acceptable. Individuals also sometimes use italics bolding green or other colored text or even enlarged text or other formatting code to attempt to indicate intonation, or to otherwise emphasize their comments.

Should there be limits as to when this type of formatting should be used in a discussion? Is there any type of formatting which should never be acceptable in a discussion?

Reply: Such formatting makes the text harder to read and less likely to be read. It should be discouraged by MOS-like standards designed to make talk pages work well. It should not be regarded as incivility prima facie but if part of a pattern of abuse is relevant. Frankly, if you don't want your comments to be readable, we don't want them either.

Formatting which is never acceptable is any that makes others' comments less readable. But that's perhaps not a civility issue.

Enforcement and sanctions

Responsibility for enforcement

Who is responsible for maintaining a civil environment for collegiate discussion? Should it be it the responsibility of administrators, the arbitration committee, the broader Wikipedia community, or some combination of these?

Reply: Everybody. Admins, anons, other contributors, and in need of course the WP:DR officials.

Appropriate sanctions

What sanctions, if any, do you think are appropriate for incivility? Should blocking be considered an appropriate response to incivility? Should topic banning or interaction banning be considered an appropriate response?

Reply: All of these have their place.

Context

Should the context of the situation be taken into account when considering whether to apply sanctions to the individual due to incivility?

Reply: Yes.

Severity

How severe should a single incident of incivility need to be to merit some sort of sanction?

Reply: By "sanction" I assume you mean a restriction such as a topic ban or block, rather than a mere warning. These are almost never appropriate for a first offence. Death threats and threats of legal action for example are actionable on the first offence, but little else. WP:AGF.

A gentle warning on a first offence, however, is far more beneficial than any warning on the second or subsequent ones. The more the pattern is established, the more difficult and unlikely change of behaviour will be. Again, some templates would help.

Instances of incivility

Should multiple instances of incivility in the same discussion be considered one offense or several? If a user is civil most of the time, but occasionally has instances of incivility, should these incidents be excused? If so, how often should such incivility be excused?

Reply: Incivility should always be discouraged. But the whole pattern is relevant. Multiple instances are multiple instances, and are worse than a single slip. A user who never contributes except to abuse others is far worse than one who is also sometimes helpful. And many grades in between.

Weighing incivility and contributions

Should the quality and/or number of contributions an individual makes outside of discussions have any bearing on whether an individual should be sanctioned due to incivility? Should the incidents of incivility be taken on their own as a separate concern?

Reply: The pattern should be considered, see Instances of incivility above.

Outcry

In the past, when an individual has been blocked from editing due to "violating the civility policy" (incivility), there has, at times, been an outcry from others concerning the block, and sometimes the block has been overturned subsequent to that outcry.

In an effort to reduce incidences of such an outcry ("drama"), should incivility be deprecated as an appropriate reason for blocking an individual? Should admins instead be required to have a more specific reason (such as personal attacks, harassment of another user, etc.), when blocking a user for incivility?

Reply: Repeated incivility is a legitimate cause for a block if other remedies have failed. I'm interested in seeing examples of this outcry.

AN/I prerequisite

Should a demonstrable consensus formed through discussion at WP:AN/I (or other appropriate forum) be required as a prerequisite to blocking an individual due to incivility? If so, should there be a minimum time frame for such discussions to remain open before the individual may be blocked?

Reply: WP:AN/I should be expected as a prereq to a block in all but the most severe cases. Perhaps even then, I'm not sure.

RFC prerequisite

A request for comment (RFC) gives the community the opportunity to discuss a behavioural concern (such as incivility) directly with the individual, with the intended goal of attempting to find a voluntary solution.

Should an RFC be required as a prerequisite for blocking a user of incivility? Should it be suggested and/or encouraged?

Reply: The problem I see is that some RfCs don't attract useful attention. The option should be there but it's fine to go straight to WP:AN/I and then to a block IMO.

Personal Attacks

Requests for adminship

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship (RFA) is a place where an editor requests the additional tools and responsibilities of adminship. In the discussion concerning the specific request, each commenting editor is to convey whether (and why) they would (or would not) trust the requester with those tools and responsibilities. Due to this, typically the requester's actions, behaviour, and contributions are noted, evaluated, and sometimes discussed.

Due to the nature of RFA (a question of trusting an individual), should it be considered necessary for the standards concerning personal attacks be somewhat relaxed at RFA? What, if any, should be the limits to this? How personal is "too personal" at an RFA? What types of criticisms cross the line between being considered merely an evaluation of a candidate and being considered an unwarranted attack? Should comments considered to cross that line be left alone, stricken, moved to the talk page, or simply removed altogether?

Reply: No, the existing policy at WP:NPA allows discussion of behavioral issues. To raise these is not a personal attack as we use the term. To raise these instead of addressing the issues is a personal attack. If that's not clear then the policy needs clarification, not relaxation.

Attacking an idea

The Wikipedia community has a long tradition of not tolerating personal attacks. However, it may be difficult to differentiate whether an individual is commenting on a user's ideas or is commenting on the user themselves. The same is true concerning whether an individual may understand a particular idea.

How should this be determined? Should any of the following be considered a personal attack? Should any of these comments be considered the kind of incivility that we should not tolerate on Wikipedia?

"That idea is stupid"

"That is idiotic"

"That is yet another one of <username of proposer>'s stupid ideas and should be ignored"

"You don't understand/misunderstand"

"You aren't listening"

"You don't care about the idea"

Reply: Any of these could be personal attacks, the third is an ad hominem and almost certainly a personal attack. But we need to know the context to judge a good response. None of them are likely to be particularly helpful, in any context.

Rate examples

In this section example comments will be presented. You are asked to evaluate each comment on the following scale:

1 = Always acceptable
2 = Usually acceptable
3 = Acceptability entirely dependent on the context of specific situation
4 = Usually not acceptable
5 = Never acceptable

Proposals or content discussions

I assume you realize how foolish this idea sounds to the rest of us

rating: 4

Typical of the foolishness I have come to expect from this user

rating: 5

After looking over your recent edits it is clear that you are incompetent.

rating: 5

Anyone with a username like that is obviously here for the wrong reasons

rating: 5

You seem to have a conflict of interest in that you appear to be interested in a nationalist point of view.

rating: 2

It is obvious that your purpose here is to promote your nationalist point of view.

rating: 4

You are clearly here to support your nationalist point of view, Wikipedia would be better off without you.

rating: 5

This is the stupidest proposal I have seen in a very long time.

rating: 3

Whoever proposed this should have their head examined

rating: 5

I don't know how anyone could support such an idiotic proposal.

rating: 5

This proposal is retarded.

rating: 5

The person who initiated this discussion is a moron.

rating: 5

This proposal is crap.

rating: 4

This proposal is a waste of everyone's time.

rating: 2

What a fucking waste this whole discussion has been

rating: 4

A shitty proposal from a shitty editor.

rating: 5

The OP is a clueless idiot.

rating: 5

Please just stop talking, nobody is listening anyway.

rating: 5

Just shut up already.

rating: 5

File your sockpuppet investigation or STFU.

rating: 5

Shut your fucking mouth before you say something else stupid.

rating: 5

admin actions

The blocking admin has a long history of questionable judgements.

rating: 1

The blocking admin needs to be desysopped of this is representative of their decision making abilities.

rating: 1

The blocking admin is well known as an abusive rule nazi.

rating: 5

I'm sure their admin cronies will just censor me like they do to anyone who points out the hypocrisy of all WP admins, but this was a terrible block.

rating: 3

How could anyone with a brain in their head think it was ok to issue a block like this?

rating: 4

Possible trolling

Your comments look more like trolling to me.

rating: 1

Stop trolling or I will find an admin to block you.

rating: 2

All I can say about this user is "obvious troll is obvious".

rating: 2

Go troll somewhere else.

rating: 5

Somebody block this troll so those of us that are here in good faith can continue without them.

rating: 3

removal of comments

(Assume all removals were done by a single user and are not part of a suppression action for privacy, libel, etc)

Comment removed from conversation with edit summary "removed off topic trolling"

rating: 5

Comment removed from a conversation and replaced with <redacted> or {{RPA}}

rating: 3

Entire discussion closed and/or collapsed using {{hat}} or other such formatting

rating: 3

Comment removed from a conversation and replaced with "redacted twattery, don't post here again" with posting users signature still attached

rating: 5

Comment removed from conversation and replaced with File:DoNotFeedTroll.svg

rating: 3

Enforcement scenarios

The general idea that Wikipedians should try to treat each other with a minimum of dignity and respect is widely accepted. Where we seem to have a serious problem is the enforcement or lack thereof of this ideal. This section will submit various scenarios and ask to you to suggest what an appropriate response would be. Possible options include:

ignoring it
warning the users involved
WP:RFC, WP:ANI, or other community discussions,
blocking, either indefinitely or for a set period of time
topic or interaction banning
Any other response you feel would be appropriate

Please bear in mind that what is being asked for is not what you believe would happen but what you believe should happen.

Scenario 1

Two users are in a dispute regarding the name of a particular article on a geographic region. The debate is long and convoluted, and the motivations of the two users unclear to those unfamiliar with the topic. They have not used any form of dispute resolution to resolve the content dispute. They have not edit warred in the article but the discussion on the talk page has gotten extremely long and seems to be devolving into the users accusing one another of having ethnic/nationalist motivations. One users has said "You only believe that because you were educated in the Fubarian school system which filled your head with their lies." To which the other user replies "That is exactly what I would expect from someone who live in Kerzbleckistan. Everyone knows that Fubaritol has always been part of our great empire. Only Kerzblecki fat heads believe it isn't. "

Response: A template usable by any user gently suggesting that they both take a Wikibreak. The template should be able to be placed on either user talk page or both, should put both user talk pages in a category or provide some other means of notifying those who choose to watch for such discussions, and should link to a bot to make sure the other user is informed if the template is placed on only one user page. It should have a mandatory parameter identifying the other user and an optional parameter linking to a diff.

Scenario 2

A long term user is blocked for edit warring. The proof that they did edit war is clear and obvious. On their talk page they are hosting a discussion regarding the block but are not formally appealing it using the unblock template. The blocking admin, seeing this discussion of their actions, attempts to explain that they are not making a value judgement on the appropriateness of the edits, just doing their job by enforcing the edit warring policy. The blocked user removes the admins actual comments but leaves their signature attached to the phrase "asshattery removed". Several of the blocked users friends comment on what a dumb block it is, how the blocking admin is a disgrace, that they should be desysopped, and so on. The blocking admin comments again, asking that they either be allowed to participate in the discussion or that their comments and all discussion of them be removed entirely, not replaced with an insult with his signature attached to it. The blocked user again removes the admin's comments and adds the same insulting phrase in their place.

Response: An uninvolved admin should extend the block, possibly not by much but just to make it clear that this behaviour is unacceptable. Or depending on their assessment of the reasons for the block and any other problems with this user, the block could be extended significantly or made stronger (disable talk page edits and restore the original admin's commments for example), but should not be reduced. A reminder that the block has not been appealed, with instructions on the procedure, should also be posted.

Scenario 3

A user is apparently an expert in the field of eighteenth-century horse drawn carriages. Practically every word Wikipedia has on this subject was written by them. Their content contributions are generally above reproach. Unfortunately they are also extremely abrasive in interpersonal conversations. They routinely tell any user who disagrees with them to fuck off, that they were obviously educated in a barn, that their ignorance is matched only by what a douchebag they are, and so forth. They also exhibit a tendency to actually be on the correct side of an argument when they are at their most abrasive. They apparently believe that this excuses their condescension and insults. One such incident is brought up at WP:ANI. It is approximately the fifteenth time such an incident has occurred. Again, the user is making excellent content contributions and is probably right as to the facts of the actual dispute, but they have verbally abused the user who disagrees with them, insulting their intelligence and using profanity. An admin decides to block them for chronic incivility about three hours into the conversation at the noticeboard.

Response: This situation is probably not recoverable, and illustrates exactly why early intervention is preferable. The user should be warned that if they cannot amend their behaviour they will be banned. Unfortunately the only likely result is a ban.

However I also consider this situation unlikely. It is far more likely that such a user will be particularly hard on unsourced contributions but will at the same time provide completely inadequate (or even false) sources for their own contributions, and will be often right but sometimes completely wrong and/or POV. And it is very hard to identify such contributions, particularly when the contributor has a good personal library of sources not available online to quote and at times misquote. So perhaps they are not so valuable a contributor as they seem.

Scenario 4

Users A and B are in a dispute. They have already stated their positions many times each. As previously uninvolved users begin commenting on the situation user A stops commenting on the relevant talk page. User B opens a thread on user A's user talk page relating to the dispute and challenging user A's position. User A posts a reply indicating they feel they have stated their position enough times and they do not see any purpose in continuing. User B replies, asking for more details about some aspect of the dispute. User A closes the discussion on their talk page and in both a closing comment and their edit summary they say "User B please stop posting here." User B posts again anyway. User A removes their comments and in their edit summary they write "Stay the fuck off my fucking talk page, LIKE I SAID ALREADY."

Response: User B should be politely told that any further updates to A's talk or other user pages will constitute harassment. User A should be allowed to cool down with no criticism made or implied. There should be a mechanism for either user A or B to instigate, at some future time and through a third party, a process to have B invited to edit A's page(s) again if both so desire, but pending such a process the restriction is in theory indefinite, but unlikely to be enforced indefinitely unless there are other problems. And we move on.

Scenario 5

A user is unfailingly civil in their on-wiki interactions with other users. They have never been blocked. Yet it is discovered that on an off-wiki forum dedicated to discussing Wikipedia they constantly make grossly insulting profane remarks about other WP users. Another user emails them asking about this discrepancy, and they receive an email reply through the Wikipedia email system that is equally insulting and profane. When the issue is brought up at WP:ANI the user is again perfectly polite. They openly acknowledge that they are in fact the user making the comments on the off-wiki forum, and that they sent an insulting email. They feel none of that is relevant as their on-wiki communication has been above reproach.

Response: The user should be told unequivocally that off-wiki comments arising from discussion here and/or identifying other users are regarded just as seriously as on-wiki comments.

Scenario 6

(Please bear in mind that this is a hypothetical scenario, not a description of the current situation)

The Wikipedia community is in a time of crisis. Arguments about civility are leading to more and more disruption and the project seems in danger of losing many long time contributors as a result. In desperation, the community decides to appoint one user to modify WP:CIVIL in any way they see fit in order to resolve these issues and restore order. In their wisdom they select you as that person.

Response: My acceptance would be conditional on also being allowed to restore the previous nutshell Comment on content, not on the contributor to WP:NPA. It is a powerful principle which we sacrificed to our cost.

Comments

Please use this section for any additional comments, observations, recommendations, etc.

I have been the victim of several incivility incidents over the years, and none of them have been satisfactorily resolved in my opinion.

With some years experience as an auditor I have a thick skin I think. Just as well, one of my first contributions was vandalised (there is no other word) by an admin who escaped all censure for it. One other admin commented words to the affect of their conduct is normally fine which seemed to imply that on this occasion it was not fine but they lacked the guts to say it.

But I have hung in there. Many others have not.